Say No To Silver Labs

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

Think before you speak people. A lot of breeds come in perfectly sound colour combinations that simply aren't often liked by show breeders. Take for instance the cocker spaniel. There is no link between health problems and white pigmentation but the show breeders don't like them to have more the 85% white. A cocker can be a representative of the standard and have 87% white, but it won't be shown. Likewise, a labrador can come in dilute chocolate "silver" and still fit the standard, but breeders just don't like the colour. Currently its rebellious breeders who either breed for money or don't care about showing labradors that are breeding silvers. There is something wrong with the for-profit breeders, but there is Nothing wrong with the labrador that comes in this colour. Here's further reading...

The AKC Stand on Registration of Silver Labradors:

Response of Jack Norton of the AKC on 1/24/00 giving AKC official position on the issue of Silver Labs.

The registry of the American Kennel Club is based on parentage and not the coat color of a member of any breed.

In 1987 the AKC, in corporation with the Labrador Retriever Club of America, conducted an inquiry into the breeding of litters that contained members that were registered as silver. An AKC representative was sent to observe these dogs. The report and color photographs of these dogs were reviewed by AKC staff and representatives of the Labrador Retriever Club of America. Both Parties were satisfied that there was no reason to doubt that the dogs were purebred Labrador Retrievers, however they felt that the dogs were incorrectly registered as silver. Since the breed standard at the time described chocolate as ranging in shade form sedge to chocolate, it was felt that the dogs could more accurately be described as chocolate rather than silver. This remains the current policy of the American Kennel Club.

Jack Norton
Special Services Dept

* One last note, at one point in time, the yellow labrador was in the same position as silver. They had to push to get the yellow lab accepted.

WHEN I REFERED TO HEALTH ISSUES, I WAS TALKING ABOUT HYP AND ELBOW DISPLASIA AND OCULAR PROBLEMS. WHEN WE MAKE INLINE BREEDINGS, (BROTHER TO SISTER, FATHER TO DAUGHTER) WE REINFORCE SOME HEALTH ISSUES THAT, IF THEY WERE NOT PRESENT IN THAT GENERATION, WOULD BE MORE LIKELY TO APPEAR IN THE NEXT ONE.

ABOUT COLOR....NO ONE HAS EVER DOCUMENTED HAVING A SILVER LAB FROM PUREBRED LABRADORS. THERE HAS BEEN SOME RECORDS ON BLACK AND TANS, AND A FEW "CHOCO CHIPS" LABS (YELLOW BRED TO CHOCOLATE PRODUCES A WEIRD PIGMENTATION).
SOME PEOPLE CLAIM THAT YELLOW "SUDDENLY" APPEARED BETWEEN BLACKS, AND THEN CHOCOLATES CAME UP BETWEEN YELLOWS. THAT'S KINDA FUNNY, CONSIDERING THAT CHOCOLATES WERE DOCUMENTED TEN YEARS BEFORE THE YELLOWS.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THE TESTS THAT THE AKC PEOPLE MADE TO THE PARENTS OF THE SO CALLED SILVER LABS, WE'RE NOT VERY RELIABLE SINCE THERE WE'RE NOT ANY DNA TESTINGS. EVEN NOW, DNA TESTING IS TOO SPECIFIC TO LET US KNOW IF THE PUPPY COMES FROM OTHER BREEDS MIXINGS. (LAB-WEIMARANER)

PLEASE....READ THE WHOLE PAGE, BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, LET YOUR EYES AND KNOWLEDGE BE THE JUDGES TO THIS SILVERLABS. SOME OF THEM WILL LOOK LIKE A LAB, BUT THAT'S BECAUSE IT DOES COME FROM A LAB BRED TO A WEIMARANER. MOST OF THEM LOOK MORE LIKE WEIMARANERS.

[CagneyDog]

NO ONE HAS EVER DOCUMENTED HAVING A SILVER LAB FROM PUREBRED LABRADORS

Actually, I believe there has been. As far as I know their diluted choclates.

[sammy101]

As far as I know their diluted choclates.

yes that is always what i heard. some i see dont look like weims at all?
these ones look very much lab to me
http://www.silverlabs.com/gallery.htm

[CagneyDog]

DNA testing has been done to prove they are pure bred. They've also studied the genetic makeup and have ruled out that Wemenier are cross bred in them. AKC accepts them as chocolate labs.

