What else can I do??

[Stenograsaurus]

I have a Shepherd, Patience. I also have two horses. When Patience is outside, she will bark nonstop at the horses. I have tried the pennies in a can. I have tried tellin her no bark and dumping water on her if she continues. I have tried a muzzle. I have tried walking up to her, holding her nose shut and saying enough. I have stood there with my arms folded looking up in the air. She doesn't even notice I'm there. She is so fixed on the horses (or whatever it is she's barking at at the time), she doesn't see or hear anything around her. When I walk up to her and close her mouth and pull her head up towards me to make eye contact, she will still have her eyes focused on the horses (or whatever else it might be). I have to put my face right in front of hers before she'll take her eyes off of them. Then as soon as I let go, she's right back at it. The horses have been here for two weeks and it has not let up at all. Is there something else I could try?

[RachelJ]

I know the type of barking you are referring to and I think that is the worst type to have to deal with. I'm thinking that if she could become more acquainted with the horses - up close, that might be of some help, but with her being in the state that she is in, I don't know how you would attempt that. Right now they are something different and unusual invading her surroundings. There may be a possibility that she will eventually get used to them being there and this behavior will diminish.

Rachel sounds right on. Have you done introductions with the horses and her yet? Maybe that would help. Ease her into it and at some point she will get used to them... I HOPE! I know exactly the type of behavior you are referring to as well and it is very hard to deal with. The dog is so completely focused on that one thing and no matter what you do, you won't get their attention. Is she around you and the horses when you are grooming or lunging (if you do any of that)? Do the horses seem upset by Patience? If not then you could try letting her near them when you are around the horses and see what happens. You obviously want to be very careful so she doesn't spook the horses and she or you don't get stomped on! But, it might do the trick!

Maybe Patience just has an identity problem and thinks she is an Australian Shepherd or Border Collie !

[Stenograsaurus]

Any time I take Patience near them on a leash, she will jump up at them and try to bite them. When I am out there and go near the horses, the barking intensifies. I don't let that stop me though. If I want to spend time with the horses, I will do it. I don't let her barking stop me. Patience has to get used to that. Patience has gotten loose a couple of times and just ran with the horses. She didn't try to bite them then. She was loose for less than a minute. The horses are not bothered by her at all. Rebel tryiesto get as close to the dogs as he can. I think he's enticing them. I am hoping that everything will calm down eventually. I figured after two weeks I would see some improvement though.

[carrie]

What other things does she bark at?
What is her level of obedience and what type of collar do you normally use?
Don't give up hope on this, intoroducing the horses to her is a great idea....but PLEASE be very careful. I'd try that first and see what happens.

[Cinder & Smoke]

Hi, Beth ~ Been there and done that ~

I was married to a horse wrangler for many years; we raised both horses and dogs in reasonable harmony. But it's a lot easier when, as Rachel and Angel point out, you can slowly introduce the two species, or they are born into the relationship and grow up respecting each other as siblings in the same family.

When I stopped being involved with the horses (she got the barn, I got the house), a new dog (Shadow, a beautiful Shepherd/Husky, Rainbow Bridge now) adopted me when she was 9 months old and had no "horse smarts". Within the first week she had learned how to navigate through the electric pasture fence, one leg at a time, tail with extreme caution, and bagan enjoying the dangerous game of chase and bark with the horses...

In Ohio a dog can be convicted of "worrying", chasing, or attacking a horse and either destroyed or ordered confined for life. A few hours of close order drills beside the pasture fence, with the cooperation of a few non-intimidated horses, convinced Shadow that the pasture was off-limits. The seriousness of the offense also forced me to administer a few *butt*smacks* during the training process for added emphasis! Thankfully she got the message and learned to be a good neighbor with the horse crowd.

Cinder arrived at the tender age of 6 months and also thought that scattering the horses with barking and snapping teeth was fun. Again, leash work along the fence and a few well earned *smacks* was enough to convince her that the pasture was not an extension of our yard. Cinder also had the experience of being chased back through the electrified fence - without the benifit of enough time to slowly pick her way over the "hot" wire - when a herd of 8 or so angry yearlings ganged up and reversed the order of who's chasing who one night! Lucky for her, the *screaming* she did was the result of getting completely tangled in the electric fence, not from being kicked. Since that evening she will sometimes "play" by running along the fence with a few of the horses, but she's quiet and stays on our side.

