Leerburg Obedience training?

[cyber-sibes]

Has anyone ever used the obedience training materials by Ed Frawley of Leerburg Kennel? I've been looking for help with some of Jack's issues, & this material looks promising. - not too strict, not too leinient. Before I start ordering, just wanted to see if anyone here had any experience with his methods.

[vinjashira]

I don't know what his training method is like, but his narrow-minded views about some countries are enough for me not to want to know any of his methods.

(read the page "Countries I Will NOT Do Business With" from his website)

[cyber-sibes]

I haven't read too much besides the training stuff, but his ego certainly comes through. He's definitly opinionated.

[Blackrose]

Hmmmmm....I have never heard of him before, so I started to read a bit on his website....didn't sound too bad, but I did come across some things that I personally wasn't comfortable with.

The reaction from the dog needs to be avoidance not aggression or more growling. If the dog growls when you correct him the correction needs to be harder.

I always thought answering aggression with aggression was a bad thing....

but if one gets really snarly or tries to fight [with another puppy] I say "PHOOIE!!!" and I grab the offending pup and shake it by the back of the neck until it screams. I let it go and pet it to calm it down to show it that I still love it and I do not hold a grudge.
I usually only have to do this a few times before the pups respond to "PHOOIE" Most quickly learn that I am the pack leader and I am the one that says who can and can not fight.

Then I put two muzzled adults together and take them for a walk. They both have leashes on. I do not allow them to square off and fight. If they do I get right in the middle of it and show them who is the pack leader. If these are big tough males with a lot of protection training and they turn on me I give it to them even harder.

This mouthiness goes away at 4 1/2 to 5 months of age.
How a person deals with this depends on your goals for the dog. If your child is very young (a baby), the pup needs to be corrected for chewing on the child. Grab it by the nape of the neck and shake it until it screams when it even goes near the baby.

He seems to be contradicting himself when he gave this bit of advice:

You forget that your dog is a baby. Would you grab a baby and shake it for crying at night - I think not. Put a radio near it and a rug to lay on. Read my article about house training. Crying in the crate goes away on its own if you ignore it - which is the only thing to do.

And yet any other time it is okay to scruff shake the poor puppy...

This concept must become very black and white to the dog. Aggression means getting my head taken off with a prong collar and not being aggressive means getting praised. The dog must understand that if a strange dog comes near, my pack leader will kick it’s butt and deal with the situation.

And yet, I was able to teach Blackie to behave around other dogs without having to take his head clean off with a prong collar. Simple tiny tugs to get his attention along with treat lures and teaching him heel did the job for me.
And besides that, I thought jerking with a prong collar was a BAD thing. I was told over and over again that a prong was NOT the tool of choose to help with Chloe "divebombing" other dogs on our walks.

You made a number of mistakes. 1- You should not have tried to keep an intact male Rot as a house dog. You found out why. The dog should have been neutered or kept in a dog kennel.

(This was after the Rottie bit his owner when she was holding onto his collar.)
Huh? I know someone who owns an intact Rottie as a house pet...no problems there.

When a dog jumps on you, the solution I use is to grab the front feet and pinch the toes until the dog screams. The pinch needs to be held for several seconds (the dog will usually chew on your hands a little.) I can stop a puppy from jumping on me in one training session.

Hm. Making the dog sit and ignoring it when it jumps on you works just as well, and the dog isn't terrified of you afterwards!

He has some good ideas, but the things coming out of his mouth listed above would be enough for me to not get his books and videos. According to him, how I'd get Chloe to stop counter surfing is plop a prong collar on her, clip a leash on her, and every time she puts her paws up tell her off and when she doesn't comply, jerk her clear off her feet hard enough to make her yelp. No thanks. She might not jump on the counters anymore, but I don't want her to be terrified of me either.

I'm all for using corrections in dog training when they are needed, but I don't believe in using extreamly harsh corrections to get a simple point across. I think the only time I've ever used a harsh correction was out of adrenaline when one of the dogs (might have been Blackie?) lunged at a car. Scared the crap out of me as it was out of the blue. He got pulled off of his feet and was extreamly submissive afterwards. Didn't fix the problem at all. Sit/Stays and rewards did.

And then there was this bit that bugged me as well....talking about the use of a "dominant dog collar":
"What handlers should not do with these collars is jerk on the collar like you would with a prong collar. That’s not how the dominant dogs collars are intended to be used. Jerking on a choke collar will cause muscle damage to the dogs neck.

Lifting the dog up the way I have explained does not cause any damage to the dog it simply takes their air away. This is not painful but it really gets the dogs attention."

