Need advice for a friend

[Adge Gibbs]

My friend Sarah has two dogs, the older one is a black lab named Aurora and she's about 10-11 years old. Her younger one (recently adopted) is a chocolate lab named Chancellor.

She is having a very hard time establishing herself as the Alpha with him. She has corrected his behavior, made him eat after she and Aurora have eaten and won't allow him on the furniture but he's VERY stubborned and has snapped at her and doesn't listen to her when Sarah commands him to stop trying to hump Aurora. She rolled him the other day and he tried to bite her.

She wants it to work out, but she told me point blank that she doesn't trust him and if they can't work it out, he is going to have to go. She doesn't want to get rid of him and really needs help because all of the basic methods aren't working.

Is it possible that a dog will see itself as the alpha no matter what? She's getting desperate as she really wants to keep Chancellor, but will not keep a dog that gets aggressive with her. I couldn't offer much help as I didn't have these issues with Seven.

::edited for spelling::

[wolfsoul]

I would definatly try obedience school. It can teach you masny methods so that your dog knows who's boss.

Is Chancellor neutered? What kind of home did he come from before?

[carrie]

Things can be done to help this dog accept his position as less than Alpha but a very large rethink is needed. To change your whole outlook on an issue such as training and behaviour is a mammoth task and your friend needs to be realisitic when deciding if she is the woman for the job. It is very important for her to understand that this will be a long haul job and will take vast amounts of time and effort. She may have to behave in a way that goes against her instincts on how to deal with this dog and that is a lot tougher than it sounds.

First off, if nothing else, please urge her not to try and roll this animal ever again - this is a very dangerous thing to do unless you are 110% sure that your assesment of the animal and his own feeling of status are correct. The tiniest mistake and you are in big trouble - if the dog believes that he is your superior he will react as such. A physical challenge from a lower ranking animal deserves an aggressive and physical rebuke such as your friend got - she was, indeed, lucky. This dog is no where near able to accept her as leader and physically challenging him is an unsafe and unsound action. (For the record - I have never rolled a dog to gain dominance, it is far too dangerous!) Please impress this on her.

The second thing that I would advise is to stop treating the other dog as a higher ranking dog than the newcomer - there are two reasons for this. The first is that until the new dog sees her as the Alpha he won't care what she thinks the pack hierachy should be and her attempts will mean nothing to him. The second is that the dogs both need to understand that your friend is the Alpha - no questions, no challenges and no contest - it is then up to the dogs to work out where they stand with each other. I think the newcomer is a much more dominant dog than she is used to and he will easily dominate her bitch - this is fine and nothing to worry about. Once she has established herself as Alpha with both dogs it will cause tension and stress if she continues to treat the lower ranking animal as she is at the moment

Another problem she is facing is the breed. They are fantastic dogs and loads of fun if handled well but they are manic! To get the best out of a chocolate takes experience at the best of times - one major plus is that most of them are willing to do just about anything for a titbit.

For now I would advise seperating the dogs if they are left alone, keeping a lead on the newcomer when your friend is at home and using that - not a hand on his collar - to remove him from furniture etc. Do this without looking or talking to him. The idea is that you can be calm, quiet, not make a fuss and still have what you want happen - this is very impressive to a dog!! If this means sitting with him on a lead to prevent him getting up to mischief - then so be it. The key is to ignore him at all times (this can be straining in the extreme - I once had a chocolate jump up and down on the spot, right in front of me for nearly an hour and a half - not at all easy to pretend it isn't there and that you haven't even noticed it!) The dog will, at some point, give up trying to do what it is doing - it may well try climbing on to your friend, barking, staring straight at her, pulling on the lead and a host of other things. The point when the dog lies down in a relaxed way (not looking at your friend, but with his head down) is the point where your friend should start timing. If the dog gets up and tries again - go back to the begining. 5 minutes must pass before she acknowledges the dog in any way. A quiet "Good Boy", will be enough - this will become easier as time goes by but it is an excellent way of calming and dominating any dog and is the basic method behind everything I do. If you can crack this one - you have it made.

