Should Teachers Pay Be Linked To Student Grades

[Pembroke_Corgi]

As an attorney, I can say the same thing. I can easily think of $30,000 in uncollected attorney fees- I did the work, and I did not get paid. I have a blackberry, internet access at home to stay in touch with people on Friday- the day I don't work, and don't get paid (LOL), I have certain clothes I buy for work, I call people and re-remind them of court dates, I meet clients at their homes or some other place to make it easier on them. I could go on and on. MOST professionals work more than the 'face time' reflected in the office. I had a client call me at 10 pm one night! And, no, it was not an ER. I didn't sign up for a 9-5 job, and I knew that going in. Saturday appointments cause the client says, "I work during the week, so I need to see you after work or on the weekend". Uh, hello? Guess what? I work, too! During the day, and not on the weekends (as a rule).

I don't think teachers hold the market on how hard they work.

Well, it is true that there are other jobs who work beyond the standard 9-5, but the average salary is much higher for an attorney than for a teacher. And, you still get paid even if you lose a court case don't you? (After all, you cannot control a person's guilt or innocence, etc.) I'm not sure why teachers should be penalized for something that is in many ways out of their control.

[Lady's Human]

Let's see.....things outside of my control:

equipment operators

machine programming/design

quality of the parts

the mail being run through the machines.

Extra time spent outside of work: about 2 years training (so far) in Oklahoma away from home, in addition to the training and experience that got me the job in the first place, and occasionally fielding calls to help other techs when things really get screwed up.

I still get paid if I can't fix a machine or a network system, but if it happens too many times I'll have issues.

We all deal with issues in our jobs which are outside of our direct control. No one profession has a corner on the work done behind the scenes.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Let's see.....things outside of my control:

equipment operators

machine programming/design

quality of the parts

the mail being run through the machines.

Extra time spent outside of work: about 2 years training (so far) in Oklahoma away from home, in addition to the training and experience that got me the job in the first place, and occasionally fielding calls to help other techs when things really get screwed up.

I still get paid if I can't fix a machine or a network system, but if it happens too many times I'll have issues.

We all deal with issues in our jobs which are outside of our direct control. No one profession has a corner on the work done behind the scenes.

LH, I see where you are coming from but I don’t agree. Whenever you work with people, things are not as cut and dried as fixing a broken machine. Think about this scenario (I’m not entirely clear how things run at the postal service, so forgive me if this is a clumsy analogy).

Let’s pretend each employee at the PO is expected to process 500 pieces of mail per week. No exceptions. If you fail to meet your goal, you will have your pay docked. At your PO, 75% of your mail takes more time to process than standard mail. You do not have the option to work later/longer in order to get your work done. Your average is typically 400 pieces of mail/week, because it would not do to have different standards for different post offices. Assuming you want don’t want your pay docked, what are your options? Cut corners (so you get it done faster, but maybe not as well), quit, or find an easier post office to work at.

[Lady's Human]

No, I'm not missing the human in the equations, they are part of the machine.

To take a different tack.....

For 2 years I was the ops NCO for a training team, and also an instructor.

I was a teacher. The military in wartime has a fairly harsh grading curve. If you teach your students well, they stand a far better chance of living than if they have a lousy instructor. Same varied inputs, (everyone from gung ho soldiers to people pissed because they just joined for the college money), but only one standard. At the end of the day, the soldiers leaving the training team's care HAD to know their job.

Incompetence on the podium was not put up with, and instructors were removed for...................their students (soldiers) not learning the required tasks. No questions asked. When 1A decided that soldiers weren't learning, the instructors were removed. In a few cases I know of the removal from the podium ended their careers.

Were otherwise competent soldiers careers ended because their students didn't learn?

Yup.

Did they have control over the soldiers they received to train? Nope.

There HAVE to be performance standards for teachers. What they should be is open for debate, but without standards, the education system is done.

