"My whole point in this thread is that while prong collars do work, there are much better methods to use. "

I think we would all agree with that - and I also think that everyone here who said they'd used one - has also said that they tried almost everything else first.

I also would agree that the 'be a tree' method, or 'turn and go the other way' idea works as well - I used it to very good results with my first two goldens - who I raised from puppies. But with some dogs, they just really don't care if something is pulling on their neck, and in my case, my bursitis in my shoulder and my back was so bad that I could not stand the strain of constant jerks on my shoulder and back to correct a puller who had '4 on the floor' to my two! the 'tree' or 'turn' still jerked my back more than it affected Tristan, who was totaly concentrated on some scent or some thing.

when my shoulder and back were bad - Tristan got NO walking - and my son was too lightweight to handle him either.

(not that Tristan would ever hurt anyone, he just had no idea what he was doing, and could have dragged himself and Jon into traffic or trouble)

I also think that anyone who posted here, only uses the prong collar AS NEEDED - not all the time, and they took the time to learn how to use it properly - meaning that it does not actually hurt or injure the dog. Certainly there isn't aperson on this board ( that I have seen so far) who would actually INTEND to hurt their precious pet! Every person who HAS used it, went to that solution only after trying multiple alternatives.

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Experience can be a great teacher....

I had to smile when someone above mentioned that they USED to think crates were cruel. I was one of those people who thought crates were cruel, back in the 80's when my first goldens, Toby and Tara, were puppies, and our trainer encouraged her classes to crate train. I thought, 'how horrible to put your furchild in a CAGE all day!"

I came home everyday at lunch to let my dogs out - at the time, we had a fairly good-sized eat-in kitchen, but no kitchen table and chairs - so it was an ideal place to baby-gate two puppies safely - or so i thought....

Until one day, I came home at lunchtime from work - to let them out - and found that my two golden pups (probably about 4 or 5 months old at the time) had
1 peed on their papers properly
2 chased and played in the kitchen, flipping the soiled papers all over the floor
3 bounced open the kitchen cabinets while playing
4 pulled every box of cereal, kleenex, papertowels and dry food out of the opened cabinets
and
5 - shredded and strewn it ALL over the entire kitchen - it was about knee deep in shredded paper, dry food and poopy paper!
(runny, after eating all that sweet cereal)

YUCH!

I let them out in the fenced yard to go while I tried to clean up the mess (dressed in heels and my bank uniform), when I glanced out the window in time to see Toby get stuck under the fence, trying to escape the yard! ( Toby's little butterball tummy was too fat, but his slimmer sister, Tara had squeeked through, first!)

I had to race out into the mucky, spring muddy backyard to catch my runaway pup - my heels kept sticking in the mud so I couldn't run and catch her - and I was terrified she'd get out in the busy road and hit by a car!

Eventually she came back to me, and I got both muddy, wet and tired puppies back in the house. My uniform was wrecked, my shoes were wrecked, and I was a wreck!

I promptly, and tearfully, called my husband, insisting -

"you'd BETTER stop by the pet shop on the way home and bring us two crates! NOW! before something serious happens to Toby and Tara - i just can't handle this!"

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Because i didn't use their crates for punishment - only for protection, they learned to LOVE being in their crates. Now, I would never have a dog who wasn't 'crate-trained' - even though all of my dogs generally have free run of the house all the time. it's so much better that they alredy are used toa crate in the security of home, so that it doesn't add to their discomfort when at the vets or groomers.

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Crates can be misused - I've known people who want to keep a dog in a crate all day while they are at work, have the dog out for a few hours at in the evening, and put the dog back into the crate whenever the dog gets in their way - such as at dinner time - and then they put the dog back in the crate all night - just because they don't want to train the dog how to behave within the family. What a miserable life for a dog! - but in that case, it isn't the CRATE that is cruel - it's the people using it incorrectly!

ANY training tool can be misused. the key is to make sure you are using the training tools correctly and in the best interests of the DOG.

Laura