Where do you stand?

[gini]

In a New York Times article today about immigration the Border Patrol stated that there were 1,189,067 apprehensions (arrests) in 2005. What needs to be said is that there may be repeat apprehensions included in this number.

The Border Patrol also said that for every apprehension 2 - 3 people make it through.

Since October in San Diego alone, 90,843 people have been apprehended.
Does that mean that 180,000 or 270,000 made it through? That isn't known.

No one denies anyone basic human rights - a place to live - a job to hold - food on the table.

But just looking at these numbers - how many jobs do we have - to provide these basic human rights? How many can we absorb?

Then it is necessary to discuss health care and education.

There is also the horrific number of 50% of children in Los Angeles County alone that drop out of high school - never get their diploma. Is this the future for our country?

Immigration and how to deal with it is a very difficult question, but it is one we have been giving bandaids to for a long time.

[RICHARD]

Then it is necessary to discuss health care and education.

Do WE HAVE TO?

[lizbud]

Since October in San Diego alone, 90,843 people have been apprehended.
Does that mean that 180,000 or 270,000 made it through? That isn't known.

No one denies anyone basic human rights - a place to live - a job to hold - food on the table.

But just looking at these numbers - how many jobs do we have - to provide these basic human rights? How many can we absorb?

Then it is necessary to discuss health care and education.

There is also the horrific number of 50% of children in Los Angeles County alone that drop out of high school - never get their diploma. Is this the future for our country?

I believe we are seeing the effects of a lot of things coming together
at one time & the results don't look good at all for people without at
least a college education. The age of technology, political choices by our
leaders in government & business changes like outsourcing some jobs all
work to shrink the potential job market in America.High school diplomas
don't prepare kids for life anymore. Maybe 30-40 years ago,someone could
work a factory job & provide a decent living for their family, but not anymore.

Our society is fast becoming one of the haves & have nots.

[BOBS DAD]

I thought the point of the thread to be....immigration reform. It has become a discussion of the behavior of "those people."

Yes, you are correct. But it seems impossible to discuss Immigration Reform without broaching the obvious central theme driving this subject. Illegal Aliens from Mexico. It is a fact that this is at the core of this debate.

With that in mind, it seems appropriate to discuss the political, social and civil ramifications of endless illegal migration. I have relatives in Ca and I know many illegal immigrants and suspect quite a few more. These are in fact, "fine, hardworking terrific people". I feel for them and would do anything I could to help them get "their papers". I must admit though, I could never imagine any of these folks protesting, organizing marches or demanding anything.

I am afraid that the long parade of illegal immigrants from our southern borders has produced an environment in which "just getting here" is no longer a big accomplishment, but that getting "rights" after getting here has become the paramount issue.

It is a tough issue no doubt... but I think we need to take a tough stand and begin to take control again of our borders and not encourage future illegal immigration by rewarding illegal action.

[lbaker]

Just one thought, or should I say one opinion? Illegal aliens generally do NOT want U.S. citizenship. Americans are very vain thinking that everybody in the world wants to be a U.S. citizen. Mexicans, and other nationalities want to remain citizens of their home countries while obtaining the benefits offered by the United States such as employment, medical care, in-state tuition, government subsidized housing and free education for their offspring. Their main attraction is employment and their loyalty usually remains at home. They
want benefits earned and subsidized by middle class Americans. What illegal aliens want are benefits of American residence without paying the price. No need to jump up and down, as I said... just an opinion.

[BOBS DAD]

The thing I don't remember is if they earn this per week or per month. $460.00 a month seems ridiculously low, but $900.00 a week seems a little on the high side, so I'm not sure about the time period.

That doesn't "really" seem high - when you break it down. As a citizen, you can apply for Civil Servant jobs (Postal Workers, etc.) and earn decent money. You also stand a really good chance of being hired as minorities are given preference and extra points on their exams.

$900.00 a week is only $3,600.00 a month and $46,800.00 a year. That sounds about right. Not to mention that many people choose to continue to hold side jobs - often working for their initial employer (when they were not citizens and sometimes illegals).

Being against Immigration Reform or Anti-Illegal doesn't make you a "bad person" or a bigot. You are just excercising some of your rights as an American citizen - the right to dissent, to have an opinion and freedom to express your point of view!

[Edwina's Secretary]

I'm not sure I agree that some of the comments here have not been rather bigotted....but it is not against the law in any case.

But thre are some myths being repeated here that I think we should explode.

They don't pay taxes.
I don't know about your grocery store but mine does not have a line for those who are legal residents....taxes collected and a separate line for those who are not legal....no taxes. Furthermore, if someone is employed using an illegal social security number...they pay state income tax, federal income tax, and social security income tax (FICA). Because they are illegal, they will never collect social security nor can they file a return and get back any overpayment of taxes.

