Breed Standards

[Rooroo]

Just wondering what the general consensus is on breed standards,

personally though I think the majority of the standards are for the good of the breed. (as a biased owner of a blue Wiem) I feel some are Silly and out dated.

We have yellow, black, and chocolate labs.

Why not Blue Wiems?

anyone else think some of the breed standards are a little "old"?

[GoldenRetrLuver]

I think being "old" is good in a way. It helps preserve the breed for what it was meant to be. Like personality, colors, structure, weight, height, etc....

[binka_nugget]

I guess there's some good to it. For example, the sheltie's standard. If they were to change the height standard, some people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a collie and a sheltie. But some, I'm not a fan of. For example, the border collie's standard. I'm not sure if they updated it or not but for a while, some of the "best" border collies only looked good and wouldn't be able to herd at all.

[cali]

I agree with binka on the border collie standerd, as it was made by AKC, not the parent club. the parent club did not exist untill a year AFTER the standerd was written by people whos ONLY conection with border collies were giving them ILP #s I dont agree with most standerd though, because its not for the good of the breed, its for the looks of the breed and only the looks. these things are not for the betterment of the breed, since when was breeding dogs that cant walk(german sheperd) cant see(adding about 10 inches to coat lengths) and giving them a TONE of genetic problems, and dogs that cant work if there life depended on bettering the breed?

[cali]

oh ya and binka they DID change the height standerd. several times. its rar that you see a breed that fits the standerd that looks ANYTHING like they did orginally. sheltues used to be little dogs, they did not have a humugous full coat, and well basicly they never looked like they did until collie was added to the breed, hence why they look like mini collies, they are not but, many many years ago some collie was added to the breed. also the breed standerd for a sheltie used to be tiny like full grown could fit in a dolls bed tiny

[binka_nugget]

Originally posted by cali
oh ya and binka they DID change the height standerd. several times. its rar that you see a breed that fits the standerd that looks ANYTHING like they did orginally. sheltues used to be little dogs, they did not have a humugous full coat, and well basicly they never looked like they did until collie was added to the breed, hence why they look like mini collies, they are not but, many many years ago some collie was added to the breed. also the breed standerd for a sheltie used to be tiny like full grown could fit in a dolls bed tiny

Wow! really? I've read that a reason for some bigger shelties is because of a collie that was thrown in not too long ago.

[Moose]

I'd have to agree with both Jules and binka_nugget on this one. A breed should keep in its "original." When people/breeders start straying from the original standards of a breed, something just doesn't sit right with me there. I can't really think of the words I want to use now, but I just don't like it. It almost takes away from the "older" breed....

[Twisterdog]

I think being "old" is good in a way. It helps preserve the breed for what it was meant to be. Like personality, colors, structure, weight, height, etc....

I agree.

[cali]

but that is not what the standerd does, dogs that fite these standerds are absolutly NOTHING like the original breed, thats the problem, they revise the standerd as much as they want for the sole purpose of looks.

[Twisterdog]

but that is not what the standerd does, dogs that fite these standerds are absolutly NOTHING like the original breed, thats the problem, they revise the standerd as much as they want for the sole purpose of looks.

You are speaking of your experience with border collies. Not every breed is like that.

The smooth fox terrier breed standard, for example, is almost exactly like the original breed. And the standard is not at all for the sole purpose of looks. Not at all. In the breed standard of almost every terrier, it states the attitude and temperment of the dog must be fiesty, strong-willed, brave, etc. Terriers are not disqualified or docked points for actually starting fights with other dogs in the ring. Points are not necesarily taken off a terrier's score in the confirmation ring due to scars and scratches, either. They are first and foremost working dogs, even in the confirmation ring.

If the border collie conformation standard is not what you think it should be, that is not the fault of the AKC or any other registry organization. It is the fault of the border collie breed club. They are the ones that set the standard. The breed club with the most members, political pull and winning dogs ends up being the official parent club. Lots of people complain, after the fact, about "barbie" collies and Parson Russell terriers, etc. But the fact of the matter is ... if they didn't like the direction their breed was headed, they should have organized themselves before registry recognition, and done something about it then.

