Nelson Mandela on U.S. actions...

[Soledad]

Interesting article here:

Mandela on Iraqi War

[sammi]

Nothing when I click the link.

[Fuzzy317]

Mixed up title and url, here it is.

Mandela on Bush

[Soledad]

Whoops! Sorry, I've edited the original post.

I was amazed at the language Mandela used. I found it refreshing to come across a high profile and well respected person willing to speak out, without mincing any words about their view on the impending war.

I'm curious about the effects of such comments. He is a very well respected man around the world, and especially America. I wonder if there will be a campaign to discredit him or if people will be appreciative.

[Ann]

Yeah, I read about this a day or so ago at BBC (this article) and I too was surprised at his bluntness; no sugar-coating there! I'm glad to see such a powerful and well-respected man speak up.

And to answer your question, I have heard people discredit him already >_< I posted about this at another forum I go to (where discussions like these are totally allowed and appreciated) and someone said "He's becoming senile and doesn't know what he's talking about.".

[Soledad]

It's also interesting how even Stormin Norman is against it. What is the government thinking???

[KYS]

From the web site: If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the United States of America. They don't care for human beings," he said. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


I am not a Bush fan, and I believe Mandela has a right to his opinion. After all I live in a free country.
That is all it is an opinion and he should look into his
own back yard.
The U.S. might not be the most perfect
country, but they are the most generous country when
it comes to helping others.
THe U.S. is the number one Country in the World
when it comes to giving money and support to other nations
in need. As for South Africa, they have their
own racist problems.
As for unspeakable atrocities, we might not be perfect
but open up your eyes and see what is going on in the rest of the world today and what has been done in the past.
I wonder why so many people of all shades of color
and different religions try to come to America
for a better life???
I do not like to talk politics, and I do not like to country bash.
My family is from Russia and I remember the horrendous
stories my grandparents would tell me what happened over
their and other parts of Europe.
When they came to America many years ago,
my grandmother refused to speak Russian, and she brought us up to kiss the ground we walk on, because we are Americans and we have it easier than other countries in the world even though
this country is not perfect. We have FREEDOM.

I will not post again and stick to dog stuff.

[Paul]

   I want to read an actual transcript (or watch the video) of Nelson Mandela's speech before commenting.

   I read the articles about the speech but I do not find them refreshing nor helpful.

      Paul

[Soledad]

Well, the comments will all be perceived differently. But I think that anything off of the AP line is pretty trustable. So I don't think you'd find much variation from a full transcript. These are strong statements and it's hard to think that he padded it out.

I think that dissenting opinion is underreported in the States. The fact that someone who most Americans adulate like Mandela is saying such strong things and there's barely any coverage of it, that just strikes me as odd. Add to that Schwarzkopf and other Middle East experts dissenting views and you have something that adds up to more than odd, something more like censoring.

Why do people find blind acceptance of Government actions patriotic? How does that help anyone? Why get defensive when criticisms are made? Why not try to find out why it is they have that view, and see if perhaps they see something that you, being on the inside, had not seen before?

[Ann]

Originally posted by KYS
The U.S. might not be the most perfect country, but they are the most generous country when it comes to helping others. THe U.S. is the number one Country in the World when it comes to giving money and support to other nations in need.

Actually, that is as far from the truth as you can get.

To quote a rant/article I wrote once (I'm not dumb enough to post a link to it here; knowing the response I'd get... If you want to read the full thing you are free to let me know and I'll provide you with the link):

"The USA often tries masquerading as a helpful country; always ready to aid poor and needy countries with it's wealth. However, the USA's aid (in terms of percentage to their GDP) is the lowest of any industrialized nation in the world! For example, Denmark was the country that gave the most money to poor countries in 2001. Denmark gave a whooping 1,01% of their GNP while the USA only gave 0,11%."

Paul, several news sites have quoted him the exact same way. And those are all respectable sources like BBC, so I fail to see why you need even further evidence.

Soledad, I couldn't agree with you more. Your last paragraph was extremely well put, thanks and kudos for that.

[mugsy]

I am going to post once and only once on this thread, because I knew it would make me angry, and it did.