All the stuff they get free
It is true many foreign nationals do not want to give up citizenship in their native country. That does not mean they want to work here illegally. Despite what some think....it is not comfortable (nor easy) to be in this country illegally. You must always be afraid. Deportation hangs over your head. When I worked in the software industry we had many foreign nationals -- legally (H1-B). Some were interested in citizenship. Some were interested in permanent residence. Many planned on returning someday to their home country. (Always was an issue convincing them to participate in the 401(k). Until they understood they could take it with them.)

An aside at this point....we were hiring H1-B's because we could not find US educated graduates in the software field. I would have preferred to do so. Cheaper of course. My dream was to find a US educated and raised female with the right training. But math and science isn't cool to many of our young people.

There are many countries throughout the world which depend on their citizens working elsewhere and sending home wages. Egypt, the Phillipines are examples.

It is a complex problem with many layers. I do not know what the solution is. I don't think blaming it ALL on Mexican immigrants is the solution. I don't think builidng a wall between the US and Mexico and mass deportation is the answer.

And I don't think taking a Those People attitude helps the discussion. We have seen it before. There was a law denying immigration to Chinese, there was the Know Nothing political party -- dedicated to anti-immigration and anti-Catholic in the 1800's. There was the common sign in business in the 1920's and 1930's....NINA No Irish Need Apply.

Rather than a revisionist and emotional attitude about immigration in the past in this country, I think we should take a realistic and factual look at it and see if we can learn how it fix it this time.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

$900.00 a week is only $3,600.00 a month and $46,800.00 a year. That sounds about right. Not to mention that many people choose to continue to hold side jobs - often working for their initial employer (when they were not citizens and sometimes illegals).

If the illegals are getting $900 a week I'm going to really freak out!!! I don't even get $1000 a month on my Social Security disability after working for over 20 years and paying taxes and Social Security. !!!

[Edwina's Secretary]

MOFF....Debbie's post said immigrants who become citizens earn, on average $900.00....as a contrast to illegal immigrants earning $460.00. So that would be....naturalized citizens earn on average $900.00. That is about the national average for a family of four.

But here we see how myths are spread. It went from what Debbie said to illegals earning that amount....becoming postal workers and getting special points for being minorities. NOT ALL IMMIGRANTS -- legal or illegal ARE HISPANIC.

Does anyone wonder how the earnings of illegal immigrants are measured?

And...my grandmother had her children at home by midwives. Most women did. She had no health insurance. Health insurance did not come about until WWII. Employers were under wage and price controls as an attempt to prevent inflation as employers compete for the suddenly limited availability of workers. So to comply with wage controls they began offering fringes, such as health insurance to attract workers.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

MOFF....Debbie's post said immigrants who become citizens earn, on average $900.00....as a contrast to illegal immigrants earning $460.00. So that would be....naturalized citizens earn on average $900.00. That is about the national average for a family of four.

But here we see how myths are spread. It went from what Debbie said to illegals earning that amount....becoming postal workers and getting special points for being minorities. NOT ALL IMMIGRANTS -- legal or illegal ARE HISPANIC.

Does anyone wonder how the earnings of illegal immigrants are measured?

And...my grandmother had her children at home by midwives. Most women did. She had no health insurance. Health insurance did not come about until WWII. Employers were under wage and price controls as an attempt to prevent inflation as employers compete for the suddenly limited availability of workers. So to comply with wage controls they began offering fringes, such as health insurance to attract workers.

Thanks for clearing that up. I wasn't even making that much in wages after working for an insurance co for 20 years even with a college education!!!

I've always wondered how they measure things like how certain people's earnings are measured too. Along with how do they know which people women vote for or African American's vote for. They must have our supposidly secret ballots marked somehow. Maybe that's what that x is on the bottom of our ballots. (we still use a pencil when voting here).

[BOBS DAD]

"Long Haired Freaky People" need not apply...

And the sign said long haired freaky people need not apply
So I tucked my hair up under my hat and I went in to ask him why
He said you look like a fine upstanding young man, I think you'll do
So I took off my hat I said imagine that, huh, "me working for you"

WOW!!! I just made that up. Honestly!!!


"All the stuff they get free"...?

There are many statistics that suggest illegal aliens do in fact receive free medical care and social services at a staggering cost to the American economy. I could list many of them here, but I am afraid that it would sound quite slanderous and terribly unfair to the many wonderful, hardworking immigrants who "do" contribute positively to our society. BUT THOSE STATISTICAL FACTS ABOUT HEALTHCARE, WELFARE and LAW ENFORCEMENT are readily available if you choose to find them.

Yes, it's tough - this "immigration thing" and what to do about it, but let's not dance around the facts. It will not help anything and will only serve to prolong the fear, anxiety and discomfort that illegals experience.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Since this is America.....I will continue to believe there are many bigotted remarks being thrown around on this thread and you will continue to believe I am deluding myself.

