is this cruel?

**jackie** · 02-17-2005, 10:16 AM

In another internet forum i post in, someone put out a "FAO ALL PUPPY OWNERS" and recommended anyone who has a puppy or dog who is a strong puller, should buy this

a lot of people jumped on her saying it is a cruel collar. and she posted this website which clains it is very safe http://www.cobankopegi.com/prong.html

what are your thoughts???

here is a link to the thread, if anyone wants to read it all FAO ALL PUPPY OWNERS

**LorraineO** · 02-17-2005, 10:21 AM

Depends on the size of your *puppy*... some *puppies* can be huge and need the prong collar,, I for one love the collar,, it was useful in training Lucy to not pull and now she is magic %99 of the time on her reg collar,,, Before using the prong,, it was HELL!!!!!!! Using the prong collar correctly is NOT cruel in my humble opinion!

**aly** · 02-17-2005, 10:23 AM

I think it is very cruel and am 100% against those training methods. I only do positive reinforcement training and believe that there is no place for any negative, physical training methods. I train shelter dogs (lots of wild adolescent puppies in the mix) and positive reinforcement is always successful. Sure, with some dogs it will take longer. But with positive reinforcement, you will form a wonderful bond with the dog instead of scaring the poor thing into submission. I could go on for days about how wrong those choke/shock/prong/etc collars are. I've been to several workshops, conferences, and internships with wonderful dog behaviorists and trainers who all agree that these horrible prong collar days need to be over. It is a very old school way of training. People are more educated now, more studies have been done, and it is time to be a POSITIVE source of fun and learning for your dog.

**LorraineO** · 02-17-2005, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by aly
People are more educated now, more studies have been done, and it is time to be a POSITIVE source of fun and learning for your dog.

I did try ALL the methods known to man for @ 2 months,, but after having my arm pulled out of my socket a few times,, it was time for something new... so out came the collar,,,, I dont think its cruel because used properly,, its the dog that controls the pressure,, not the handler. If it hurts or is uncomfortable,, Lucy stopped pulling,,,,, it took us a total of 3 days for her to catch on,, and now its gathering dust in my closet,,, I need to add that I did not scare my dog into submission,,,, it was her choice to stop pulling,, I never once pulled myself on the leash to make the collar tight....
Oh,, and saying people are uneducated because they use a prong is kind of,,, well insulting.

**aly** · 02-17-2005, 11:52 AM

Well that is how I feel after many years of research. I stand firmly in my beliefs.

Many people who take the obedience classes I teach claim that they've done everything possible and ask about using the prong collars. Of course, they are not allowed in class and I strongly advise not using them at home either. By the end of the obedience courses, those people have always succeeded in making good progress on training leashwalking with positive reinforcement exercises. It might take longer than 3 days this way, but it sure beats the alternative.

EDIT: I made my original post before even reading replies (because there weren't any yet) so I was not directing my post at anyone. They are my feelings on the subject and I have the right to express them, just as people with opposing views have the right to say so

**LorraineO** · 02-17-2005, 12:27 PM

I totally agree that you have the right to voice your opinion,,, what I dont agree with is you calling those of us who have and do use the prong as uneducated... no need to be insulting because you dont agree is all *I* am saying

**lute** · 02-17-2005, 12:33 PM

i don't think they are cruel as long as you use them properly. i know a little old lady that has a huge GSD. that dog would drag her around if it weren't for the collar.

the collar may look mean, but it really doesn't hurt them. when the dog pulls on the leash it pinches them and makes them stop.

**LauraT7** · 02-17-2005, 12:42 PM

Tristan came to us with a collar similar in operation to the prong collar, except that it was 1" nylon and of course, did not have prongs. the idea behind these collars is that they pinch closed to a snug fit, so that they can't be pulled off (like a buckled/ fixed collar) nor can they get continually tighter like a choke collar ( like a slipnot)

Tristan was a BIG puller at first, and I tried the gentle leader, (he would not walk at all with it) and the fast turns, I had given up on walking him, only taking him places he could run free or use the long line - as he had pulled my shoulder out so badly I could could barely stand it. I tried kinds of things before resorting to a prong collar - AFTER researching how they work.

Esp since Tristan had some problems with eating, and the vet figured he had some damage to his throat from a choke chain at one time.

If a prong collar is properly fitted - you remove or add enough prong links to simply MEET snugly around the dogs neck. the prongs should not 'dig' into the skin, they should just snugly put pressure on the dogs neck. it is NOT a 'choke collar" as it does NOT get tighter and tighter as they pull (like a slipnot) - as you can see in the photo - there is a limit to how tight it can get - only as tight as the rings meet. it disburses the pressure around their entire neck.

