I Need Your Help!!!

[K9soul]

i think it is just a "you giving me crap" ill get you back thing"

I strongly disagree. I do not believe dogs think this way. That is putting human thoughts into a dog's head. It's more likely an insecurity behavior for some reason, but it's hard to really pinpoint it without being there and watching her. I do NOT believe dogs take "revenge" this way. If she is getting scolded a lot, she could be frightened and insecure. I would not use a gruff scolding personally. I would use positive training. I'd keep a treat pouch and call and treat her lots, and if you catch her on the bed, rather than scold or punish, call her and treat/praise her each time. A vet check isn't a bad idea either.

I also feel like if she's being given a lot of opportunity to go where she isn't supposed to and no one is around to redirect her, it's going to be pretty hard to teach her that she is not allowed in the room in this situation.

You say she sits down and urinates. Does that mean you have witnessed it each time? Perhaps she is getting caught on the bed, sees you, is afraid of being punished/scolded, and submissive urinates? My boy Tommy used to have a real issue with submissive urination. If this is the case scolding and yelling could make it even worse.

Like I said though, it is hard to understand without not really being there and witnessing her behaviors. Whatever you do though, please do not interpret it as a defiant/intentional behavior.

[luvofallhorses]

well said, K9Soul.. I would take her to the vet to see if there's anything wrong with her.

[Lori Jordan]

You telling me your dog has never been distructive?

[Lori Jordan]

My dogs do things like that all the time if we leave them home alone they will pull papers off the computer desk and rip them up or,Get into the garbage,and the thing of instead of scolding i do not mean hit them byt a stern "That's Bad" by giving them treats only makes them think they have done something right when really they havent.When i took my guys to Obedience i switched to a different one,because she was all about treats,training them fine but when they have already learned what to do or how to do it,they should do on command and not do it jus for a treat.Just like my Border Collie she is in trials and i cannot be out in the field with her giving her treats all through her steps.It just dont work that way.
Dont get me wrong my guys always have treats,bones toys,all the time but im i guess different with my dogs then you are yours that is why it is good hearing different ways and techniques because we all do things differently .When your dogs pees on the bed ,you know what she listens too and reacts to different tones of your voice you will just have to see what works for her best.

[K9soul]

I just don't have the time to address all the issues being brought up here, except to say training with treats and using positive rewards does not mean that your dog will never do anything without treats. Many, many agility and working dogs are trained with treats or a favorite toy or some kind of reward. For SOME dogs (it seems especially highly energetic and work-driven dogs), just the work itself is reward. Treat training can be VERY successful and reliable. Clicker training proves that (clicker training and treat training go together.) The key thing here is knowing how to phase treats out and/or make it a more random/occasional reward.

Destructive behavior has nothing to do with getting revenge. A dog that tears up something when you are away isn't doing it because he/she is mad at you and getting back at you, he/she is doing it out of boredom or anxiety or playfulness.

Anyway, here are a few links that explain some things in hopes it may provide some help.

About treat training
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/ar...id=202&aid=181

About clicker training
http://www.clickertraining.com/train...m=what_is_ct_s

Myths about clicker/treat training
http://www.dogschool.co.uk/myths.htm

Placing human emotions on dogs (such as the dog is getting revenge or is mad at me)
http://www.thepetprofessor.com/artic...cle.aspx?id=92

[K9soul]

That last article says so much of what I want to say here that I'm just going to copy and paste it here for anyone who doesn't feel like following the link:

Placing Human Emotions on Dogs

Have you ever heard someone say or perhaps you’ve caught yourself saying, “My dog knows he did wrong”, or how about this, “My dog knows he’s guilty”, or better yet “My dog did that just to spite me because he’s mad at me.” I’m here to tell ya that dogs don’t think like that. What we’re doing is placing human emotions on our dogs to explain their behavior. Dogs respond in the moment to their physical surroundings, available resources, and social pressures. They don’t sit there and think, “you know, I didn’t like it when Dad/Mom yelled at me earlier today so I’m going to rip out their cable line attached to the house and I’m going to do it when they least expect it. I’ll show them!” Dogs just don’t think like that. Although we all have very smart dogs, they don’t sit there and think out plans of revenge.

What’s really happening is dogs are opportunists looking for opportunities to take, possess, and/or guard resources. In the above example with the cable wire, it’s much simpler behavior that’s being expressed than an outrageous act of revenge. The dog has too much unsupervised time outside with fun toys available for him to amuse himself with. Trust me, I know this personally. I looked out the window one day to find my young German Shepherd ripping out my professional grade landscape edging. I’m here to tell ya, my dog Zena lives a pampered dog’s life with plenty of food, exercise, and massages. There isn’t anything that she could possibly be upset about with me. In fact, she adores me so much I sometimes question if she knows she’s a dog. But lets stick to one topic for discussion here.

In a dog’s mind, Zena found the largest tug toy there is, 20 feet of edging material. And, better yet this toy was hidden treasure since it was partly buried in the ground. What an adventure it must’ve been for her. It reminded me of the time when my brother and I were young kids digging a hole to visit China. Jimmy, as I called him back then, was looking down into our huge hole when I raised the shovel to take out another load of dirt. We were positive China would soon appear. Unfortunately, the shovel connected with the bridge of my brother’s nose. To this day, he still reminds me of having scarred him since boyhood. I just wish he would understand that at age 5, I didn’t know one should first go to Engineering school prior to constructing a tunnel. I’m happy to report though, while he may not have forgotten that tragic expedition experience, he has since forgiven me. Thank you Jim.

