New Dog Owner :)

[SnoGrl]

Hi all,

My husband and I are new to owning our very own pet. We live in a 2 bed/2full bath duplex with a nice deck and small backyard. We just (on Monday) picked up our newest family member, Sadie. We got her from the Humane SOciety, so we know nothing is "for sure" with her...but they "think" she is an English Spaniel at 10-12 weeks of age. We are taking her to the vet on Wednesday to get the low-down on her.

Ok, So my concern/problem. We have decided we are going to crate train Sadie. We have a bit of a developing problem. We started out by "showing" her how to get in the crate. She followed us ONLY if we were partially in the cage with her at the time. Then we decided that was silly and traded our bodies, for her food and water dish in the crate. Last nite, after a quick trip over to meet Nana & PawPa (my parents), she pretty much refused to go into the crate. We had to "trick" her by putting a treat in the crate towards the back on her pillow. That just barely worked after my husband tried to show her it was ok to go in. This morning before we left for work, she resisted heading for the crate again. We gave her a treat while she sat outside the cage, then we laid the other half in her kennel. She "started" in for the goodie but realized it might be a trick and backed off. We had to encourage/coerce her to continue on in. We are worried that by forcing her into the crate, that she will not think of it as a safe haven, as her room.

Have we started off wrong already? We wonder if it has anything to do with the fact she was in the cold humane society cage for a week without getting out except when we came over. We work all day and are still figuring out a schedule that will suit all of us. We are going home at lunch to let her out b/c 4-5 hours is the max she can hold it.

But tell us, how do we teach her that the crate isn't a bad thing? Are we doing something wrong? Is it bad to force her in? Is it bad to trick her with food & water or a treat? We have done so much research on how to train our puppy...but we can't find any answers for this potential problem. She has to be crated for her own safety and for our carpet's safety!

Please advise these new puppy owners!

Thank you...

[Gio]

I'm afraid I can't give you any advice on crate training, I'm sure that a lot of the others will be able to advise you on that. I just wanted to welcome you one the board!

[zippy-kat]

I, too, know nothing about crate training. Just wanted to welcome you to the board. Congrats on the new pup!!


This sounds like a good question for Carrie. Where art thou Carrie? lol

[RachelJ]

Thank you for adopting your puppy from a shelter and thank you for realizing that a puppy cannot be expected to *hold it* for very long. A good guideline is as many hours as months the puppy is old, but even that is pushing it a little. The process of getting a puppy used to a crate is a slow process and obviously you have been thrust into the situation quite quickly. I'm going to leave the advice for this area to those of us who have had more experience in this than I have had. I hope that when you are at home, Sadie does not have to be in her crate, except for bedtime. Being in there all day long, she is going to need a lot of mental and physical exercise at other times. I would like to recommend a book called Good Owners, Great Dogs by Brian Kilcommons and Sarah Wilson. I know they also have a website which I will try to locate for you. Good luck and thanks for joining us here at Pet Talk.

I found it: GreatPets.com

[ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: RachelJ ]

[carrie]

Sorry, I am going to be of no use on this one either. I do not believe in crate training dogs unless all other paths have been tried to control an undesirable behaviour. As the dog in question is a baby the only treatment needed is time, good handling and sensitive training. I have never resorted to using a crate yet (no doubt the day will come!) A warm comfortable bed and interesting toys and some paper for a safegaurd will grow a happier and better adjusted puppy.

This is my personal opinion and many here disagree with it, so, as I said, no help at all!

[SnoGrl]

Why is crate training bad (asked out of ignorance!)? We are planning to use her as a hunting dog. We will begin that training as soon as her little tummy heals up What are other avenues? We aren't home during the day and would prefer she not stay in the garage all day (no sunlight). There is so much wood she could destroy in every other room. We thought we were being so cautious about our duplex by crating her

Please advise!

Jill

Originally posted by carrie:
<STRONG>Sorry, I am going to be of no use on this one either. I do not believe in crate training dogs unless all other paths have been tried to control an undesirable behaviour. As the dog in question is a baby the only treatment needed is time, good handling and sensitive training. I have never resorted to using a crate yet (no doubt the day will come!) A warm comfortable bed and interesting toys and some paper for a safegaurd will grow a happier and better adjusted puppy.

