Gays and Gay Marriages

[Karen]

What I have found fascinating in our culture as long as this debate has been going on is this:

People who are against "gay marriage" or sometimes even "civil unions" say that they are "defending marriage."

I think that is completely untrue.

If they are "defending marriage" then what are they doing to effect the astronomically high divorce rate in this country?

If they are "defending marriage" then what are they doing to educate children and young adults, male and female, about the responsibilities marriage entails?

If they are "defending marriage" then what are they doing to help single parents raise children and provide positive role models of two-parent homes?

If they are "defending marriage" then what are they doing to counsel childen of "serial-divorcers" or the adults in question?

If they are "defending marriage" what are they doing to effect the teen pregnancy rate?

Or the rate at which young urban men are drawn into lifestyles that land them in jail?

If they are "defending marriage" what are they doing to effect the number of young people engaged in casual, pre-marital, or even not-even-close-to-dating-never-mind-married sexual activity?

What are they doing to PROMOTE marriage itself, never mind protect it, which is an even more difficult and serious job.

To all of those in the world who say they are "defending marriage", do not lie to me and say you are defending marriage when you are simply attacking people you don't want to have the "right" or the "privilege."

[K9soul]

Originally posted by WolfChan
My brother just turned 14, and he has NEVER been hateful towards any person or group of people. Age has nothing to do with hate, unfortunately.

Age alone doesn't of course but how someone is raised and taught does. Someone who is 12 and has been taught to think and believe one way by parents hasn't always been out in the world enough to realize those opinions might be wrong. At 12 I held a lot of the same beliefs and views of my Mom, thankfully most of them were tolerant views, but some of the things I think and believe changed after I got older and I came to form my own opinions on them. Yet at 12 I would have vehemently stated that my views were my own and not just that of my Mom's if someone had told me that. I'm not about to claim that if by the time I was 12 I had been taught and told over and over to believe that say, Mexicans are lazy, that I wouldn't have believed it. (That was just an example pulled out of the air).

[K9soul]

Thoughts after Karen's post:

I think the people really against it are just against homosexuality completely, and they feel by keeping the marriages illegal they are at least putting a curb on something they feel is wrong. Some probably tell themselves they are defending the institution of marriage and believe that but in the end I think it just comes down to a lifestyle they don't agree with and they think legal marriage will make it more accepted.

I think the "it wrecks the institution of marriage" argument is easier for them to say than "I don't like homosexuality and don't approve of anything that supports it and makes it acceptable in society."

[heinz57_79]

You made some great points, Karen. And I can tell you what they're doing about teen pregnancy........ teaching abstinence and taking away contraception as a form of sex ed. While abstinence is all well and good, it's really not that practical today.

I have 2 female friends that have been together for 38 years! How many 'straight' couples make it that long? With a divroce rate of over 50%, not many. It has been my observation that when a same sex couple get into a relationship they plan to be long term, they do what they can to make it work. I know more same sex couples in loving, committed relationships than I do straights. Mind you, I mean no disrespect to those that don't "choose" (haha!) my lifestyle. I think it's just that we have to work so hard at other things, that we almost want to set an example, to prove that not all gays jump from one person to another, that we are capable of raising wonderful, well-adjusted kids, and that we are no different than anyone else.

What almost makes me laugh are the people who act like we're a cult... out to convert children and teens. LoL (Meetings are held at my place every monday, @9pm... new victims, i mean MEMBERS, always welcome! muahahahahaha!)

[Cincy'sMom]

Originally posted by mugsy

4. I was appalled that OH voted in the Constitutional amendment banning gay marriages and civil unions...it goes right back to my point 3.

Not just Ohio...it was on the ballot in 11 states, and passed in
ALL 11! I was very surprised the votes went that way.

[buckner]

Originally posted by DJFyrewolf36
We can argue the whole civil union/marage thing until we are all blue in the face. I don't think the terminology matters much, so long as same sex couples are granted the legal rights (and drawbacks) as heterosexual couples. Legally, a marrage/civil union is a pretty powerful thing. All couples should have the right to it if they choose.

If marriage is just a sign of love, as Tonya put it, then why can't gay couples just go on without that certificate? Obviously, the certificate doesn't mean anything if it's just about love. If it's just about love, then why do gay couples needs the drawbacks that hetero couple have?

I agree with Samantha Puppy. I don't have a problem with homosexual people, but I do have a problem with them wanting to get married. Issues like health insurance and hospital visits should not be up to the state. The insurance companies and hospitals should decide whether or not YOUR situation is okay in their facilities/company.

