Muddy is still coughing

[Cinder & Smoke]

I also told her that Muddy sometimes drags his back right leg sometimes.

But he does drag that foot every now and then, just for a second,
kind of like a lazy step.
She thinks he has Degenerative Myelopathy
(a degeneration of his spinal area) which is not uncommon for his breed
and causes things like foot dragging and incontinence ...

Is anyone here on PT familiar with this disease?

Familiar with "Degenerative Myelopathy" ?
Sadly, I'm all too familiar.

My 'adopted FurKid', Bowser (now at the Rainbow Bridge ) must have
had enough German Shepherd mixed in with his Corgi/Husky mix that he
developed the condition of Degenerative Myelopathy about a year before
he passed away from what we believe were 'natural causes', aka Old Age.

Lazy Foot is more often described as "Toe Dragging" --- as the dog steps
forward, he's unable to 'pull up the toes' before swinging his leg forward;
the top or front of the toes actually drag on the ground.
As the disease advances, the dog compensates by "throwing" the foot
forward on each step; although the toes may still drag.

The 'quick test' most Vets do is to stand the dog on all fours and then
gently fold the suspected lazy paw back and under, so the dog is now
standing on the "knuckles" of that paw.
A DM dog won't notice or feel the paw is out of position and will calmly
stand on the folded back paw.
A dog NOT suffering from DM will either resist the turning under of the
paw or IMMEDIATELY pick it up an 'flip' the paw into it's proper position
as soon as the paw is released.

It's a very cruel and ugly disease ... Bowser compensated very well when
it only effected one rear leg & paw; on days when his "good side" was
starting to be effected, it would break my heart to see him try to struggle
up the front steps or hop up into the car. I'd just give him a little *boost*
to get him going and try not to make a fuss over it.

Thankfully he never had bowel control problems; but he did start to "leak"
overnight. We fixed that with a doggy diaper ... he acted embarrassed
at first; till I started telling him we were just puttin on his "Jammies" for
bedtime!

Our next step was going to be to order his Doggy Wheels ...
but he decided it might be easier to just "retire" up at The Bridge.


*WAVE* that Fluffie Tail, Bowz ...
We sure do *MISS* Ya, Bub!

/s/ Dad

[lizbud]

My Buddy had this condition near the end days before he went down
with all four legs. I didn't really notice his walk that much, but the Vet
spotted the "toe drag" and pointed it out on a visit.

I hope Muddy has more good days than bad and is happy & comfortable.

[Emeraldgreen]

The use of gabapentin in dogs is fairly new. My vet clinic doesn't even carry it. I have to fill the prescription at my pharmarcy, much to the fascination of the pharmacist! Pirate's vet says that when it works for a dog, it works quickly. Pirate responded within a week and seemed to reach maximum improvement in about a month. Pirate doesn't show any negative side effects, but it can apparently have a strong sedating effect on some dogs.

It sure sounds like Pirate is going through alot! I'm glad she has found you and will have you until the end.
I spoke with my vet on the phone today and I mentioned to her that I knew of someone who had been giving their dog with DM a human medication for seizures but I couldn't remember the name. She was really interested and gave me her email address so I could email the name of the drug to her. She seems open to all kinds of ideas so I'm grateful for that. And she called me today to check up on Muddy instead of the usual call back by a receptionist so I really appreciated that too. Now that I have the name written down, I will email it to her along with the dosage that you included in your previous post. Thank you again for this information!

Ginger's Mom wrote:

I am glad you changed the title, somehow I have missed some updates. I did listen to the video and it didn't sound like my dog's coughing, but I didn't want to say anything until you went to the vet. I hope you and your vet can come up with some plan or medication that helps Muddy.

