Yay for Kansas!

[smokey the elder]

The problem with verifying macro-evolution is one of time scale. Human beings do not live long enough to directly observe it. Humanity has not existed long enough to historically observe it.

Micro-evolution clearly DOES exist. Drug resistant bacteria and viruses DO exist, and were selected for by hardy individuals surviving penicillin or AZT or what have you. A bacterium's "generation" is 20 minutes. A cat, in best case, is one year. This is a factor of 26800 difference. Humans would have to have a historically continuous record of 26800 years to observe an "evolutionary" change in a cat. and that is if it occured in ONE generation. Say it take 100 generations; 2.7 MILLION years.

I rest my case.

[Randi]

Just an interesting link:

Evolution is a Fact and a Theory

[momoffuzzyfaces]

I still do not agree and never will. Just because something changes form does not mean evolution is a fact. Heck! I've gained and lost weight but that still doesn't mean evolution is a fact. I'm not becoming another species.

As for man evolving from an apelike creature: heck, take a caveman, give him a bath and shave and hair cut and dress him in modern clothes and he'll look just like a lot of men I've dated!

And I'm still glad that Kansas is going to make them teach both or neither!!!

Maybe the best thing is to teach neither. When kids want to know where earth came from the teachers can just tell them to go ask their parents! Then teachers can get back to teaching important things like sex ed.

[moosmom]

As for man evolving from an apelike creature: heck, take a caveman, give him a bath and shave and hair cut and dress him in modern clothes and he'll look just like a lot of men I've dated!

MOFF,

Now THAT'S some I can relate to!!!

[tatsxxx11]

Thank you for posting that information, Randi! Very timely as I was just about to post regarding what is included in your link, the common misconception that the term "theory," a scientific term, implies UNPROVEN fact and that is not the case. "Facts" are the data, theories are the "structures of ideas" that EXPLAIN and INTERPRET facts. A theory does not make a proven or believed fact any less valid! It's just a means of explaining the "fact." I just bring this up to clarify...just because evolution is discussed within the parameters of "theory," one should not infer that the validity of the concept itself is in question.

The "fact" being debated here, evolution, does not "go away" or lose validity, merely because different theories (explainations) of that fact are discussed or debated. Indeed Darwin's theory of evoluation was not the first to be put out there...it was his explaination, his theory to explain the "fact."

To quote Dr. Stephen J. Gould...

"Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome."

Ok, point being, apples don't float in air, we ALL believe that; they fall, every time But how to explain why they fall, that is the "theory." One's theory as to why they fall may be debated, the fact that they do and always will fall, FACT.

And facts are not absolute certainties either. That concept does not exist in science.

Another misconception of the current theory of evolution is that homonids, the human species to which we belong, in all it's forms, (evolutions) from austraelophythesis to homo erectus to homo sapiens, evolved from apes. That is not the case. Humans did not directly evolve from apes according to current theory. Nor did apples evolve from tomatoes The ape species and homonid species, cohabitated simultaneously and evolved separately, along the evolutionary time continuum. How does/can one dispute the fossil record? Cro Magnom, Neanderthal, Homo erectus...all similar but descernably distinct species of the homonid genus and clearly differentiated from the ape species in that all were bipedal, with large skulls, brains, the most distintive characteristics that separate man from apes.

And one point I'd like to bring up that has not as yet been discussed, the fact that one's belief in God/higher being and evolution are mutually exclusive. I am a Chrisitian of the Protestant faith and believe as many others whose lives are deeply rooted in their belief in God, from religious scholars to rabbis, to ministers to priests, that one can believe in both a divine creator and evolution.

I hope all opinions are welcomed here

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Yep, Sandra, all opinions are welcome here as far as I'm concerned. I think my biggest problem though with evolution is the "big Bang" theroy. I just can't buy that out of nothing, something just blew up and created the earth and universe. And that little cells just one day, started to multiply for no reason, and created every living thing with such perfection!
If one species doesn't change into another (and I don't believe for a second they do), how could that even happen?

If people want to believe they have monkey family members, who am I to argue? That's their choice.

I just think it's only fair that teachers not state as fact that evolution is what everything is about as a fact. They should at least mention that some believe everything was created by some form of intelligence. And while some argue that it can't be proven, they can't prove it wasn't either, I don't care how many fossils they wave at me.

I personally can't see why that upsets people.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Because any way you look at it...intelligent design is religion. Religion and science have been at odds throughout history.

This country was founded on...among other principles....separation of church and state.

Teach what you want at home and church...but not on the public nickel!

I find the idea of teaching intelligent design in public schools just political correction run amok! ANd once you begin down the slippery slope....

[Lady's Human]

ES, the slippery slope of politic al correctness took over the political institutions of this country long ago, unfortunately. Sex ed in schools without parental consent (at younger and younger ages), bans on prayer even if student driven and not lead by teachers, military speech codes (I can't curse at the lower enlisted, it might offend them), I could go on and on with the PC BS in society, but I don't believe this is PC. I think it is just backlash against it.

Again, both evolution and intelligent design belong in western philosophy class, not the science lab.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

[QUOTE=Edwina's Secretary]
This country was founded on...among other principles....separation of church and state.[QUOTE]
Actually, this country was founded on freedom of religon. When the Pilgrams were booted out of England because of their faith, they came here. The big debate over separation of church and state didn't happen until the Democrats and Republicans landed.

Belief in an intelligent design is not a religon unless you worship it.
I believe in air but that doesn't make it a religon.
It's a person's choice whether they worship anything or not. And no one will be telling anyone else to worship what or who ever the intelligent designer is.