Sorry this is so long - we have only touched the surface and this is much harder than it sounds. If your friend decides that this is not the dog for her no one could blame her - it is possible to change things but it will take huge effort and time.
Please let me know what she decides to do - a very difficult decision. If I can help in any way please let me know

[clara4457]

Ohh Carrie - terrific advice there. Those were exactly the same things my behaviorist told me when I had her come evaluate my dogs. (They were not aggressive with me at any time, just each other) I just want to stress that the methods Carrie outlined absolutely work.

That being said, these types of problems do not magically disappear. They take constant vigilance. Even though in my house, we have learned to co-exist fairly well - it is because I have learned to read the dogs language and moods. I am constantly aware of any possible triggers. I feed them separately; I never ever give them treats unless they are separated. I never let them outside to play together unless I am watching them. I have to shut the cat in another room when I am not home (Penny wants to chase the cat, Leo wants to protect the cat). Even though I don't separate them all the time, if I feel one or the other is in a pissy mood; I will close them off in separate areas. (Baby Gates are my best friend).

I guess the point I am trying to make is it takes a great deal of commitment and work to solve these kinds of problems. I would strongly suggest your friend contact an animal behaviorist/trainer and get some personal guidance. I have to tell you it was the best $75 I ever spent. There are also a couple of booklets I would recommend by Patricia McConnell - "How To Be Leader Of The Pack...and Have Your Dogs Love You For It" and "Feeling Outnumbered? How To Manage and Enjoy Your Multi-Dog Household".

I also strongly second NO ALPHA ROLLING. Trying to do this with an aggressive dog is just asking for trouble.

[Adge Gibbs]

Carrie,
Thank you for the advice. I printed out this thread and will give it to her when we get together for dinner tonight.

Wolfsoul,
Chance was a rescue and does seem to have issues with men, but oddly enough, when I am at the other end of the leash, just the sound of my voice is enough to keep him in check when he starts acting up.

He would pause when I gave him a command, but he did it and would always look back at me to make sure I saw him do what I told him to. I believe he IS trainable, but as I told her last night, I shouldn't and CAN'T be the one to do this because she doesn't want him to see ME as the alpha.

There are times that he is so eager to please her that it's almost sad, but once he gets wound up, he doesn't stop. Last night he barked at her and took an aggressive stance. She raised her voice and he relented a little and finally sat down.

I feel for her because Aurora was like Seven... easily trainable and understood up front that I was the alpha. I don't think she expected this when she got him because she already had a lab and I guess expected the temperment to be the same.

clara4457, I will make sure she looks into it. She's desperate at this point because she doesn't want to be another owner who brought home a cute but problematic dog and just shipped it back to the kennel because it wasn't easy to deal with.

Thanks again everyone.

[stacwase]

I agree with everything that Carrie said, and I have a few more suggestions which I got from books and learned from people on Pet Talk. I've had to use some of them on occasion. Max has been grounded a time or two.

One is to feed every single morsel of food to him by hand, and make him do something for it. Like make him sit nicely while he eats each piece, one at a time, from her hand. She doesn't have to feed it all in one sitting - she can use it as treats throughout the day. That will do several things. First of all, it will show him that all good things come from her and make him really want to please her. It will establish that she's alpha. It will also help take care of any food dominance issues.

Another is to ground him until he learns to behave. Have her make him do at least 50 downs a day. She can use his kibble as reward, as well as affection etc. Tell her not to do anything at all that he likes without having him down for it. He wants to be petted? Down. He wants to go outside? Down. He wants to eat? Down. He wants the ball? You get the picture. When he submits and learns to behave she can let up, but he'll relapse and then she'll ground him again.

Please have her try these things, as well as the things everybody else suggested, and then tell us how they work out! You know - dominant dogs might be difficult to control at first, but once you get them under control they're just wonderful pets. I actually prefer the dominant dogs. They seem to me to be more intense and a lot more fun.

[Adge Gibbs]

Sarah wanted me to relay her thanks for all of the advice. I'll let you know how things work out for her and Chancellor.

Thanks again

[K9karen]

Welcome Back, Carrie! You GO girl!

[carrie]

I just wanted to add a few ideas about the food issue - purely my own take on it.