Yes, I changed the title because I was thinking that it might catch some PT eyes that would recognize the disease. I'm so glad that people are sharing their stories with me. I want to try and do whatever I can for Mud.

katslady wrote:

I am sorry to hear about the DM diagnosis.I had a friend that had a German Sheppard with DM.She tried treatment with acupuncture and Chinese herbs.I don't know if it slowed the degeneration down, but it made her feel better to try something.He had the disease for 4+ years. After 2 years he was completely down in the rearend,but they did not give up. She bought him a wheel chair. He did great in it, he could run and play with the other dogs again.It never seemed to bother him that he could not use his rear legs.He did though have bowel control issues, especially while sleeping.He was very happy in his final 2 years with his wheel chair. He had to be PTS for other issues at 14 years old. My friend is still so thankful she got the wheelchair for him and they had 2 more years together.I wish you good luck for Muddy and hope you find some treatment that will make it easier on both of you.katslady

What a story! I'm hopeful about the 4+ years and I'm inspired by the dog, the owner and the wheelchair. I'm thinking about acupuncture too but have to look into it a bit more. My husband is going in for a treatment soon (his first) and this woman also does it on animals. Thanks for sharing this.

catlady777 wrote:

I did google it and some findings suggest that regular disk problems may be misdiagnosed as DM by xray alone, and suggest an MRI, although I'm not sure how much different the treatment would be.

This is interesting. I don't know what the treatments for disk problems would be but I'm going to look into it as well. I don't think we can afford an MRI at this point but the possibility that he 'may not' have DM is worth investigating for sure.

I hope Muddy's coughing stops soon and at least has one less thing to bother him. Hopefully Muddy's vet will find a treatment that works for him. Thank you for posting an update.

I bought the Benylin DM cough syrup for Muddy and gave him some yesterday but it was awful. I'm supposed to give him 50-60mg every 8 hours. There is 15mg in 5 ml's of syrup. If I were to give him 60mg, I'd have to give him 20 mls every 8 hours! The bottle is only 100 mls and he hated it when I was squirting it in his mouth. We both ended up a sticky mess.
So I asked my vet today if there was a pill version I could give him. She told me the torbutrol (spelling??) was available but was so expensive for a larger dog. She suggested I call the pharmacist and see if it came in a pill. And to my great happiness, Robitussin has just come out with a brand new gel cap that has nothing in it but DM. I gave him his pills earlier and he seems alot better. The goal is to get him to stop coughing and then the cycle should stop because his coughing due to the inflammation was causing more inflammation.

Cinder and Smoke wrote:

Familiar with "Degenerative Myelopathy" ?
Sadly, I'm all too familiar.

My 'adopted FurKid', Bowser (now at the Rainbow Bridge ) must have
had enough German Shepherd mixed in with his Corgi/Husky mix that he
developed the condition of Degenerative Myelopathy about a year before
he passed away from what we believe were 'natural causes', aka Old Age.

Your furkid, Bowser sounds like he was one special guy! That is quite the mix, Corgi, Husky and German Shepherd. The Corgi must have had to use a ladder! We had a Pembroke Corgi growing up and got him from the Humane Society. Had him for 15 years, great dog.

Lazy Foot is more often described as "Toe Dragging" --- as the dog steps
forward, he's unable to 'pull up the toes' before swinging his leg forward;
the top or front of the toes actually drag on the ground.
As the disease advances, the dog compensates by "throwing" the foot
forward on each step; although the toes may still drag.

The 'quick test' most Vets do is to stand the dog on all fours and then
gently fold the suspected lazy paw back and under, so the dog is now
standing on the "knuckles" of that paw.
A DM dog won't notice or feel the paw is out of position and will calmly
stand on the folded back paw.
A dog NOT suffering from DM will either resist the turning under of the
paw or IMMEDIATELY pick it up an 'flip' the paw into it's proper position
as soon as the paw is released.

Thank you for this information. This test was not done on Muddy at the vet clinic. I tried it this evening and he 'righted' his lazy foot each time but there did seem to be a bit of a delay. But I was hopeful because he did fix it himself. I was surprised though when I turned his left front paw under and he stood there on his knuckles for a few seconds. He then fixed it.

he acted embarrassed at first; till I started telling him we were just puttin on his "Jammies" for bedtime!

This might be one of the sweetest things I've ever read! LES.

Our next step was going to be to order his Doggy Wheels ...but he decided it might be easier to just "retire" up at The Bridge.

I do hope that we will have enough time to help Muddy and if he needs wheels, we'll get 'em some. Thank you for posting in this thread.

Lizbud wrote:

My Buddy had this condition near the end days before he went down with all four legs. I didn't really notice his walk that much, but the Vet spotted the "toe drag" and pointed it out on a visit.
I hope Muddy has more good days than bad and is happy & comfortable.