In your case, being the owner of both the dog and the horses, supervised desensitizing meetings can be held if the horse(s) won't become too stressed. Tie a horse and Patience far enough apart so that no one will be kicked or bitten, and try to work with Patience to accept the horse. Might help to wear ear plugs and give the horse a BIG flake of hay or bucket of grain . Treats to Patience for periods of quiet.

Sort of like what I did with new-dog Smokey - leashed to me or a table till he learned to stop chasing Boots, the Kat, around the house. Let us know how things progress.

[Dixieland Dancer]

I think Patience's is barking because there is an intruder on her turf. She needs to be socialized to the horses in a slow but purposeful manner.

As for the barking....
MaxnPetey's mom has a similar problem with her dogs barking. Refer to "A couple of problems with our pack - long post" under the dog behavior section. While the dogs are barking for different situations, they may be barking for the same reasons.

This is part of a post I made in that topic:

The solution is to teach controlled barking through reward training.

Reward training is especially useful at defusing such situations as a knock on the door, greeting strangers, etc. According to statistics reward training has at least an 85% success rate.

Basically train your dog to speak on cue. This gives you a measure of control over the barking, which is, after all a normal dog behavior. If you put a behavior problem on cue, it becomes an obedience response. It gives you the control over when, and to what extent, your dog barks.

Not only do you teach the speak command but you also need to teach the Shush command. Always treat the desired behavior never reward the unwanted. Never punish the dog for barking. The opposite of reward is not punishment - it's no reward. Be consistent. Have someone over that can help you with the behavior in the house. Gradually working to outside. It takes time to unlearn a behavior so be patient and you should have success before you know it.

You can adapt this to the horse situation too! There was more posted from other people too. You may want to read over some of that advice. Good Luck in your endevor! It can be done.

[lizbud]

Stenograsaurus, I'm glad you are getting
so much helpful advise!!I knew about Dakota
and Patience, but had not heard about your two Beautiful horses( Yankee & Rebel) until
I happened to visit your Pets Website last
week.Best of luck to you on this problem!!!

[carrie]

Introducing Patience to the horses in a very controlled way is ideal. But you do need to control this.
You are the pack leader and you MUST make it VERY clear to Patience that this is not acceptable.
Your lead and collar are your communication tools along with your voice. This is a very difficult situation for most owners as they are more used to thinking of their pets as furry people rather than domesticated wolves.
It is no good going for an introduction if you do not know that you can control the dog's reaction. More to the point the dog must believe that you are in control.

Before you introduce the animals you should reinforce this belief in Patience. Do not allow her outside unless she is on a lead with a check chain (a prong collar would be best with such a high prey drive (this is a prey response, not territorial)). This is the hard bit - as soon as she starts on the barking you have to give her a correction that she cannot ignore. Use your voice as well, loudly, and keep up hard correction - I mean HARD correction - as you say,"NO, LEAVE IT! NO! LEAVE IT!"
As soon as she takes even a small break to look at you ( don't go all mushy if she tries to get away from you - this is important and if it is not stopped you could end up with hurt horses, hurt dog or worse) you walk quickly backwards dragging her with you and in a very high happy voice say "Good girl, yay! Good girl, good girl." She will then go with you and you must praise her - life is fine and good and you love her but WATCH OUT if you don't listen to the pack leader when she says NO!
Walk back to where she started to bark and if she doesn't bark at this point make her sit and praise her like mad. Go a few steps closer...as soon as she starts to bark you go the full hog again.
Keep doing this until you can get to the fence and she is not barking.

If done strongly enough she will not bark after the first or second correction. If she carries on you should get a prong collar or raise the level of correction even more.
I can just see the heads shaking and the people queing up to tell me I am wrong to treat a dog this way. This dog is showing an ingrained response to a prey animal and needs quick and definite stimuli to tell it that the pack leader does not tolerate that response.

You have to be sure of yourself here - know that you are willing to go through with it before you start - you will have more problems with it than your dog. Ten too soft corrections will make the dog's body sensitivity lessen where one really hard one will teach the lesson, cause less stress and will make both of you feel more secure. Your dog needs direction and in a very strong way to make her understand what she is doing wrong and what is acceptable.