Using part of the dog's daily food ration as rewards for appropriate behaviour is a good way of ensuring a og that is motivated by food does not become overweight. I would be cautious about using the whole days ration in this way as it gives the dog a very mixed signal. On one hand you are controlling the food and he only gets it when behaving appropriatley but on the other hand a strong Alpha does not keep a constant supply of food coming no matter how the pack behaves. The dog will never have the sensation of being full and satisfied by a meal - very important to a dog - and this will reinforce the fact that the Alpha is not doing her job properly. It is natural for a dog to eat, feel full, then go through a satisfied period followed by a period of feeling hungry before eating again. This is the motivation to hunt and thus feed again. As opportunists they will also eat anything that comes along in between but the basic feeding behaviour is meal, rest , hunt, meal.
Hand feeding the meal is another issue that I feel uncomfortable with - the theory behind it seems plausible until you look at natural pack structure. Once the Alpha has eaten and is satisfied he/she leaves the rest of the pack to sort out their own meals and order of eating and pays no attention to who eats what and when they eat it. If the food source is large the Alpha allows others to feed at the same time but he/she always chooses which are the best bits of the meal for him/herself. This is a major and vital behaviour for all pack members. By hand feeding, the Alpha is showing an unnerving interest in what lower ranking individuals are eating. It also shows that the Alpha is unsure of his/her own judgement and needs to pick through the food to ensure that he/she really has got the best bits before letting lower ranking dogs eat. It is unfair and unnatural because once the Alpha has eaten he/she should go away and ignore those still eating.

The most effective feeding routine that I have ever used sticks to the pack rules rigidly and reinforces the Alpha's status in every aspect. When you are ready to prepare the dogs meal put his feeding bowl on the kitchen work top. Put a small side plate or soup bowl (human dish of some kind) next to the dog bowl. Put a small item of human food onto the plate (this may be a few grapes, a cracker - anything small) and prepare the dogs food in the dog bowl. Ignore the dog as you do this (no speaking, touching or looking at him). When the dogs food is ready, wash your hands then calmly eat the human food you have put on the plate, still ignoring the dog. Clear away the plate when you are finished - don't rush about it, take your time. Then pick up the dog's bowl turn to the dog and command a sit before putting the food down on the floor and allowing the dog to eat. Walk out of the room and stay away for 10 minutes ( bags of time for a Lab!!!). Then go and pick up the food bowl, do not leave it down even if the food is not finished.
This is asserting yourself as Alpha with no question - in the dog's eyes you have provided a meal but have ensured that you have eaten the best bits first (the human food the dog has seen you eating)- a very strong signal and the dog has no chance to challenge your status in this situation.
The other advantage of this is that your own meal times are freed up - there is no reason why a dog should associate a family meal with its own feeding time ( a lot of people say that they eat before they feed their dog thinking this is the way to show who is Alpha - many dogs will not connect humans eating at a table with their own food).

I hope this helps and at the least is another point of view.

[ParNone]

I love reading your posts, Carrie. Very interesting reading.

I initially tried the hand feeding when my Collie was a puppy,
but found I just didn't have the patience to keep that up.
So I'd have him sit for a couple of morsels, then just give him
the whole bowl, which then quickly dissolved into, just putting
the bowl down, forgetting to even make him sit.

I also found I don't have enough of a organized personality
to consistently eat something myself right before I put the food
bowl out. And then am also bad about not picking the bowl
back up after a sufficient time, if there's food still in the bowl.

What I do do and am very consistent about, is having all 3
of my dogs sit patiently and quietly, while I'm eating something
tasty and then giving them each a very small bite of what's
left. They don't get something everytime. Maybe 60% of the
time. Not sure if this is significant enough gesture to send the
message to them that I'm alpha. Hopefully it does. I've not had
any aggression problems with either of the three towards me or
other people, but the two Cairns are dog aggressive. I kind of
excuse that as a breed trait and not enough socialization to
other dogs as puppies, but maybe that's a sign that they don't
view me as completely in charge.

Par...