Yep, and letting a dog hang itself after jumping off of the grooming table is an awesome way to teach the dog to not jump off of the table and to hold still for grooming. Hanging a dog really shows it who's boss. Reminds me of spinning the dog around on the end of the leash to correct it in ancient histroy dog training.

I heel the dog to this location and attach the line to the dominant dog collar. At that point I will do something that causes the dog to attack me. When he does I offer the arm with the hidden sleeve. When the dog is biting the arm the second handler will raise the dogs 4 feet off the ground. I remain totally calm and look the dog in the eye and tell him he will not bite me.

The dog stays there until he passes out. Then he is lowered to the ground and lies there until he regains consciousness. Then we start again. Usually these kind of dogs will only have to be hung 2 or 3 times and they quickly learn that you are a big person - the way they look at it is that you have the power to kill them at any time. This is a big big point in establishing dominance with dogs like this.

Granted that is for extreame cases with human aggressive dogs, but good grief!

[lizbud]

I read his views on dog training years ago. I thought he understood
that GSDs are very powerful animals and do need a no nonsense type
of approach in training. I usually had to take the advice with a little salt,
but he was helpful to me.

Don't know if he still does, but he used to breed & sell GSDs. They were
gorgeous dogs.

[mike001]

I've read most of his methods, he just doesn't fit my image of a great trainer, I find his methods much too rough for pups.

[crow_noir]

Just reading through what you cross posted Blackrose. What give me pause is how this guy seems intent on "holding" the punishment. Do people forget so easily that when a dog is "correcting" another dog it is a mere few tiny seconds or milliseconds. Why should we do any different. The only time a dog is "holding" a punishment is when it is an aggressive dog continuing the punishment. (With the exception of time outs. Even then dogs giving time outs to other dogs generally give them for shorter time period then humans to. Some of the time periods humans give would be the equivalent of telling a dog it's banished from the pack.)

[Blackrose]

Just reading through what you cross posted Blackrose. What give me pause is how this guy seems intent on "holding" the punishment. Do people forget so easily that when a dog is "correcting" another dog it is a mere few tiny seconds or milliseconds. Why should we do any different. The only time a dog is "holding" a punishment is when it is an aggressive dog continuing the punishment. (With the exception of time outs. Even then dogs giving time outs to other dogs generally give them for shorter time period then humans to. Some of the time periods humans give would be the equivalent of telling a dog it's banished from the pack.)

This was a thought that crossed my mind as well. I use "punishment", or correction, with Chloe. Trust me, I used all positive training with her, we'd get no where.

But from all that I have read and experienced, when you correct a dog, you should use the least amount of correction possible and as SOON as the dog shows the slightest sign of "okay, okay, I understand", you stop. For instance, your dog has a toy it isn't supposed to have. You don't scold the dog and keep yelling at it even when its ears are back and it is hunkered down.
If the dog is jumping on people, you don't pinch its webbing until it yelps if before the yelping it is trying in every possible way to be submissive. That just teaches the dog that its signals are being ignored.
I don't agree with punishing a dog for jumping to begin with....it thinks it is doing a good thing, but then you are punishing it without teaching it what you want first. I'm sure if every time Chloe jumped (she is a SPRING POLE!) on someone and they pinched her feet she'd stop jumping, but she'd be terrified of people...you touch the cookie sheet coming out of the oven and get burnt that doesn't stop you from baking cookies, but it does teach you to be afraid of the cookie sheet.

[Giselle]

I've read some of his articles and training advice, and it all sounds like physical domination. Unless you have an exceptionally hard dog, every punishment can create fear.
(hardness: "the dog's ability to recuperate from a disagreeable experience")

That said, I think Frawley is another Cesar Millan and I don't agree with either of them. They have some good ideas, but their good ideas are overshadowed by their ignorance towards real dog behavior. Alpha dogs don't grab the scruff of puppies until they scream for mercy. That's called violent abuse, not respectful leadership.

[cyber-sibes]

Hmm, I appreciate the feedback from everyone. I thought he sounded a bit over the top on some issues, and don't agree with everything he says, which is why I wanted some opinions.

So, do you have favorite training methods? I've taken basic classes with Star & clicker training with Rosie (which I hated), Sherman was an angel & didn't need further training, but I need a little help with Jack. He's pretty well behaved overall, but there's a weird dynamic going on between him & Star. He's very headstrong, competitive, and the biggest problem is that he is aggresive towards smaller dogs at the dogpark. It could just be very physical rough husky-style, but it's hard to say. The little dogs don't think so, they freak out. So I haven't been able to let him run off-leash to burn off some of that energy.