People are given their individual rights and the state is just about them. No, a gay person doesn't have the right to get married to someone other gay person, but I don't the right to get married right now, either. Should I get peeved and growl about the fact that I'm underage and can't get married without my parents' signatures? I think not. It's illegal for just anyone to carry a concealed weapon. You have to get it approved, and registered/licensed, among other things. Does that mean I should growl about me wanting to have a gun, but I'm only 16 so I can't?? No.

If we can redefine the definition of marriage, I propose we redefine 3/4 of the English language just because we have the right to growl about it! Not. There's a reason homosexual couples can't get married - it's ILLEGAL! Judges were trying to amend the laws, and that's not their job. I propose we change the marriage laws and say I can marry my dog because I just love her SO much! Woot. Not. Why? Because it's illegal. I think it's PATHETIC that states even had to put an admentment change question on the ballots this election. I think it's pathetic that judges took matters into their own hands just because they thought it was wrong. I find it even more pathetic that people in this country are proposing we allow homosexual couples get married.

Originally posted by lizzielou742
If the federal government was out of the marriage business, then moderates/Democrats would be happy (separation of Church and State!)

I'd also like to point out if the government was out of a lot of "social" but legal acts, this country would be in one hell of a hole. Correct, I don't feel the government should be taking MY money because they don't realize how much they already have, but there are reasons we have LAWS.. for people to obide by them.

And another thing, it says no where in the constitution about Separation of Church and State. Find it, and show me.. but I can guarantee that won't happen because it's not there. I've looked, many times. It does say that we can't shove one religion down someone's throat and enforce it, but no where does it say we can't have Church and State coincide.

And heck, why can't issues that MATTER to people be based on religion? This country was founded upon religion! First a person says they want religion to be taken out of the matter, and then for the government and laws to be taken out of it to. What's going to be left?

[Kfamr]

If marriage is just a sign of love, as Tonya put it, then why can't gay couples just go on without that certificate? Obviously, the certificate doesn't mean anything if it's just about love. If it's just about love, then why do gay couples needs the drawbacks that hetero couple have?

Why shouldn't they? Why should they be denied the same rights hetero couples have? Why do hetero couples need that certificate?

It's illegal for just anyone to carry a concealed weapon. You have to get it approved, and registered/licensed, among other things. Does that mean I should growl about me wanting to have a gun, but I'm only 16 so I can't?? No.

I think it's very bizzare that you use such a comparison.
A gun is capable of harming someone, killing somone.

Two people of the same sex getting married, gettings rights that every other married couple has, and getting a piece of paper saying that they're in love and are together -- will not hurt someone or kill someone.

There's a reason homosexual couples can't get married - it's ILLEGAL! Judges were trying to amend the laws, and that's not their job. I propose we change the marriage laws and say I can marry my dog because I just love her SO much! Woot. Not. Why? Because it's illegal. I think it's PATHETIC that states even had to put an admentment change question on the ballots this election. I think it's pathetic that judges took matters into their own hands just because they thought it was wrong. I find it even more pathetic that people in this country are proposing we allow homosexual couples get married.

I think it's pretty damn pathetic the way some people think about Homosexuals.
The reason you cannot marry your dog is because your dog cannot say "I do". Again, your comparisons are pretty bizzare.

why can't issues that MATTER to people be based on religion?

Not everyone believes in the same religion, nor does everyone believe in "God", thus laws should not be made on the beliefs of a religion.

Also, I forget what exactly my teacher said, but he said something along the lines that the country wasn't founded on religion, but something else. I'm not saying that it's factual, but that's what he said.

[buckner]

This country was founded on Freedom For Religion. If you'd like to just say Freedom, then go for it. But it was founded on freedom for religion - understand what you wish.

[buckner]

Originally posted by Kfamr
Why shouldn't they? Why should they be denied the same rights hetero couples have? Why do hetero couples need that certificate?

I don't think Hetero couples "need" that certificate. I know people who are perfectly happy with just being "together" and never getting married because they're scared of the idea of marriage. I think if a couple is to just get married because they want that legal status of being married and for that certificate, then they're being blinded by the real reason of marriage.

And they're being denied of the right to get married because it's illegal. Plain and simple. Again, health concerns and liabilities should be brought up and decided by the company itself. Not by the state or laws. That's all they want, right? Health insurance, life insurance, hospital visits, etc., correct? They don't have to be "married" to love eachother... right? Then why not fight for the companies and insurance policies to change, as opposed to letting homosexual couples get married? I guarantee, that if homosexual couples ever are allowed to get married, the same insurance companies and hospitals will DENY the same things they are denying now. Think about it.