[Lady's Human]

As an addition, there are jobs where that is the standard. It's called flat rate work in the automotive industry, and in general industry it's called piecework, which used to be a fairly standard pay scale (In some industries it still is)

[Pembroke_Corgi]

I agree that teachers should have some performance standards. However, getting paid based on student test scores is unfair to teachers, because it doesn't necessarily measure how hard or effectively teachers are working.

A student who comes into the 6th grade at a kindergarten reading level is still expected to meet grade level. A teacher could work very hard with the student (with or without parental involvement, though it is MUCH more difficult to accomplish anything without the parents' help) and the student could make great progress (for example read at a 3rd grade level) but still not meet their grade level. Imagine a school where this is the norm, and not the exception (as it is in many, many urban schools). A teacher at another school could have a classroom full of kids who already meet or exceed their grade level. This teacher could hypothetically kick back and relax (not saying they would) and make more than the teacher who worked their tail off. The result is that teachers will only want to work at the schools where parents are more involved and students are prepared for school.

Of course I think teachers need to do a good job, and performance standards is a good way to check on this. However, basing it on student grades is absolutely the wrong way to do it. Student progress may be a bit more fair, but I still think teachers who work at disadvantaged schools will still have a more difficult time meeting those kinds of goals.

[Lady's Human]

A student who comes into the 6th grade at a kindergarten reading level is still expected to meet grade level.

And short of an ESL or child with a learning disability, why is a child with that reading level entering 6th grade?

Screw social promotion, embarrass the hell out of them and they might have a newfound impetus to learn. It'd look damned silly for an 11 y/o to still be in kindergarten.

[wombat2u2004]

If teachers are expected to perform more.....then why not pay them more ???

[Cataholic]

Well, it is true that there are other jobs who work beyond the standard 9-5, but the average salary is much higher for an attorney than for a teacher. And, you still get paid even if you lose a court case don't you? (After all, you cannot control a person's guilt or innocence, etc.) I'm not sure why teachers should be penalized for something that is in many ways out of their control.

Right now, I have chosen to work a 4 day work week. I will go back to work 'full time' once J goes to school full time. So, these comments are based on a presumption that I am working a 5 day work week. I work anywhere between 50 and 60 hours a week. Of that time, I would bet about 80% is 'billable' time. For billable time, I 'should' get paid- whether I win or lose a court case (and, the majority of what I do is court room work, so, nice guess there! (or I told you that already, LOL)). I have no magical way of getting people to pay, unless I get my fee up front. Asking someone - and often they are just like you and I, regular working people, to fund a minimum of $5000- $7500 today for the work I will do over the next 6 months to a year is really difficult. They won't pay. I can usually get $1500 or so upfront, and I blow through that pretty quickly. So, I don't get 100% of my time- ever. Of the 80% that is billable, I bet I have a collection issue on 30%?? When you put that final figure into a 50-60 hour work week, I really don't make that much, LOL. I don't know many attorneys that really make that much. Sure, some are out there, and the big firms in the big cities really DO make money. They also bill between 1800-2000 hours a year. Bill, not work hours. Big difference.

I guess my 'thing' is- most of us work and get paid on a performance basis. Salespeople....they don't control the merchandise they sell, the general public to whom they are to sell, the market, the store location, etc. Doctors....they do a crappy job and they lose patients. Like lawyers. Like restaurants, like sales people, like everyone- seemingly, but, teachers.

[katladyd]

i am a teacher, and performance pay makes sense, until you are the teacher with all the students with special needs in her classroom. You are not going to look as good on paper as the teacher with more seniority who may not be as good a teacher as you are, but has many gifted students in her class. I am a special ed teacher who puts in many more hours than my fellow teachers in mainstream classes, but according to merit pay, I would get paid less. Now, I used to work in the legal profession, my boyfriend is an attorney of 30+ years experience, and the two are so unrelated to each other it is silly! I am thinking of going back into the legal field. It pays more and the hours are fewer...they really are.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Well, it's actually untrue that there are no repercussions or standards for teachers. For one thing, teachers must always continue to take classes in order to renew their license. Also, most teachers are contracted a certain amount of time at a school, for example 1-3 years, and at the end of their contract they can be let go or rehired. In addition, most schools have standards for their teachers, but since most education laws are state mandated and not federally mandated, this can vary from state to state and district to district.