[Rooroo]

Ok, well here's what my issue with the standard is,

Weimaraners are by breed standard a light gray, however the "BLUE" coat is genetically dominant to the gray coat. The big problem I have is not that it is a recognized fault, but that ppl discourage the breeding of the Blue dogs because they are not perfect, I think this is silly because a Blue dog who has otherwise perfect characteristics can have perfect little gray puppies. So why not broaden the gene pool a little more and breed Blue dogs that have good hips, teeth and coats?

I had my Blu fixed, but just the same if I could have I feel I should have bred her she's otherwise a Beautiful specemin, and I don't just say that because I'm her mommy she gets comments from everyone, even at the Vets office EVERYONE has to stick their head in and see my Baby Blu.

(and personally I'm finding I think that the Blue Coat is much more striking)

[GoldenRetrLuver]

Originally posted by Rooroo
So why not broaden the gene pool a little more and breed Blue dogs that have good hips, teeth and coats?

Because, like I said, responsible breeders are trying to keep the breed as it was when it was first created, which is a mouse gray-silver gray coloring. I agree with you, the Blue Weims are gorgeous, just some breeders have their preference as to which colors they like. IMHO.

[Twisterdog]

Originally posted by Rooroo
Ok, well here's what my issue with the standard is,

Weimaraners are by breed standard a light gray, however the "BLUE" coat is genetically dominant to the gray coat. The big problem I have is not that it is a recognized fault, but that ppl discourage the breeding of the Blue dogs because they are not perfect, I think this is silly because a Blue dog who has otherwise perfect characteristics can have perfect little gray puppies. So why not broaden the gene pool a little more and breed Blue dogs that have good hips, teeth and coats?

I had my Blu fixed, but just the same if I could have I feel I should have bred her she's otherwise a Beautiful specemin, and I don't just say that because I'm her mommy she gets comments from everyone, even at the Vets office EVERYONE has to stick their head in and see my Baby Blu.

(and personally I'm finding I think that the Blue Coat is much more striking)

Then the answer to this, and any other issue dog owners and breeders have with a standard .... change the standard. Yes, you can. There is no mysterious Higher Power of Conformation that sets the standards. We set the standards - the owners, breeders and fanciers of a breed. There is no they setting the standards - there is just a well-organized and outspoken group of us. If you think blue weimaranars should be recognised, start a group that will make it happen. Or, join one that already exists. Majority rules. If 75% of Weimaranar breed club members want blue weimaranars recognised, they will vote the change in, and petition the AKC for the change. Happens all the time.

[cali]

the border collie standerd IS AKCs fault, the border collie parent club did not exist until a year AFTER the border collie standerd was written, by AKC people who knew nothing about the breed, they wrote the standerd for what people who have had no dealings with the breed think they should look like. and many many breeds the bosten terrier for example before AKC got a hold of then they did NOT look like they ran into a wall.

[Twisterdog]

the border collie standerd IS AKCs fault, the border collie parent club did not exist until a year AFTER the border collie standerd was written, by AKC people who knew nothing about the breed, they wrote the standerd for what people who have had no dealings with the breed think they should look like. and many many breeds the bosten terrier for example before AKC got a hold of then they did NOT look like they ran into a wall.

Can you post documentation of this? I've personally never heard of the AKC writing a breed standard on it's own without consulting a breed club. According the AKC, they "will accept dogs registered with the American Border Collie Association (ABC), the American International Border Collie (AIBC), and the North American Sheepdog Society (NASD)." So, could you please enlighten me?

Also, what exactly about the AKC breed standard concerning border collies don't you like? No where in the breed standard does it say, "This dog is no longer allowed to herd sheep." Many, many conformation champions also have herding titles. I've heard a lot of BC people complain about the show dogs having "all that hair"; however, the breed standard allows for shorter coats as well as the long, rough coat.

Boston terriers were recognised by the AKC in 1893, 110 years ago. They are a native American breed, created in Boston, Massachusettes. The predesesors to the AKC recognised Boston's were still in the "development" stage, and did not necesarily breed true. By the time the breed was recognised, shortened faces were the breed standard ... for the last 110 years.

From the AKC breed standard for Boston terriers, "The muzzle is short, square, wide and deep and in proportion to the skull. It is free from wrinkles, shorter in length than in width or depth; not exceeding in length approximately one-third of the length of the skull. The muzzle from stop to end of the nose is parallel to the top of the skull."