[Kfamr]

But WHY should it be illegal??
It's not plain and simple.

It's plain ole stupid. There's no reason for them not to be able to get married, there's no reason for it to be illegal.
They're human beings, just like a Hetero couple.

I think people just need to learn how to open their minds and accept the fact that Homosexual people are no different than Heterosexual, nor should they be treated differently.

The whole subject just makes me sad because today's society is just so screwy.


Oh, and I wanted to add... BRAVO KAREN.. that was an excellent post.

[guineapiglover4ever]

Originally posted by guineapiglover4ever
ohh i am srry i didnt mean for my point of veiw to be mean.
sometimes i write entensivly when i am expressing my opinion
well my mom also said that it wasnt god's will so i also added that into it

again i am soo srry

[lbaker]

I have not participated in so many of these threads - the election, gay rights, abortion etc. etc. because it's hard to stop with just one statement. But now I just have to wonder about the term I'm reading/hearing all over the place about how "family values" are first and foremost in everyones mind right now. "Family Values"?? I don't know about some of you (some I do) but in my family (weird as it is/was) we believe in tolerance, acceptance, forgiveness, love and kindness to the less fortunate, individual rights. Well, I could go on but don't speak of "family values" as if yours is the only one that matters if for whatever reason your FAMILY does not have the same values as mine. Good for you, but that doesn't make mine wrong. Heavy sigh:

[Karen]

Originally posted by buckner
I'd also like to point out if the government was out of a lot of "social" but legal acts, this country would be in one hell of a hole. Correct, I don't feel the government should be taking MY money because they don't realize how much they already have, but there are reasons we have LAWS.. for people to obide by them.

And another thing, it says no where in the constitution about Separation of Church and State. Find it, and show me.. but I can guarantee that won't happen because it's not there. I've looked, many times. It does say that we can't shove one religion down someone's throat and enforce it, but no where does it say we can't have Church and State coincide.

The First Amendment to The Constitution:

Article [I.] (See Note 13)
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

[micki76]

Originally posted by buckner
There's a reason homosexual couples can't get married - it's ILLEGAL! I think it's PATHETIC that states even had to put an admentment change question on the ballots this election.

You do realize that times and laws change, right?

It used to be LEGAL to own people. The 13th Amendment freed all slaves in the United States. The 14th Amendment made all freed slaves US citizens. The 15th Amendment was made to let all freed slaves vote in the US. Would you prefer that these amendments were not ratified?

Women were granted the right to vote via the 19th amendment. Would you prefer that hadn't passed? Of course not. Was that pathetic?

Many people were opposed to these amendments in their times. Many thought they were pathetic, but after years of fighting a war and fighting for the right to vote, we became a little more enlightened here in the USA.

Hopefully, one day soon, everyone can have the right to marry.

I wish the world could be tolerant, less frightened of people who are “different� from what they may be used to, and less frightened of progress and change. If a law is unjust why shouldn't it be changed? Is it unjust to forbid people to marry and create families, if they want to? If not, why? Because those families would be "different"? There are already many different types of families.

I just simply don't understand intolerance. It baffles me.

[Uabassoon]

Bucker, I don't think that wanting rights blinds the idea of marriage. Yes, many hetro couples choose not to get married, but that is their choice they have that option. For me, if I decide I want to spend my life with them I want to have the rights that everyone else is allowed. If my partner is dying, I want to be allowed to be there by her. Not forced to sit in a waiting room because I'm not "family". If gay marriages were legal I doubt that hospitals would deny them their rights. Why? Because hospitals already get a large amount of lawsuits a year, why add to that?

If I wanted to my parter and I could walk into any of Tucson's gay friendly curches and ask for a wedding, and they would actually give us a ceremony. Yes, there actually are pastors out there that will perform a marriage ceremony for gay and lesbian couples! However, if I ever decided I wanted to get married I would still like to have the rights that every other american citizen is allowed.

Personally I think baning gay marriages promotes hate and intolerance. It teaches people that if you are gay you are less of a citizen and don't deserve the same rights as everyone else. People are allowed their religious freedom, you are free to hate me for being gay or free to love me but disagree with me. But that doesn't mean I'm not an american citizen who wants to be treated with the same rights and respects as everyone else.