[emilysgk]

I can see it in them dogs from the gallery posted. There heads are not quite right, and the ears. I somewhat see the difference in the bodies also. To some, a lab is a lab is a lab, but the people who know differently are looking at more specific points on the dog that are not right. If all the silver labs were the *charcoal* variety...then maybe it would be much more believable that they came from nothing but pure labs. It looks to me like some are getting smart with it and have breed just right with enough generations that they are starting to look really close to the real thing. How do you think new breeds and colors were ever created? You keep breeding them the way you want them, with enough time, no fail you get your desired result. Its not there at all yet. To preserve the lab as it should be, this needs to stop. Unfortunatly, most typical pet owner know nothing about breeding, nor the standards a dog should fit, and a large majority may not even care. They want what they want. This is much worse than the cross breeds being sold, the doodles and such, because they are being passed as pure.

I dont agree with people buying up the fancy new mixes, but at least they are being sold as what they are. Then again I could be way off...how can something be this bad, and go this far, and the AKC never be able to find a way to stop it? There are a lot of rules with breeders, and with trouble afoot your not going to be able to register your pups.... so I am undecided in that manner. But I do agree that the labs certainly look mixed to me.

[AllAmericanPUP]

I DO NOT agree with breeding silver labs, they shouldnt be bred and they certainly shouldnt be bred for money like these breeders are doing.

labs can come in alot of mismarks
i think there was a link posted about mismarked labs on here? or maybe that was a different board...

here is something on black and tan labs
http://cdc.guidingeyes.org/Adoptions/pdf2.pdf

and here is a site about other mismarks
http://www.blueknightlabs.com/mismarks/

[.sarah]

Here are two more links for mismarks if anyone is interested.
Mismarks 1 & Mismarks 2

Also, a link from the same website about Silver Labs
The Truth Behind "Silver" Labradors

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

DNA testing has been done to prove they are pure bred. They've also studied the genetic makeup and have ruled out that Wemenier are cross bred in them. AKC accepts them as chocolate labs.

SOME RESPONSES TO SOME OF THE SILVER LABRADOR CLAIMS
One of the Silver breeders state on their site:

"Are Silver Labs Pure bred Labrador Retriever?
DNA testing and mapping of silver labs was done during the close of the Twentieth Century and meticulous investigation of each silver labs ancestry was conducted by investigators from AKC"

The current DNA testing doesn't prove the dog is a purebred Labrador. The DNA testing available only proves that dog A and that dog B are the parents of dog C. No where does it prove that the one or more of the grandparents of dog A wasn't a weim or a weim cross.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Also one states:

"Silver Labs are pure bred Labrador Retrievers and their ancestry is beyond reproach. Fortunately, kennel clubs around the world do not have the political pressure from mercenary American breeders of "normal" colored labs and already accept silver labs without all the political fuss and pressure being applied to AKC "

Sorry but there isn't a kennel club in the world that recognizes silver Labradors. In every Labrador standard used throughout the world, it states that Labradors come in black, yellow and chocolate.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

This one was a laugher:

"There is no doubt the increase in popularity and demand for Silver Labs is applying significant financial pressure to breeders of black and yellow labs, but there is also little doubt that AKC will eventually have to succumb to the pressure to make silver a recognized color in America."

First of all, the AKC doesn't make the decision on what colors are recognized for each breed. The PARENT CLUB of each breed makes and sets the standards. I can guarantee you that it will be a cold day in you-know-where before the LRC, Inc. would ever recognize this color.

Second of all, as to the "significant financial pressure" that I and other breeders of the "real" colors of Labradors are under - BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! A responsible breeder never breeds for a "color" nor does one breed because of financial reasons. Most responsible breeders don't worry about profit. Why? Because we rarely if ever make one and we do not breed for financial gain.

So you can see that all these claims by the Silver Lab people are far-fetched at best.

[cali]

as far as I am concerned restricting breeds to certain colours is wrong. period. colour has very little to do with what any breed was bred for, BCs colours are restricted to only a few and are not allowed to be mostly white, the conformation world came up with a bogus explaination for it, saying that mostky white BCs dont command the sheeps respect, which is a load of bull, some of the top herding lines in the world are mostly white. they also come in EVERY single colour and markings avaliable in dogs, no colour should be bred for or bred away from, because it has zippo to do with working ability.

I am on the working side of the fence for all breeds, anything that does not affect working ability is NOT nessassary, but if it inhibates working ability(like super long and fluffy coats, shorts muzzles and overly stocky builds) then it needs to be bred away from and avoided.