I'm sorry to hear about Buddy. That was Muddy's real name with his first family for 5 years. We changed it to Muddy because we wanted to keep it similar to what he was used to and... he is a real hole digger so it suits him well. Thanks.

[critters]

I did google it and some findings suggest that regular disk problems may be misdiagnosed as DM by xray alone, and suggest an MRI, although I'm not sure how much different the treatment would be.
.

You're exactly right. and the treatment would be quite different. Disks can be treated with surgery & steroids or crate rest & steroids, and DM is a diagnosis of exclusion (if everything else is ruled out). You should post on the neuro bb at Handicapped Pets; maybe a myelogram is less expensive than an MRI. It is also an effective diagnostic for disks, unlike plain xrays.

My Buddy was probably one of the first to use gabapentin, over 2 years ago, for zaps from a spinal cord injury. WONDERFUL stuff!!!!!!

[Cinder & Smoke]

"The 'quick test' most Vets do is to stand the dog on all fours and then
gently fold the suspected lazy paw back and under, so the dog is now
standing on the "knuckles" of that paw.
A DM dog won't notice or feel the paw is out of position and will calmly
stand on the folded back paw.
A dog NOT suffering from DM will either resist the turning under of the
paw or IMMEDIATELY pick it up an 'flip' the paw into it's proper position
as soon as the paw is released."

This test was not done on Muddy at the vet clinic.
I tried it this evening and he 'righted' his lazy foot each time
but there did seem to be a bit of a delay.
But I was hopeful because he did fix it himself.
I was surprised though when I turned his left front paw under and he stood there on his knuckles for a few seconds. He then fixed it.

Bowser had just begun to 'show signs' of DM when Doc Mike gave him the
first of many 'fold-the-paw-under' tests ... at first he reacted with a
'slightly delayed' return of the paw to it's proper position. But the time
required for him to 'notice' it was turned under and act to correct it's
placement kept increasing as the weeks wore on. I'd test him at home
every few days - and noted his response time was always increasing.

Another sign I couldn't ignore was that the toenails on the Bum Paw were
being worn down to nubbins from dragging on the pavement. Dear Glacier
sent Bowz a package of Sled Dog Booties from Kan-a-Da ... Bowz only
wore ONE at a time, on the left-rear paw, during our hikes in the BigLake Parks.
The Bootie greatly reduced the wear on the top of his paw and
allowed his nails to grow back out. He was "supposed to" walk only in the
grass beside the road - but he liked to 'follow Dad' so closely he'd be
bumping into the back of my heels. I learned to listen to the rhythmic
"swish" of his bootie on the road - then reach out with the leash to steer
him back onto the grass. If I heard the "scrape" sound of his nails -
Time to backtrack and find where his boot had pulled off.

I have to give Bowz a LOT of credit - he NEVER gave up! We struggled
*together* with his DM ... we slowed down a bit, and ended a few walks
before Cinder & Smokey were ready to call it quits, but ole Bowz hung in
there with the BigKids till he 'retired' to the Bridge.
He never really let the DM get the best of him.

Here's the PT thread that started in November of 2006 >>>
Bowser needs Prayers ... Old Age is catching up ...
http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?t=116267

The Prayer Pups will keep Muddy in their prayers!

/s/ Phred (aka New Dad)

[Emeraldgreen]

You're exactly right. and the treatment would be quite different. Disks can be treated with surgery & steroids or crate rest & steroids, and DM is a diagnosis of exclusion (if everything else is ruled out). You should post on the neuro bb at Handicapped Pets; maybe a myelogram is less expensive than an MRI. It is also an effective diagnostic for disks, unlike plain xrays.

My Buddy was probably one of the first to use gabapentin, over 2 years ago, for zaps from a spinal cord injury. WONDERFUL stuff!!!!!!

I just emailed my vet with the information about Gabapentin. That is great to hear of another dog who has been on this drug with success. And very cool that he was one of the first to try it.