[carrie]

ParNone - thank you for your interest - canine behaviour is my passion and, as the oldies here will tell you, I can rattle on for hours!!
They will also tell you that I have my absoloute no go areas - dogs on human beds and smelling a dog's feet being only two of many!! LOL.
I am sorry to say that feeding dogs human food is one of these. What you are, in fact, doing is rewarding your dogs for begging. It is very polite begging, I grant you, but begging all the same. By feeding them a little of the "reward" only sometimes you are reinforcing the behaviour even faster than if you fed every time. This is a classic method to smarten up a response that is flagging - start with a reward every time and when the dog knows the behaviour you want (be it sit, come or beg) give the reward only every two three or four times. This makes the dog try even harder to give you what you want in order to earn the reward.
The truly fantastic thing about companion dogs and the people that own them is the variety of lifestyle options and combinations. What is acceptable to me may be the one thing that you can not tolerate in your own dog, what you think is ordinary every day dog stuff might be the thing that is the number one no-no for me - as long as you are happy and the dogs in your life are safe, well and mentally sound then there is no need to fret about it. The science behind animal behaviour and research into it is a fast moving, ever changing and multi faced world and the tiniest discovery can have far reaching possibilities throughout the animal kingdom. Thank goodness there will always be something for us to talk about!

[aly]

All of the advice Carrie and others gave is pretty much routine advice we give with every adoption at my shelter. It really does work .. especially along with other exercises.

I would recommend your friend has at least one session with a behaviorist. You can get great information on the internet, but to be truly helpful, problems should be diagnosed and treated in person. Be sure the behaviorist is qualified and uses positive reinforcement training methods.

In wolves and dogs, the alpha roll is used pretty much only when the animal intends to kill or fight with the animal it is rolling. Thats why it is such a huge threat and very dangerous to use.

[aly]

Originally posted by carrie

I am sorry to say that feeding dogs human food is one of these. What you are, in fact, doing is rewarding your dogs for begging. It is very polite begging, I grant you, but begging all the same. By feeding them a little of the "reward" only sometimes you are reinforcing the behaviour even faster than if you fed every time. This is a classic method to smarten up a response that is flagging - start with a reward every time and when the dog knows the behaviour you want (be it sit, come or beg) give the reward only every two three or four times. This makes the dog try even harder to give you what you want in order to earn the reward.

Par - You can relate this to Las Vegas. People go to the slot machines and win some money, then they sit there pulling and pulling those slots trying to win again.

Its one of the rules of learning for dogs:

A behavior that is randomly rewarded is likely to increase, and perhaps even become obsessive.



Just thought I'd throw that out there

[ParNone]

Thanks for the replies Carrie and Aly!

Ironically, last night in agility class we were discussing
this very topic, but I didn't make any connection to what
I'm doing in regards to periodically giving them part of
my food.

We use a lot of food luring to initially teach the obstacles,
but one of the guys was mentioning that after the
obstacle is learned, then you should start randomly
giving the food reward, for the exact reasons you've
both just given. The dog will work that much harder at
each obstacle trying to get that reward again.

I wondered though if the dog would then take that as a
sign that he was doing the obstacles incorrectly if he didn't
get the food reward and then start trying other things
in a desperate attempt to get the reward? My assumption
was you'd need to make sure they got lots of verbal praise,
as you took away the food reward, so they'd know they
were still doing things correctly, but noticed this guy didn't
really give his dog any food or verbal praise when they
finished a run. His dog does really good, but I have my
doubts about how well that would work for Oz.

Last night, we had a miscue between us on a tunnel that was
positioned next to an a-frame. He was suppose to go through
the tunnel, but he passed it and came to me. I've no doubt
a handling mistake on my part, but once that happened, and
he got no confirmation that he'd done right, he just went
through a whole sequence of behaviors seeing if he could
hit the right one, from trying to jump over the tunnel, to going
up the a-frame, to going in the wrong end of the tunnel, to
finally doing it correctly. I had tried to maneuver him back to
the tunnel entrance to give the command again, but he was
already too focused on going through his own lil' checklist.
I think I may have strayed off point here, but the inner workings
of the dog mind is just very intriguing. Like trying to solve a
puzzle to me.

Par...

[carrie]

The absolute trick to it is learning what the key motivation is for your dog - for some dogs it is physical praise, for others it may be a tennis ball, for others, especially in high energy activities such as agility and flyball the behaviour itself is the best reward in the dog's eyes. Food rewards, in my opinion, are best used to teach and reinforce behaviours but are not the best way to reward behaviour the dog has already learned well. Some dogs respond better to very quiet vocal praise than they do to physical praise - it is all about knowing the individual you are working with and how to get the best out of them.