1. Nelson Mandela has absolutely NO room to talk about atrocities. Look in your own backyard babe. I have a friend who lives in South Africa and has to have a gate around her house to protect her and her family...and that STILL didn't work when 2 men got in and broke her car window and then pulled her out and beat the living hell out of her, just because she is white.

2. South Africa has the highest rape rate in the world. There have been estimates that 1 in 3 women will be raped at some point in their lives if they live in South Africa.

3. The U.S. was one of the first countries to jump on the bandwagon to help South Africa rid itself of apartheid. I remember that when I worked at the bank that we stopped selling kuegarands (I'm sorry I don't know the correct spelling) because the U.S. wasn't buying them anymore.

4. I'm sick to death of this anti-American rhetoric. It seems to some of those on this thread think that the Americans can't do anything right. We aren't supposed to stick our nose in anyone's business, yet, we get raked over the coals for not providing enough aid to other countries. Make a command decision, either you want our help or you don't.

5. IF America is such and awful place to live, why, then, do so many people want to come here to live? And why, are they so passionate in their adoration for this country and its freedoms?

6. I used to have the utmost respect for Nelson Mandela, and you couldn't find a more ardent supporter of him, but no more. As soon as he played the race card, I was done. I guess he forgets what country was instrumental in getting him out of prison and who supported him in his administration.

7. Ann, the U.S. gives support to just about any country who needs it, whenever they need it, so don't go there.

8. Why was it ok to go into Bosnia and get rid of Milosovich, but not ok to go into Iraq and rid their people of a rotten, evil dictator? Perhaps because it was Clinton who went into Bosnia and it's Bush who is going into Iraq? Hmmmmm....

9. I am not, nor never will be, a Republican or a Democrat in this country, I am an independant thinker. My only thought is, let's be fair. I don't like the idea of war anymore than anyone else, but, if you're not involved, stay out of it.

[Ann]

So you're saying that unless your country is perfect or you are directly involved in this war you don't have the right to speak?! Well, for one, no country is perfect. Yes, some countries are better than others but there is no such thing as a perfect country nor will there ever be. So because South Africa has problems Nelson Mandela can not talk about the flaws of other countries?! And secondly, this war will affect the whole world, in one way or another, especially if it will be fought with nuclear weapons. Technically, the only people directly involved in this war is people like Bush. So we, the civilians and people of the world should just keep quiet cause we're not "involved" enough?!

As for the comment that we cannot make up our mind about the USA helping or not, it's quite simple actually. According to UN resolution all industrialized nations in the world must help poor countries. However, no where does it state that those nations get the right to play world police and meddle in other countries businesses or politic affairs. There's a big difference there.

And yes, I will "go there" since it's a proven fact that the USA does give the least money out of any industrialized nation in the world. It's true, it's not as if I'm sitting here making it up you know.

I have to go eat dinner now but I will respond to the rest of the things you said later.

[mugsy]

You really needn't bother, I don't really care, but if you want to go ahead. Your opinion means as much to me as mine does to you.

[Paul]

   I need the transcript because the quotes do not make any sense to me. From several sources I have read it said that US is completely arrogant; it's only about oil; the UN is good; Bush is a racist he would respect the UN process if only the Secretary General were white.

   This does not add up. If so we would be like the President of Iraq when he wanted Kuwait, we would not go to the UN, we would not debate, we would just conquer.

   President Bush is not a racist. Colin Powell is Secretary of State for only one reason. President Bush chose him.

   It's not just about oil. We had control over the oil wells; we gave up control. Americans spent our money and some Americans risked their lives to put out the oil fires. Putting out the fires only benefitted people in the region. Given the amount of oil burned it did not effect the price of oil.

   Some of the quotes by themselves amount to just name calling. Children calling each other names is childish. For a statesman to resort to baseless name calling in such a life-or-death matter is reprehensible. If all that can be done is name calling then the next step may very well be bloodshed.

   For me the transcript may flesh out the quotes.

      Paul

[mugsy]

Paul,

They had a report on Fox news about it I know. I agree with what you said that it doesn't make sense, but that's what the man said. I'll look and see if I can find it.

Molly