Should This Soldier Be Charged ?

[lizbud]

I read this CNN report and was very shocked to hear that the
U.S. Army would even consider ANY charges against this young
soldier. He still faces dereliction of duty charges. This seems
very wrong to me. What do you think?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/...ice/index.html

[2kitties]

I think there is more to it than CNN is reporting. I rarely understand the ways the military chooses to govern itself. But my father was military and Chris was military. So, I've come to see through their eyes that civilians aren't meant to understand their ways.
Sounds strange, I know, but we civilians aren't always privvy to what's going on in there. Training soldiers to value order and their country over their very own lives is very tough and often requires a different kind of order.

[Logan]

I heard this discussed on Talk Radio this week, Liz. It is perplexing. Personally, I'm glad he asked for help, and I am glad he was willing to admit the issues he was dealing with. In the end, it might save his life and the lives of his fellow soldiers. I do hope he will be treated fairly. I have a great appreciation for what these men and women go through. I do not have the "stuff" these brave people are made of, for sure.

[moosmom]

It goes to show you that this young man is only human. Since he suffered from panic attacks, I believe they should honorably discharge him and get him the help he needs.

I suffer from depression and panic attacks. No one knows better than I what goes on with these dibilitating problems. When you have a panic attack, you freeze, hyperventilate and are incapacitated. Depression is a whole other issue which I won't go into.

So I believe this poor guy needs help. I'm sure after witnessing what he did he'll problably suffer from nighmares and PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder).

And you are probably right, I'm sure there IS more to the story.

[mugsy]

Well, I read the story, I shared it with Mike since he has been in the Army and was in intelligence and has been in Iraq.

Like 2kitties said...military life is a totally different world with a totally different set of rules than the "real" world.

So, that being said, I guess he should be charged with dereliction of duty. Military intelligence needs to be ready to face anything thing that comes down the pike and be able to handle it. Now, understand that CNN obviously did NOT give the whole story, so depending on what REALLY happened, I may change my mind.

He did save a lot of lives by being sent home. If you can't take the pressure you shouldn't be there, and honestly shouldn't be in the position that he was in.

I know I've said before that CNN skews its coverage of the war, so I smell more of a story than what is being reported. I think I'll go out and see if I can find a more moderate report of what happened. I will also then read Fox's report and formulate my opinion on the whole matter. Even Mike said that there was something missing in the story.

[babolaypo65]

As others have said, I'd like to hear the whole story. if he is, however, having true panic attacks, then I'd say a mental/emotional disability should be treated the same as a physical disability.

[Soledad]

I love the idea that CNN has skewered coverage, yet FOX is utterly reliable. Funny stuff!!

I hope this guy gets the help he needs, though.

[Karen]

I think she was implying that CNN's coverage is skewed in one way, and Fox's is skewed in another, so that by reading both - and other independent sources, she can get a clearer picture of the whole story.

[catland]

try google news. you can serch for this person's name, (or the word "cowardice") and find other sources of this story.

Some of the articles go into more details, and this helps to give a clearer picture. Also, you can find articles from other countries.

I also find it interesting to listen to the conservative opinion and the liberal opinion so that I can try to figure out the truth which is usually somewhere in the middle.

[Soledad]

I think it's good to get your news from a variety of sources, but I think a lot of people think if you slap the words "fair and balanced" you'll actually get fair and balanced. FOX, as a journalistic enterprise, has some pretty darn shady connections and practices on an editorial level that make me shudder. Editors should not be forcing their journalists to come up with the ending/moral of the story as they see fit. It's about getting as many answers and facts as you can and letting the viewers/readers come to their own conclusions. In this sense, FOX is about as corrupt as they come.

[mugsy]

Well, being that this thread is not about the news channels, I guess it really doesn't matter in this discussion.

Here is something I found on www.blah3.com (which from the titles and editorial comments, is pretty liberal). This is just one line from the article....but, here is a little more about what he is being charged with...

The Army says he is guilty of "cowardly conduct as a result of fear" and not performing his duties as an interrogator for a squad of Green Berets in Samarra, Iraq.


I'm continuing to look....

[Soledad]

I really admire the fact that you go hunting around for more info on stories that you're interested in, Mugsy. It's really something I wish more people would do, you know, actively seek out other views and sources.

It's a great example regardless of what political label you might wear.