Do you happen to know if disk problems can be caused by an old injury? About 4 years ago my brother was visiting from Arizona for Christmas. We got a good dump of snow one day and Muddy came racing up and my brother fell over, onto Muddy. At the time my brother was close to 270 pounds and he flattened Muddy. Both of them were in alot of pain and I called my vet (it was night time) and he had me do all kinds of things like lift his limbs and check each rib and other stuff and Muddy seemed to be okay. He told me to monitor him and bring him in if he got worse. He was fairly stiff for a few days but was his old self not long after. He had an exam after the incident but we didn't have xrays done. I'm wondering now if maybe now in his old age this injury is flaring up and maybe pressing on nerves or something?!?

Cinder & Smoke wrote:

Bowser had just begun to 'show signs' of DM when Doc Mike gave him the first of many 'fold-the-paw-under' tests ... at first he reacted with a
'slightly delayed' return of the paw to it's proper position. But the time
required for him to 'notice' it was turned under and act to correct it's
placement kept increasing as the weeks wore on. I'd test him at home
every few days - and noted his response time was always increasing.

I will keep doing the test each week and see how he is doing. Thank you for telling me about this. It does sound very similar.

Another sign I couldn't ignore was that the toenails on the Bum Paw were being worn down to nubbins from dragging on the pavement. Dear Glacier sent Bowz a package of Sled Dog Booties from Kan-a-Da ... Bowz only
wore ONE at a time, on the left-rear paw, during our hikes in the BigLake Parks. The Bootie greatly reduced the wear on the top of his paw and
allowed his nails to grow back out. He was "supposed to" walk only in the
grass beside the road - but he liked to 'follow Dad' so closely he'd be
bumping into the back of my heels. I learned to listen to the rhythmic
"swish" of his bootie on the road - then reach out with the leash to steer
him back onto the grass. If I heard the "scrape" sound of his nails -
Time to backtrack and find where his boot had pulled off.

We have mostly grass but when Muddy walks on the driveway, I can hear a light scraping of that one foot. The bootie is an excellent idea and I will keep it in mind if his foot looks like it is getting worn or sore.

I have to give Bowz a LOT of credit - he NEVER gave up! We struggled *together* with his DM ... we slowed down a bit, and ended a few walks before Cinder & Smokey were ready to call it quits, but ole Bowz hung in
there with the BigKids till he 'retired' to the Bridge. He never really let the DM get the best of him. Here's the PT thread that started in November of 2006 >>>
Bowser needs Prayers ... Old Age is catching up ...
http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?t=116267

The Prayer Pups will keep Muddy in their prayers!

I hope Muddy will carry on just as Bowser was able to until the end. I will check out his thread and read his story.

[Karen]

I am so glad that Muddy is such a loved doggie, and that the community of Pet Talkers has been able to help you. Keep us updated, I am glad you are asking your vet about the gabapentin!

[critters]

Do you happen to know if disk problems can be caused by an old injury? About 4 years ago my brother was visiting from Arizona for Christmas. We got a good dump of snow one day and Muddy came racing up and my brother fell over, onto Muddy. At the time my brother was close to 270 pounds and he flattened Muddy. Both of them were in alot of pain and I called my vet (it was night time) and he had me do all kinds of things like lift his limbs and check each rib and other stuff and Muddy seemed to be okay. He told me to monitor him and bring him in if he got worse. He was fairly stiff for a few days but was his old self not long after. He had an exam after the incident but we didn't have xrays done. I'm wondering now if maybe now in his old age this injury is flaring up and maybe pressing on nerves or something?!?
.

I don't see why not. And don't forget a splint is a good option if knuckling begins to interfere with life. http://www.handicappedpets.com/splints

[Emeraldgreen]

I am so glad that Muddy is such a loved doggie, and that the community of Pet Talkers has been able to help you. Keep us updated, I am glad you are asking your vet about the gabapentin!

Oh yes, he is one loved guy! He is such a good boy and he adores his pawpie. He loves me too but he follows his pawpie's every move to see what's next, what's happening, where are we going etc.. I'm more of the snuggly friend that gives him yummy things and tucks him in at night. But that is an important role too!
I am very grateful for the information provided to me in this thread and in all threads that I've received support and information. It truly is invaluable. Where else can you go and find multiple contributions from people who have gone through the exact same situation? It is the best.


Thank you Critters for that link with regard to splints. I haven't checked it out yet but I will tonight!