Oh by the way.....dreaming of finding a female candidate for a traditionally male position is called outreach or affirmative action....not illegal.

But then....Rush Limbaugh probably doesn't mention that.

Truth, justice and the American way....one out of three isn't bad.....

I just made that up...honest.....

[BOBS DAD]

Truth, justice and the American way....one out of three isn't bad.....

That is a good one. I like it. I think it will stick!!!

Rush Limbaugh??? Now that's a crackup! What an idiot!!! NOW THERE'S YOUR BIGOT! I am not sure if you think I really ever listen to Rush Limbaugh (except when I want to hear what the ultra conservative, right winged bigots are thinking today). Any fair minded person can see right through the Rush Limabaugh's of the world. NO... I prefer Al Franken and his popularly titled book, "Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot"!!!

But back to one of my earlier posts and a comment you referenced. I did not say that my "grandparents" were born at home but rather "my father". He and his 9 siblings! I am not sure of the facts but I was under the impression that most folks were seeking medical assistance at that time in our country - whether it be a Doctor making housecalls or a visit to the hospital. BUT I AM NOT SURE. Even my mother and her siblings (Coalminers daughter) had a Doctor present. But again, not the point... Point is that they made their own way and their presence in America was no drain on the economy or healthcare - same as your grandparents.

ISN'T IT FUN TO AGREE TO DISAGREE... ONLY TO ULTIMATELY AGREE ON "MOST" THINGS!!!

[Edwina's Secretary]

I assume your grandmother gave birth to your father. I know that is the way it worked in my family!

I said....

my grandmother had her children at home by midwives

Perhaps I should have been more cleared and said delivered by midwife so as not to suggest created by the midwife....

According to my father's stories...poor families especially...only sought medical assistance in an emergency...which did not include childbirth. But, in any case, you paid cash. Or chickens. Medical insurance came later.

When I see people picking strawberries in the fields around here I struggle to think they are getting a free ride and not making their own way....

It is all too true that immigrants (as well as many others!) in this country had a rough time of it and social safety nets were pretty much nonexistent. Hurt at work....oh well! Unable to work because of age or disabled? That's what kids are for....to support you. No food?....there's the bread line.

I just don't know if we really want to use those good old days as guiding principles today.

[BOBS DAD]

Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary: MOFF....Debbie's post said immigrants who become citizens earn, on average $900.00....as a contrast to illegal immigrants earning $460.00. So that would be....naturalized citizens earn on average $900.00. That is about the national average for a family of four.

MOFF, you ae not seriously thinking that naturalized citizens earn a mere $900.00 a year, are you? Or am I just misunderstanding Edwina's post?

Could be... sometimes things get lost in translation. I was referencing Debbie's earlier post - where she mentioned that she read some figures about a jump in wage earning from an illegal to a legalized citizen. And in referencing her post, I said that it "sounded" plausible. "Sounded" is the operative word here, as neither Debbie (I don't believe) or I have any hard data to support this presumption. BUT, it only stands to reason that those who have the where-with-all and knowledge to realize their dream of citizenship have in fact tapped into the government programs for betterment through education and job training. An Immigrants' legal status opens the door to job-training and work-support programs. Indeed, eligibility for most government-sponsored programs is restricted to legal immigrants under federal law.

BUT FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE... don't take anything your hear or read here at PT as Gospel. We are all just blabbering about subjects that most of us cannot claim expertise on. If you know how to use the Internet to connect to PT, then you certainly can research these subject yourself through "SEARCH ENGINES" and Keywords. Try to find government sponsored sites with no political agenda - straight statistics. Also look for Non Partisan Research Groups sites. Here is a good one for anyone interested: http://www.urban.org/url.cfm?ID=310880

It is a Brief on "Immigrant Families and Workers: Facts and Perspectives" by the URBAN INSTITUTE ( a Non-Partisan Economic and Social Policy Research Organization). It is very interesting and more "reliable" than we pet lover's dribble here at PT! Not as much fun to read, a little dry and no "shots below the belt" - OUUCCHHH... but far more factual.

In fact, while I am at it. I recommend everyone utilize the Internet in their rearch when voting as well. IT IS AMAZING WHAT YOU CAN LEARN AND DISCOVER. When I was young and going to the polls, I used to againize over who was right, who was wrong, who's telling the truth and what records can I research to see who is most closely aligned to my own thinking and political philosophies. AND NOW... NOW... my answers are at my fingertips. It is truly amazing the breadth of knowledge and facts accessible on line. If a candidate says another voted for or against something "everytime" it came up. I can easily check that fact by checking voting records listed online at government sites and who voted for what. It is truly amazing how much people lie or stretch the truth!!!

That's enough rambling for now. More on that subject at a later date. Back to work... before they deport me!!!