[catland]

Originally posted by Soledad
... I think a lot of people think if you slap the words "fair and balanced" you'll actually get fair and balanced. FOX, as a journalistic enterprise, has some pretty darn shady connections and practices on an editorial level that make me shudder....

I agree.

Ultimately, its about the ratings and making money.

Now, back to this guy with the panic attacks - it will be an interesting story to follow.

[mugsy]

Ok, back to the matter at hand. Here is a story from the hated Fox News. I only posted this one because it was the longest one I could find with the most information. Oh and I found another site that was a message that this guy had sent asking about some other military policy. Honestly, he sounds like a HUGE whiner. I have suffered from bouts of severe depression and from panic attacks and anxiety, but would not have asked to be put in the position that this guy was put in. And I'm sorry, but, he is in the military, so he should know that he might go to a war zone and that in a war zone you will see horrific sights and be subjected to things that no human being should have to see. If he suffers from these things, why did he go into one of, if not THE, most stressful job there is? Just asking. Based on what I have read so far and I've read about 20 accounts now from various sites and I think he should be charge with dereliction of duty and be dishonorable discharged or dead minimum a discharge other than honorable. Ok, my novel ends with that!! lol

Here's the article.

Thursday, November 06, 2003

FORT CARSON, Colo. — The Army dismissed a cowardice charge and filed a lesser count against an Army interrogator who sought counseling after he saw the body of an Iraqi man cut in half by American fire.





Staff Sgt. Georg-Andreas Pogany was charged with dereliction of duty, according to a statement released Thursday afternoon by Fort Carson (search) officials. A military court hearing set Friday for Pogany was canceled.

The new charge was filed by the company commander after military judges dismissed the cowardice charge, officials said. "He believes that this charge is most appropriate to address the alleged misconduct based upon the evidence that is currently available," an Army statement said.

Army officials did not immediately return phone calls for comment. Neither did Pogany nor his attorney.

Attorney Frank Spinner, a retired Air Force colonel who handles military cases, said dereliction of duty is a minor offense that, if disposed of without a court-martial, usually is penalized by loss of pay or reduction in rank.

With a court-martial, the maximum penalty is several months confinement, said Spinner, of Colorado Springs (search). Whether a court-martial is held depends on the military judiciary.

After seeing the mangled corpse, Pogany says he began shaking and vomiting and feared for his life. Soon, Pogany says, he had trouble sleeping and started suffering what he thought were panic attacks.

Six weeks later, Pogany, 32, was charged with cowardice, a count that he said was filed after he sought counseling. Pogany denies that he acted in a cowardly way.

"What is tragic about this is the message being sent to other soldiers," Pogany said recently. "It's not about me."

Cowardice violations can be punished by death. Military code does not include a minimum sentence.

Army officials have declined to discuss the case.

Cowardice charges are rare. The last such conviction in the Army occurred during the Vietnam War. Charges were filed against a married couple during the Gulf War (search), but reduced to mistreatment of public property, said Eugene Fidell, president of the National Institute of Military Justice.

"You have to look pretty hard to find any of these cases," Fidell said. "We have a well-trained army that is a motivated one."



Pogany's case and others that are similar suggest Iraqi deployments are wearing thin, said military analyst Dan Goure of the Lexington Institute, a Washington, D.C.-based think tank.

"I think what you are seeing here is a consequence of the changed character of an all-volunteer force," Goure said. "The strain gets worse when you have longer deployments or multiple deployments or changing deployments."

Assigned to the 10th Special Forces Group, Pogany was attached to a team of Green Berets on Sept. 26 when he departed for Iraq. He declined to discuss his responsibilities, citing security issues.

Three days later, he was standing in a U.S. compound near Samarra north of Baghdad when soldiers brought in the Iraqi man's bloody body. The soldiers told Pogany the man was killed after he was seen shooting a rocket-propelled grenade.

Pogany said he was shaken, couldn't focus and kept vomiting. He told his commanders he believed he was suffering from panic attacks or a nervous breakdown and requested counseling.

At least one officer suggested he consider what such a request would do to his career, Pogany said. When he sought help, "I was told that I was wasting their time," Pogany said.

Pogany was examined by psychologist Capt. Marc Houck, who concluded he had signs consistent with normal combat stress reaction. Houck recommended Pogany be given a brief rest before returning to duty, but he was sent home to Fort Carson in mid-October and charged with "cowardly conduct as a result of fear."

Pogany said he asked three times to be given time to adjust and complete the recommended treatment while in Iraq.