Cinder & Smoke wrote:

Here's the PT thread that started in November of 2006 >>> Bowser needs Prayers ... Old Age is catching up ...
http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?t=116267

The Prayer Pups will keep Muddy in their prayers!

I just finished reading the thread on Bowser. Once I got into a rhythem with the 'Bowser Speak' it WAZ NUFFIN'!
I was really interested in each of your posts and laughed quite a bit with regard to the lights and cowbells the dogs were all wearing and the 'deer hunt' followed by 'deer pharts'!

We are having a terrible day today. Four days ago Muddy was running around fairly normal but yesterday and today he is a different dog. The vet prescribed Benylin DM for him (50-60mg every 8 hours). The cough syrup thing was a disaster so I found some Benylin DM cough caps that the pharmacist told me only had DM in it and none of the ingredients that the vet told me to ask her about (their names escape me now but sound like Guaphanine, sudephedrine and something else...)
Each cap has 15mg in it so I gave him 4 caps every 8 hours. He turned into a zombie who could barely walk. The coughing stopped but he can hardly walk a straight line and collapses to the ground over and over.
We were particularily concerned about him last night because he hadn't eaten his breakfast (the new feeding time to try and avoid overnight accidents). We didn't like the idea of all these meds on board and no food in his tummy so we gave him crumbles mixed with some canned food around 7:00p.m. I knew I'd most likely have a pile to clean up in the a.m. but nothing could have prepared us for what we found this morning. In his drugged stupour, he wandered all over their room pooping everywhere and it was diarrhea. It was on both their beds, all over the floor and sprayed on the walls!! It was on all four of his legs too. My husband was very frustrated and for a brief moment thought this was no way to live for Muddy or for us but I reminded him that this would never have happened if we hadn't drugged him and fed him wet food and fed him at 7:00p.m. I cleaned up the room and plan to be the first on the scene from now on for any future clean ups and my husband has agreed to let me try everything to help Muddy without getting upset. I'm just so frustrated that this stupid cough is happening at the same time as the other ailment because we have to get rid of the cough, he's so uncomfortable, hacking throughout the day but the meds required to do it are literally knocking him on his rearend.
I'm bringing in a urine sample to the vet tomorrow morning and I will ask for the Torbutrol for the cough. The vet said it was ridiculously expensive for larger dogs and that is why she suggested the Benylin but I can't keep him in this state. It's not only affecting his balance but his eyes look like he's had a labotamy and he sits and stares at the wall as if he is hallucinating and he pants and pants, even when it's cold. We decided to stop altogether with the Benylin and he has now missed his 7:00p.m. dose and already started coughing a few hours ago.

And to make matters worse, our cat Jimmy, who we rushed to the vet 2 weeks ago was very unwell this morning. Of course it is Sunday! I called my vet and the answering machine said another vet hospital was on call. I called her and she was at a party I think. She was very short with me and basically said that if I were to bring him in she'd have to start from scratch and do every single thing that the previous vet did (xrays, blood work, urinalysis) and all at emerg vet fees. She was basically trying to talk me out of bringing him in. I was so mad when I got off the phone. This is the holistic vet that I had been planning to take Jimmy to in the near future but not anymore. He's doing a bit better now and has begun eating a bit of dry food.


Below are two videos. Before and after. The first one was taken on the evening of September 18th and Muddy is running around the yard feeling pretty good. The following video was taken about an hour ago and he is so different. Just out of it. He falls down in one part of it and it just broke my heart.

[lizbud]

I'm so sorry that Muddy is having these problems. I can see a real
difference in him with the two videos. Maybe the dosage is too much for
him. I sure hope that Muddy & Jimmy are doing much better very soon.

[katslady]

My thoughts and prayers are with you and Muddy, I hope he gets better soon.I hope the Torb. will help and he can function better on it. katslady

[Emeraldgreen]