The one really big exception to the fact that most laws are not federally mandated is IDEA. This is a federal law which requires students with disabilities to be educated in the "least restrictive environment." In many cases, this means in the general classroom some of the time while being pulled out (thereby reducing valuable instruction time) for special services (such as speech therapy, meeting with a special education teacher, etc.). So, it is not uncommon in some schools to have a classroom which is comprised of mostly students who are ESL and have a learning disability (BTW, ESL is not considered a learning disability, though it is very possible to have a student who is ESL and has an LD).

I personally feel that one really big problem with our education system is the fact that much of the prime formative years are ignored by the education system. A lot of research indicates that the preschool years are very important for creating good academic habits later in life. I feel every child should be required to attend a free, high quality preschool for at least 1-2 years before entering kindergarten. It's something I hope to study while I'm working on my PhD so I will get back to you with my results.

[Lady's Human]

Well, it's actually untrue that there are no repercussions or standards for teachers. For one thing, teachers must always continue to take classes in order to renew their license.

And this is different from most other profession show? Standards in many, many fields change constantly and skilled workers have to constantly update their training. This is not unique to the teaching profession. The main difference between a teacher and an electronic technician in that regard is that your professional updates count for a higher degree, while ours means we simply get to keep our jobs.

I personally feel that one really big problem with our education system is the fact that much of the prime formative years are ignored by the education system. A lot of research indicates that the preschool years are very important for creating good academic habits later in life. I feel every child should be required to attend a free, high quality preschool for at least 1-2 years before entering kindergarten. It's something I hope to study while I'm working on my PhD so I will get back to you with my results.

2 years of preschool prior to Kindergarten? Not only no, but hell no. Leave the creche to diploma "education" to the countries which already practice it, thank you. China has a wonderful system, kids learn to sing the praises of Chairman Mao before they can read.

I spend enough time as it is removing and challenging politically biased teaching in the classroom as it is, and my children are 5 and 8. The sole advantage to starting them in classrooms earlier is to get the programming started earlier. Ain't happening. Prior to the election I was listening to how great it was going to be to have a black man as President. Why in hell is that crap in elementary school? Then I heard how wonderful President Obama was.....before he had done anything. Then they learned about his Nobel gift..........and add to that to all the junk science being foisted on children in school. Speaking with other parents in other districts in NY state, it's not district wide, it's state wide.

Nope, 5 is early enough.

[lizbud]

And this is different from most other profession show? Standards in many, many fields change constantly and skilled workers have to constantly update their training. This is not unique to the teaching profession. The main difference between a teacher and an electronic technician in that regard is that your professional updates count for a higher degree, while ours means we simply get to keep our jobs.


2 years of preschool prior to Kindergarten? Not only no, but hell no. Leave the creche to diploma "education" to the countries which already practice it, thank you. China has a wonderful system, kids learn to sing the praises of Chairman Mao before they can read.

I spend enough time as it is removing and challenging politically biased teaching in the classroom as it is, and my children are 5 and 8. The sole advantage to starting them in classrooms earlier is to get the programming started earlier. Ain't happening. Prior to the election I was listening to how great it was going to be to have a black man as President. Why in hell is that crap in elementary school? Then I heard how wonderful President Obama was.....before he had done anything. Then they learned about his Nobel gift..........and add to that to all the junk science being foisted on children in school. Speaking with other parents in other districts in NY state, it's not district wide, it's state wide.

Nope, 5 is early enough.

What the heck are you so angry about??? Don't have to take this
subject personally.

[Lady's Human]

I realize the current mass media trend is to label any disagreement as anger, but guess what? It's disagreement.

You wouldn't like me when I'm angry..............

[lizbud]

I realize the current mass media trend is to label any disagreement as anger, but guess what? It's disagreement.

You wouldn't like me when I'm angry..............

I struggle to like any disagreeable person mad or otherwise.