Pogany said he can offer a credible defense. "If the Army decides to go down the route of character assassination, I have plenty to show I have been a good soldier for five years," he said.

His attorney, Richard Travis, speculated that Pogany may have received more help if he had been assigned to another unit.

"All he wanted was some help dealing with the physical reaction he was having, including vomiting, shaking and inability to sleep," Travis said.

[lizbud]

Sounds like some people think the cowardice was the result
of panic attacks, not so. They, along with other physical symptoms
described in the article in the Blah link, were the result of seeing
what he saw. He was asking for help. What if he had just
freaked out & started shooting anything that moved. Would he
then be considered a brave but ill soldier?

Army Dismisses Soldier Cowardice Charge

Friday November 7, 2003 2:01 AM


By ROBERT WELLER

Associated Press Writer

FORT CARSON, Colo. (AP) - The Army dismissed a cowardice charge and filed a lesser count against an Army interrogator who sought counseling after he saw the body of an Iraqi man cut in half by American fire.

Staff Sgt. Georg-Andreas Pogany was charged with dereliction of duty, according to a statement released Thursday afternoon by Fort Carson officials. A military court hearing set Friday for Pogany was canceled.

The new charge was filed by the company commander after military judges dismissed the cowardice charge, officials said. ``He believes that this charge is most appropriate to address the alleged misconduct based upon the evidence that is currently available,'' an Army statement said.

Army officials did not immediately return phone calls for comment. Neither did Pogany nor his attorney.

Attorney Frank Spinner, a retired Air Force colonel who handles military cases, said dereliction of duty is a minor offense that, if disposed of without a court-martial, usually is penalized by loss of pay or reduction in rank.

With a court-martial, the maximum penalty is several months confinement, said Spinner, of Colorado Springs. Whether a court-martial is held depends on the military judiciary.

After seeing the mangled corpse, Pogany says he began shaking and vomiting and feared for his life. Soon, Pogany says, he had trouble sleeping and started suffering what he thought were panic attacks.

Six weeks later, Pogany, 32, was charged with cowardice, a count that he said was filed after he sought counseling. Pogany denies that he acted in a cowardly way.

``What is tragic about this is the message being sent to other soldiers,'' Pogany said recently. ``It's not about me.''

Cowardice violations can be punished by death. Military code does not include a minimum sentence.

Army officials have declined to discuss the case.

Cowardice charges are rare. The last such conviction in the Army occurred during the Vietnam War. Charges were filed against a married couple during the Gulf War, but reduced to mistreatment of public property, said Eugene Fidell, president of the National Institute of Military Justice.

``You have to look pretty hard to find any of these cases,'' Fidell said. ``We have a well-trained army that is a motivated one.''

Pogany's case and others that are similar suggest Iraqi deployments are wearing thin, said military analyst Dan Goure of the Lexington Institute, a Washington, D.C.-based think tank.

``I think what you are seeing here is a consequence of the changed character of an all-volunteer force,'' Goure said. ``The strain gets worse when you have longer deployments or multiple deployments or changing deployments.''

Assigned to the 10th Special Forces Group, Pogany was attached to a team of Green Berets on Sept. 26 when he departed for Iraq. He declined to discuss his responsibilities, citing security issues.

Three days later, he was standing in a U.S. compound near Samarra north of Baghdad when soldiers brought in the Iraqi man's bloody body. The soldiers told Pogany the man was killed after he was seen shooting a rocket-propelled grenade.

Pogany said he was shaken, couldn't focus and kept vomiting. He told his commanders he believed he was suffering from panic attacks or a nervous breakdown and requested counseling.

At least one officer suggested he consider what such a request would do to his career, Pogany said. When he sought help, ``I was told that I was wasting their time,'' Pogany said.

Pogany was examined by psychologist Capt. Marc Houck, who concluded he had signs consistent with normal combat stress reaction. Houck recommended Pogany be given a brief rest before returning to duty, but he was sent home to Fort Carson in mid-October and charged with ``cowardly conduct as a result of fear.''

Pogany said he asked three times to be given time to adjust and complete the recommended treatment while in Iraq.

Pogany said he can offer a credible defense. ``If the Army decides to go down the route of character assassination, I have plenty to show I have been a good soldier for five years,'' he said.

His attorney, Richard Travis, speculated that Pogany may have received more help if he had been assigned to another unit.

``All he wanted was some help dealing with the physical reaction he was having, including vomiting, shaking and inability to sleep,'' Travis said.