This is my personal opinion and many here disagree with it, so, as I said, no help at all!</STRONG>

[Snowy's Mommy]

Hi Jill,

Welcome to the board!

I did not and would not put Snowy in a crate because I feel that it is cruel and dogs need to have stimulation during the day....having them sit in the crate all day is mean.......having them get used to it as a means of relaxation to go to sleep at night is different, because that is their "safe place".

Is there anyway that you could cover some of the furniture while you are both at work?

It's good that you are asking these questions and being responsible about obtaining knowledge before going forward--don't be afraid to ask questions!

[ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: Snowy's Mommy ]

[3-greys-and-a-mutt]

My husband and I crate two out of our four dogs, and I have no problem with it. I don't want to do it forever, but the two that I crate are safer in their crates than out of them, I feel. First, your dog should not wear his collar in the crate, as he may get his tags stuck between the bars, and strangle himself.
As for getting him in the crate, you may have to just pick him up and set him inside, until he gets used to it, and close the door right behind him. (We have 3 greyhounds, all of whom were crate-raised, and they go right in without a fuss. Our little Pup, who we found when she was about 6 months old, threw a fit about going into her crate, so we had to place her in it.) Boo and Pup now both run to their crates when we say 'kennel up!' We crate because we have 4 young dogs, and don't want the pack mentality to take over when they are home alone. When Boo and Pup are older and calmer (haha) we plan to leave them uncrated, but separate the dogs into different parts of the house using baby gates.

[carrie]

I don't feel that leaving a puppy in a cage for 4 hours twice a day is an acceptable way to bring it up. If you don't have the time for a puppy - don't get a puppy. If you have problems with having a puppy in the house - don't get a puppy.
Again this is my opinion, I am not trying to pick a fight or upset anyone, it is just how I feel.

[KYS]

Originally posted by SnoGrl:
Why is crate training bad (asked out of ignorance!)? &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;

(Warning this is going to be long:
SnoGrl,
Crate training is not bad as long as it is not abused. Some people use the crate
to jail a dog instead of training, or
in liu of spending time with their pet.
Only 2 of my dogs is partially crate trained.
Getting a dog use to a crate is a very good idea.
In an emergency, such as earthquake, fires etc., overnight stay at vets, flying,
traveling in a car. These are just a handfull of reasons to get your dog use to a crate.
Dogs are den animals, so once they get use to it they should actually like their crate.
Try placing the crate where you wish it to remain, in a draft free place near the center of your household activity.
Leave the door open but put the dogs toys inside.
Allow the dog to explore it's crate freely.
Once the dog is comfortable, moving in and out of the crate at will, begin confining it in the crate for short periods of 15 minutes,
gradually increasing the time to 3-4 hours,
once a day.
You can even feed the dog all it's meals inside the crate at first.
Never use the crate as a punishment, or
in lieu of training or because you just
don't have time for the dog.
I personally do not believe in crating a dog more than 4 hours a day.
I do not crate my dogs, but I do have crates on each side of my bed with the door open.
I have been repremanded by others for not fully crate training my dogs etc. or
not crating them when they are in my car.
They way I look at it, everyone's living situation is different. I choose not to crate my dogs, but I do try to get them use to the crate. Others swear by crate training.
You should be able to find information on
crating on some of the rescue shelters
web sites or training sights, or you local
book store.

[Pam]

Bella is crate trained as two of our other four poodles were. I think you will find that most breeders recommend this, especially for making housebreaking easier. Most puppies will not soil their crate. This helps them "hold it" a little longer, but as Rachel said they can usually only hold it for an hour for each month old they are (that sounds confusing....what I'm trying to say is 2 months old, 2 hours, 3 months old, 3 hours, etc). Bella's breeder gave us lots of information about housebreaking and crate training and this was set forth in our info.

No, crates are never to be used for punishment or for extended periods of time. Bella goes in quite willingly and is so used to our morning routine that when she sees the kitchen blinds being closed (the last thing we do before leaving) she walks right in. I work part time so she is not in there very long at all. I am sure she mostly sleeps while I'm away, just like she would do if I was home (she usually naps after breakfast and a morning run in the yard even on the weekends).