[sammy101]

as far as I am concerned restricting breeds to certain colours is wrong. period. colour has very little to do with what any breed was bred for, BCs colours are restricted to only a few and are not allowed to be mostly white, the conformation world came up with a bogus explaination for it, saying that mostky white BCs dont command the sheeps respect, which is a load of bull, some of the top herding lines in the world are mostly white. they also come in EVERY single colour and markings avaliable in dogs, no colour should be bred for or bred away from, because it has zippo to do with working ability.

i agree with you.

[.sarah]

as far as I am concerned restricting breeds to certain colours is wrong. period. colour has very little to do with what any breed was bred for, BCs colours are restricted to only a few and are not allowed to be mostly white, the conformation world came up with a bogus explaination for it, saying that mostky white BCs dont command the sheeps respect, which is a load of bull, some of the top herding lines in the world are mostly white. they also come in EVERY single colour and markings avaliable in dogs, no colour should be bred for or bred away from, because it has zippo to do with working ability.

I am on the working side of the fence for all breeds, anything that does not affect working ability is NOT nessassary, but if it inhibates working ability(like super long and fluffy coats, shorts muzzles and overly stocky builds) then it needs to be bred away from and avoided.

Did you read through this thread? These dogs are most likely bred with Weimeraner. If they are mixed breeds, do you still support it?

[.sarah]

DNA testing has been done to prove they are pure bred.

That is not true. DNA testing cannot prove breed. If they were cross-bred with Weim in most cases it was too far back to prove the breed (the parents would be dead, all DNA testing can do is prove the parents).

They've also studied the genetic makeup and have ruled out that Wemenier are cross bred in them. AKC accepts them as chocolate labs.

Not saying you're wrong, but where did you read this? I have seen everything say the exact opposite. As far as I know they are *still* studying to try to prove or disprove the Wiem is in them. AKC accepts them as Chocolate Labs because silver is not an approved color and breeders say that they are dilute chocolate. AKC does not look at the puppies that are registered, therefor you could easily pass a silver as chocolate on registration papers, the same way I could have marked Nova as a black or chocolate -- they'd have never known. If you look in the breed standard, chocolate is described as "light to dark chocolate", not "dilute chocolate" (silver).

these ones look very much lab to me
http://www.silverlabs.com/gallery.htm

I'm not sure how familiar you are with Labs. I am very familiar though I wouldn't call myself an expert (by no means could I judge them in conformation!) but those dogs definetly don't look like Labs to me. To an untrained eye, yes, I can see where they would look like a Lab. But they look very unproportional in head to body ratio, and their heads just ... aren't right. They still look Weim-ish to me, and that's really the only way I can explain it.

emilysgk, I agree with what you said completely!

[Jessika]

I've heard of them before actually and after some reading on another forum discovered that "silver labs" genetically can't even exist!

"Silver Labs" are another scheme just like "breeders" who breed designer breeds such as Labradoodles and Puggles, etc.

[IRescue452]

Oh I know the solid type, I thought it was the English type, Amercan is the taller more racy type I thought. I like the stocky type best but they do look like they could stand to lose a few pounds imo. I believe you are a good breeder, I was just curious about what you are into with breeding and showing. Like I said, anytime I come across a breeder I don't know I like to find out about them. Just my own curiosity and love of dogs.

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

Oh I know the solid type, I thought it was the English type, Amercan is the taller more racy type I thought. I like the stocky type best but they do look like they could stand to lose a few pounds imo. I believe you are a good breeder, I was just curious about what you are into with breeding and showing. Like I said, anytime I come across a breeder I don't know I like to find out about them. Just my own curiosity and love of dogs.

about 10 years or so ago people used to think that american dogs were taller, with a sharper muzzle and a narrower head than the europeans, which were considered to be smaller, "roundier" and with shorter muzzle and wider head.
i still don't know why people used to think so. i do know that the taller ones (considered to be the american type) have a good retrieving instinct more frequently than the others. maybe that's why american's focused their breeding on temperament and retrieving skills more than on conformation and gave life to this thought.

now a days, american dogs are much heavier and stacked than the europeans, with better tails (which is considered by lots of breeders to be the most important part of the lab's conformation), coats and retrieving skills.

here are some links to famous european kennels

http://www.saunalahti.fi/mallorns/
http://www.joebattsarm.com/mardas/
http://www.labradorsofmistydreams.com/
http://members.lycos.co.uk/sandyland/
http://winnies.puh.org/