[lizbud]

Steno...
Carrie's advice sounds 'right on' with my
dogs obedience training instructor!!
I was pretty much a 'whimp'when it came to
the correction part of the training..One
kindly instructor took pity on me a walked
my dog Buddy around the circular course ,
enforcing a 'real correction" when he did'nt
obey the leash & voice command.Only took one
real correction(Bud's a smart boy) and when
she handed the leash back to me,Bud had
"Got It" and did much better afterward..

[RachelJ]

Carrie, my head is shaking up and down...sounds like an excellent strategy to use...and I think you are correct in the prey drive assessment as well.

[Stenograsaurus]

Thank you all for your responses. I appreciate each and every one of them.
Patience also barks at the neighbors when they are out back riding their four wheelers or motor bikes or whatever else they're riding. Patience has a nylon collar. She's attached to a chain that is attached to a 40 ft. cable. I have gone out with a choker chain and a leash and did a quick jerk on her every time she barked and then drug her in when I'd get nowhere with that. Like I said before, she's not the brightest crayon in the box. I don't know if she's not getting it or doesn't want to get it. I'll try to focus on the choker chain and leash and food reward and just stick to that exclusively for a longer period of time and see if that works. How long should I train her at one time? I know I have to do it daily. How many times a day?
The horse fence didn't have any juice on it until the other day. We figured we've give the horses a chance. I didn't want to zap them unless they needed it. Well, Rebel decided to live up to his name and kept getting out so we put electric up. The next time Patience gets loose and tries to get in with the horses, she'll be in for a surprise. It won't bother Dakota though. Our neighbors in the back has a horse with an electric fence and one time when Dakota got loose, he was literally laying on the fence. We figured it wasn't turned on. Boy were we surprised when we touched it!!

[ September 06, 2001: Message edited by: Stenograsaurus ]

[Dixieland Dancer]

If Patience is barking at four wheelers and other things beside the horses then I doubt it is a prey instinct kicking in. Again I would suggest the barking on command solution. You can work with Patience a few times a day for approximately 10 - 15 minutes at a time. Have atleast 3 training sessions a day if possible. You should start to see results in 4 to 5 days if your consistent.

The hardest part of this is getting the dog to bark when you want them too. I use the speak command and have a food lure present. I actually speak at them too until they catch on to what I am asking of them. The second they bark then they get the reward. Repetition is the key after they get the hang of it. Gradually you lose the lure.

Once they learn to speak on command then you can implement the SHUSH command. If they speak for the reward when presented with it (which most dogs do automatically) then give them a SHUSH and again as soon as they stop barking give the reward.

I have trained with choke chains and without. I prefer the without methods now since my dogs seem more willing to cooperate with me for a reward than for a punishment.

Just a friendly little side note: It all comes down to what you are comfortable with and what you think your dog will respond too. Both methods (choke or reward) can work. If you do use the choke method then make sure you implement it the correct way. Have the choke chain high up on the dogs neck (just slightly below the bottom of the ear) and keep it from sliding down to the lower part of the neck. There are pressure points higher up that get the message across faster to the dog. Lower in the neck and you can effect the throat. When you do give the correction make sure it is quick and forceful with the verbal command to reinforce it. Slow and lasting chokes are not effective.

Again though (I'm sorry to keep repeating this but...) I recommend the reward method. You can't go wrong giving the dog something they need to survive anyway.....FOOD! It works for even the most stubborn of dogs!

[carrie]

A dog with a high prey drive will certainly react to four wheelers and bikes - they are objects moving around fast and, even more provoking, in herds.
If you use the lead corrections hard enough you will be able to train until she stops barking. The problem is you are not correcting hard enough - try a prong collar.

[Stenograsaurus]

We have progress. When I come home from work, I go and greet the horses first. If Patience is in the back yard and doesn't bark, I tell her good girl, no bark. If she is barking, I say, enough bark. If she stops barking, I tell her good girl again. If she continues to bark, I ignore her until she does stop. Once she stops, I do the praise again. Although the barking has not ceased totally, there has been progress and we're getting there. I just have to have a little more patience and not expect results overnight.
I noticed when I would go over to her to correct her, she would sit down when she saw me coming. When I stepped on the porch, she would flop down on her side and cover her face with her paws. I realized that she was having flash backs. As many of you know, she was a stray. I am fairly sure she had been abused. I decided to not do any physical correction on her because I didn't want to put her through the flashbacks. As long as the praise works, I think I'll stick with that.
Again, thanks to everyone for the wonderful advise. It's nice to have somewhere to go where everyone is not only supportive, but also understands and wants to help.