Especially with a large puppy or a large dog that has a thick ruff - like a golden or a shepherd, the prongs work through the thick fur to put even pressure around their entire neck - unlike choke chain collars, that can pinch in one place and pull painfully on their fur. The prongs are blunt, not sharp, and if you want, you can even get plastic tips for them.

Once Tristan learned how to NOT pull with his prong collar, we didn't need it anymore. If he 'forgot' i would bring the collar out for a day or two of 'reminder' and he would go back to not pulling.

I would always advocate trying a gentler method FIRST - but as a last resort, prong collars DO work and ARE humane. IF they are properly fitted and used!

laura

**senorita02** · 02-17-2005, 12:52 PM

I have never used a prong collar, but i do use a choke chain only when walking the dogs, as u know my dogs are well over 100 pounds especially Senorita she is very large and very strong, i would not be able to walk her without a choke chain, she doesnt pull as much anymore, most the time she just casually walks at my side, with Face he is a perfect walker so i could really use any collar with him.
At home i dont have them wear collars, in the house, just cuz they seem like it would be uncomfortable to always have something on your neck.
I think if used properly there isnt any reason not to use those type of collars on very large strong dogs. And i didnt use them when they were puppies.

**EssTer** · 02-17-2005, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by lute
i don't think they are cruel as long as you use them properly. i know a little old lady that has a huge GSD. that dog would drag her around if it weren't for the collar.

the collar may look mean, but it really doesn't hurt them. when the dog pulls on the leash it pinches them and makes them stop.

I agree with Lute

**Jadapit** · 02-17-2005, 12:53 PM

When I first started walking Jada she pulled me so bad that I wanted to cry. She almost ripped my arm out of it's socket. She is a very strong dog. Our walk time was NOT fun. Not for her or me.

I went to a pit bull site and I asked everyone on there what to use when I walked her and almost all of them told me to try the prong collar. These people totally love their dogs and they would never use anything that would hurt them. I did get the collar and omg what a difference it made. We could go on a walk and we both could enjoy it. They told me on that site to use the prong collar for awhile until she learned not to pull and then go back to her regular collar. It worked like a charm.

**Logan** · 02-17-2005, 01:01 PM

We have used a prong collar, successfully, with our Honey (Golden Retriever). Sometimes, the "choke" type chain doesn't work as well with the long haired dogs, I think. I know that some peopel are very much against them, but our girl learned to walk beautifully on the leash and she never seemed to have pain or suffering associated with this type of collar. Once we had her under control on her walks, we never used it again.

All of the "hoopla" is associated with proper use. It could be used inappropriately, but we learned how to properly use it and had a much better girl on our hands, one that we could control more easily and was safe from the lunging and other things associated with the pulling that leashes and collars bring.

Logan

**PJ's Mom** · 02-17-2005, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by lute
i don't think they are cruel as long as you use them properly.

I agree. I have never used one, but if I had a large dog, and felt it necessary, I would probably give one a try.

**aly** · 02-17-2005, 01:09 PM

I didn't call anyone uneducated. I said that it is an old school train of thought ... and it is. Read a book by any of the nationally recognized positive reinforcement behaviorists. They all say that.

All I have to say is I would never put one of those things around my neck, therefore, I will never put one around my dogs' necks. Especially when I know much better techniques that WORK.

Originally posted by LauraT7
Tristan came to us with a collar similar in operation to the prong collar, except that it was 1" nylon and of course, did not have prongs. the idea behind these collars is that they pinch closed to a snug fit, so that they can't be pulled off (like a buckled/ fixed collar) nor can they get continually tighter like a choke collar ( like a slipnot)

We use those collars at the shelter and in obedience classes. But they aren't meant to be used in leash training at all. Just as a precaution that the dogs don't pull out of their collars.

Well, the dogs DO wear them during leash training I mean. But we don't use them to jerk around the dog or anything like that.

**My Peanuts** · 02-17-2005, 01:13 PM

My boyfriend has a 145lb Akita and he has a collar like that. I only saw them use it on him in the beginning. I haven't seen them use it in years, but Grizz (the Akita) walks better on a leash now. I agree with others that say they aren't cruel if used properly. Sometimes it's for the dogs own safety. When I would walk Grizz before he knew how to walk on a leash it could have been dangerous. A large dog has a lot of power. Combine that power with a puppy brain and you have trouble, so sometimes those collars are necessary. When Grizz used it he never squeaked or showed that he was in any pain.