We got Muddy off the Robitussin right away because the sedating effects were just too powerful. I picked up a prescription for Torbutrol 5mg and he gets a half tab in the morning and another at night. It worked so well for the first 3-4 days but he has started coughing again. It is not as much as when he is not on any meds but he is still coughing. I left a message with my vet but haven't heard back from her yet.
From what I understood, we were trying to get him to stop coughing for a long enough time so that the inflammation in his trachea/throat area would go down. Each time he coughs, it is supposed to be making the inflammtion worse and the inflammation is making him cough.
I don't know if the fact that he has started coughing again means that his dose needs to be increased or if he has something else causing the cough, like a foreign body that the xray didn't pick up.
The other thing is that my dog Finnigan coughed last night in exactly the same way Muddy has been. It was only the one time and he might have just had some food lodged the wrong way, he eats quickly. But now I'm wondering if it is something that is contagious.
They are never in contact with other dogs (because Muddy is not good with other dogs, he's a bit aggressive) and we walk them everyday but around our property, not in public where they might come across other dogs. We have some acreage so they have lots of room to run.
I do think the wolves come around at night and walk through our property and I don't know if there is something our dogs could catch from them?
There is one pack that frequents our area and I just found out they killed another dog about a block away from where we live. My neighbour says they travel through his property and ours on a regular basis at night but I have never seen them. Our dogs sleep inside with us so they haven't had direct contact with them.

But I don't think it is a contagious thing he's dealing with because the xrays showed a clear view of a collapsing trachea with inflammation of the tracheal sac. The vet said an irritant of somesort could have started it.
I'm waiting to hear back from the vet if I should increase his meds or change them.

I gave my vet the information about the Gabapentin that I received in this post (thank you guys for that!!) and she was really interested in it. She called in a prescription for a month's supply. I picked them up but don't want to start Muddy on them until I get him through this coughing/hacking problem. It makes him so uncomfortable.

[jennielynn1970]

Awe... poor Muddy! That 2nd video showing how he acts when he's on the cough medicine is just a heart breaker. I'm glad you found something else for him, but I hope you can find something that will stop the cough all together, or be able to reduce the inflammation so that the coughing stops all together. I hope Finnegan doesn't get it. Geez...

Thoughts and prayers going out to you and your crew. Hope Jimmy is doing better as well. How are the two new kitties doing??

[Emeraldgreen]

Awe... poor Muddy! That 2nd video showing how he acts when he's on the cough medicine is just a heart breaker. I'm glad you found something else for him, but I hope you can find something that will stop the cough all together, or be able to reduce the inflammation so that the coughing stops all together. I hope Finnegan doesn't get it. Geez...

Thoughts and prayers going out to you and your crew. Hope Jimmy is doing better as well. How are the two new kitties doing??

Thanks Jenn.
Finnigan hasn't coughed since that one time so I think it was just him eating too fast. Phew! I called the vet but she wasn't in so I spoke to a different one. She asked what the dose was for Muddy and seemed surprised that he was only getting 1/2 a 5mg tab twice a day. She said there was alot of room to increase the dose and she increased it to 1 tab twice a day. I picked up a two week prescription so hopefully this will knock this cough out!

Jimmy is doing really well. Thanks for asking about him. His belly is still bald from the ultrasound and looks like trout skin, it is so cute. He is on a 2 week treatment of Metronidazole which he hates but he is so frisky and happy lately, it is all worth it. I haven't given him anything but Gastro dry food and Hypo Gastro wet food. It's very bland but he is like a different cat, I'm so grateful.

The new guys are fabulous. Wallace is very shy but we're working on it. I wish I knew more about his injuries from the raccoon attack he suffered before he was surrendered to the SPCA. I think he has some nerve damage because he walks a little funny. He's very slow moving sometimes and almost seems traumatized. I'm going to see if I can get his vet records and once I get through the Muddy/Jimmy health issues, he will be next to the vet.

You probably didn't see my p.s. at the bottom of my post in the thread about Splinter but I'm a huge Indigo Girls fan. Love the new addition to your siggy

[jennielynn1970]

You know, I was racking my brain, thinking I asked about the new guys, and I was on Jimmy's thread, and I didn't see anything... I thought I was losing my mind, lol! So, I asked there too, earlier today, and now I see it was under Muddy's thread. I'm getting old!

Poor Wallace! I hope that he will come around and not be so timid and scared. Raccoons can be nasty and mean when they are being attacked, or if they are protecting young ones. Wallace probably got one heck of a working over by one if he's that traumatized. I hope he will continue to thrive under your care!!

I'll have to check out the Splinter thread. I love the Indigo Girls, and their lyrics just seem to speak to me when I'm down or feeling introspective.