I don't plan on keeping this up indefinitely but probably for a couple of more months until I can be sure my house won't be in shreds when I return.

[carrie]

KYS, I'm really sorry to disagree, with you especially, you give advice and support from the heart, are kind, loving and one of the best kind of dog people there is. But....!

To compare a cage to a den is very confusing to me. In the wild a puppy will have litter mates and a babysitter. By the time a babysitter is needed the pup will be out of the den and spend most of his awake time playing and exploring, only retreating to the den when danger threatens. On fine days most sleep will also be outside of the den. Before a babysitter is needed the pup will have the almost constant attention of his mother and the constant companionship of his litter mates. The den always has a roof and solid walls. This is (my original opinion, again!) behaviour "specialists" looking at owning a dog in the easiest way possible for owners with little real thought or consideration.
In an emergency such as a fire in the home when you are not there how is the dog being shut in a cage going to help it or keep it safe? Dogs in this situation are trapped, not helped. In an earthquake things for the dog, if anything, get even worse! There is so much research now that few people can argue the fact that animals, including dogs, know when an earthquake is imminent. To put a dog in a cage, let it fret for three hours knowing that it is trapped and what is coming rather than it fretting and letting it choose it's own best place to go for survival doesn't sound like a great idea to me.
At the vets your average dog that is crate trained does not settle down to sleep and feel safe because it is used to being in a cage. It is still anxious and worried about the fact that almost every time it goes to the vet it means something unpleasant is going to happen it.
Travelling in a car should be second nature to any dog that has a car in the family. Putting a cage in the back of the car to protect the dog has nothing to do with the crate in the house. If introduced even late in life to a dog that enjoys car travel the cage has no adverse effects at all. If you have a dog that you think fears the cage in the car, it doesn't. It is the car that is the problem.
Air travel is not going to be less stressful for a dog used to a crate. The only way to get a dog used to this kind of travel is to do it a lot from when the dog is young.
Putting the crate in the centre of household activity is another way to disprove the "den" theory. Dens are the place to go when you are in danger or need some peace. If your den is constantly surrounded by people rushing around, kids playing and other animals going past you move dens!
Comparing a cage to a den is very popular and some trainers would have you believe it is the only way to treat a dog like a dog should be treated. I don't think so. I think this is what a lot of people want to hear as it ties in their desire to own a puupy with the lifestyle they live. It is a quick fix, some dogs will cope. My question is should they have to?

[Corinna]

Not to make any one angry but I beleive in crate trainning. Merlin was started the day we brought him home at 10 weeks old ,We had some one home all day though. We made it his bedroom and his safe place. When he doesn't want to be bothered he goes there,and no one does.At first we just threw his toys in to make it a happy place.Then we only close it for about 5 mintues,we did this for about 20 mintues. Then at that night he went in very well. Please thought do remember it is a safe place but not a punishment place. Also puppies do need to go out a lot, we took him out every 2 hours and told him to do his business. They catch on very fast. Good luck.
PS Merlin is a English Springer Spaneil ! and he says welcome!

[Daisy's Mom]

Hi SnoGirl, and welcome to Pet Talk! Congratulations on adopting your new pup! She sounds adorable.

We crate trained Daisy and I never felt cruel doing it. I think it was the right decision. We were home almost all the time, but if we went somewhere, she went into the crate with toys and a bed. She also slept in there. Carrie, sorry to disagree, but Daisy's behaviorist said it is like a den to her. It's their private get-away. They will not go to the bathroom there because they know they have to sleep there. If Sadie seems to not like going in her crate, it may be because of the shelter. Try putting a kong in there with her to distract her, and NEVER use the crate as a punishment. She will grow to like going in there. Good luck with your new pup, and keep us updated on how she is doing!

[carrie]

I can not say often enough a crate and a den are not the same!

If people are at home and have been persuaded to see a crate this way then fair enough - if you had a basket, rug on the floor or a piece of foam that was the dog's place it would serve the same purpose.
You are both saying that you were at home. The "den" is a safe place for puppies that have an adult, or litter mates for company.
The original question is asking if it's OK to put a pup in a cage for up to 4 hours and leave it every day in the belief that the pup is happy and secure in it's "den".
Again, I have to say, I think not.