I have contacted a couple local trainers but haven't heard anything back yet. Thought if I found dvd's of some good lessons on basic training it would help me cope with him better.

[Cinder & Smoke]

So, do you have favorite training methods?

I have contacted a couple local trainers but haven't heard anything back yet.

... some good lessons on basic training it would help me cope with him better.

Pat ~

Look in the local *Yeller Pages* under "DOG Training (clubs, associations)" or
"DOG Obedience" headings ...
Around here and around Pittsburgh, there are "non-profit training CLUBS" who advertise
in the Yellow Pages and often put Flyers or even price lists out in places like Pet Shops and
Vet Offices. You usually have the option of just paying for basic classes OR
Joining the Association/Club as a member - getting a discount on classes and events.

Most classes are for small (10-15 max) Dogs & Hoomins; the dogs work on social skills
while the Moms or Dads listen to the Trainer - who's teaching the Hoomins.
Then every few minutes you try out the drill with Fido ...
but promising the Trainer and Yourself that you're going to *practice* with Fido every day
as "homework" before the next week's class.

Most "clubs" have LOTS of experienced Trainers who can be hired at reasonable fees
to provide one-on-one training if you like.

[crow_noir]

I REALLY liked the author of The Other End of the Leash. ...problem is that the book didn't give many actual training tips... just mostly insight into the dog's mind. Or rather humans' misunderstanding of the dog's mind and what actually goes on in the typical human brain.

She lives in WI and is a professional consultant. (Heard she has a darn good radio show too.) (Doesn't do any of us a darn bit of good though, her being in WI. )

Better not tell Koli about Jack's behavior. She might call him up and ask if he wants a "running" partner. (More like a partner in crime.)

[Giselle]

That would be Patricia McConnell. I love her; she is a true pioneer in the science of dog behavior.

If I'm not mistaken, Huskies tend to have a pretty high prey drive, right? Additionally, I *think* Jack is pretty young. Combine a high prey drive with high energy with a wide open space with small dogs, and you've got a perfect recipe for disaster. This is why I can't let Ivy associate with small dogs, either. At home, she's fine with my Peke, but dogs play without thinking. In a perfect world, every dog park would have separate sections for small/big dogs.

[crow_noir]

Yes, that's her. Thank you!!!

Many Huskies have a high prey drive. Not all mind you, but many.

Or you could have my favorite dog park's view of a perfect world... where dogs of all sizes get along beautifully! and they do there. (Then you come back down to reality and you have the local dog park that had the forethought to put in divided sections. More often than not though the small dog side is used for the dogs less likely to get along with other dogs. I like the idea of the time out pen that the Findlay dog park has.)

That would be Patricia McConnell. I love her; she is a true pioneer in the science of dog behavior.

If I'm not mistaken, Huskies tend to have a pretty high prey drive, right? Additionally, I *think* Jack is pretty young. Combine a high prey drive with high energy with a wide open space with small dogs, and you've got a perfect recipe for disaster. This is why I can't let Ivy associate with small dogs, either. At home, she's fine with my Peke, but dogs play without thinking. In a perfect world, every dog park would have separate sections for small/big dogs.

[cyber-sibes]

I'll look into Patricia McConnell. It's possible her radio show is available thru the web.

Phred - already checked out local resources. Classes have already begun by the two trainers on the island, plus I don't have the $200.00 classes fee right now either. ( Classes are more than twice as expensive back in Ohio & in IL!) I'm looking for a quick $40 or $50 "refresher" course do-it-yourself training books/dvd's.

Yes, huskies are notorious for their prey drive. Star has a "kill list" as long as your arm, but she is very gentle with small dogs & puppies. She & Sherman got along well with everydog at the dog park. I've read suggestions on slow introductions with rewards so the dog associates the other dog being in their line of sight with good things, then down the hall, closer, etc. But there's no small dog around to practice with.

I assumed that since he was a show dog, he'd been around dogs of all sizes. But he did live in a large pack of rowdy huskies, so I guess that's what he knows. He & his sibs played really rough...like huskies. At his kennel, they work hard at socializing their puppies. They do not tolerate the slightest bit of aggressive behavior. He's perfect with humans of all sizes, extremely easy to handle. I have accepted that he may never be able to be a "regular" at the dogpark. I'll just have to find off-times with no small dogs. With cold weather coming, I hope that will be easier. There were months when the only dogs I'd see in Findlay dogpark were other huskies!

Thanks for the suggestions.