But let’s go back to Zena. She was expressing the zest for life and adventure as my brother and I had in our earlier days. She was having the time of her life and I couldn’t help but marvel at her commitment to remove that toy from the ground. She was tugging with all her might on one end of the edging material having successfully exposed 15 feet of it. With another tug or two, she certainly would remove the remaining 5 feet still buried in the ground. If I hadn’t spent so much time and sweat installing that “tug toy”, I think I would have found myself cheering her on. But instead, it really wasn’t that funny when I thought about the work it would take to replace what she had removed.

Okay so what did I do? Well I certainly didn’t replace that edging where she could perform another search and destroy mission time and time again. My mistake was failing to anticipate her commitment and resolve to amuse herself in my absence. And, while the edging material was there prior to her coming into my life, I couldn’t expect her to make this extirpation. That would be placing a human emotion on her. Instead, I used the edging material in another part of my landscape that isn’t accessible to her and I purchased a large jolly ball (a tough but still flexible rubber ball). She loves to pounce on that ball, carry it around and throw it just so she can go chase it again. And, that one ball which seemed expensive at the time (approximately $24.00) was a drop in the bucket. It certainly saved me much more money, sweat and tears from having other landscape objects destroyed.

Zena was being a dog operating in the moment, which is one of the reasons I love her so much. In a world that we find ourselves pondering the motive behind another person’s behavior towards us; it’s reassuring to know my dog is perfect at being a dog. Instead of blaming her for finding a truly wonderful tug toy, I found her a new appropriate toy to occupy her time and energy.

So the next time you find yourself considering your dog’s unacceptable behavior as a well planned out and executed act of revenge consider the following question. When my dog is being “good”, did he/she sit there and think “you know its my owner’s birthday tomorrow, so I am going to be extra nice because I love them so and this is what they would want me to do?” I’m sorry to inform you they don’t have this forethought either. Instead, they are fun loving opportunists thinking and acting in the moment and I hope this helps to reformat the way we unfairly place human emotions on dogs.

Article submitted by: © Michael Burkey

[4theloveofzoe]

Thanks everyone.

she's been on my bed before and laid there w/o peeing.

No I haven't ever caught her urinating, but she leaves behind a HUGE puddle.

[Vela]

I also agree with K9soul. Dog's just don't do things that way. We put human emotions such as anger and resentment on them that they just don't possess. You need to think like a dog with siutations like this. YOu can either move the toys and keep your bedroom door shut, or like someone else mentioned, for now keep a piece of noisy plastic or a shower curtain on the bed so that if she jumps up she won't like the sound, and if she does jump up and pee, then your bed is protected. You would be better off trying to keep the door closed though. I agree also that if you are seeing her do this there is a good possibility she is scared when she sees you and she is on the bed and pees out of fear at the time.

Being destructive doesn't mean they are trying to "get you back". They aren't like people. Most likely a dog who has done something destructive either likes playing with or chewing on whatever they destroyed, or was very bored. My guess is the dog is confused and peed on the bed out of submissive/fear urination. Dog's don't have "revenge" thoughts in that way.

[dab_20]

I strongly disagree. I do not believe dogs think this way. That is putting human thoughts into a dog's head. It's more likely an insecurity behavior for some reason, but it's hard to really pinpoint it without being there and watching her. I do NOT believe dogs take "revenge" this way.

I agree. Dogs simply do not think the way we do, and they don't think about 'getting back' at you.

I would recommend seeing a vet, also. Good luck!

[4theloveofzoe]

Well, I took her in to see her vet yesterday.

She can't find anything physically wrong with her.

She thinks that it's a jealousy issue also. I'm moving upstairs into my daughters bedroom, and then she'll be moving downstairs. So we'll see if that ends her bad behavior.

[bckrazy]

Jessica, you gave AWESOME advice thanks for that! I really agree with everything you had to say, and you definitely put a lot of time into helping Lori out.

Lori Jordan, I must admit I'm confused by what you've said... personally, I go to positive reinforcement training ONLY. My BC had a bit of a destructive streak when he was younger, and even though it's tempting, scolding them for that is almost always useless and just alienates your pup. He would tear up whatever when he was left alone, and we discovered that was because he was understimulated and had slight seperation anxiety. Now, we always exercise him thoroughly before leaving, give him stimulating toys (like stuffed Kongs and Buster Cubes) to work on, and we worked through the SA. If I scold my BC for anything he completely shuts down, so for me I use nothing but rewards, basically. I used to have a trainer, when he was young, who recommended prong collars and fine choke chains to use on him during Flyball training... and all he would end up doing is jerking so hard on the choker that he yelped loudly in pain. NOW, he will be wearing a harness and off-leash, and he'll be focused on me while dogs race right behind him, and that isn't due to negative reinforcement or yelling, it's due to teaching him "watch" - with or without a treat or toy lure. I really don't want my dogs to listen to me and focus on me based on fear of what might happen if he disobeys, our bond has gotten SO much closer since he instead is focused on the praise and fun he gets when he does what I want from him.

Border Collies, especially, tend to really thrive off of pleasing their owner, so once you do show them what IS right and you take care of THEIR needs, they are very happy well-adjusted dogs. Gonzo has full run of the house when we're gone, and a few times my Mom has forgotten to take out the garbage and left it sitting in the kitchen. It's always untouched when we get back because he knows what is GOOD to do when he's alone. I guess everyone finds what works for them, but I honestly never use treats during Flyball, only praise and tug rewards when he does good. And he is so much more focused and obedient than the owners who scream/scold at their dogs and use chokers/haltis/etc to control them.