Alpha Rolls

[Giselle]

So I recently witnessed a handler in my agility class alpha rolling his dog because she was barking out of excitement. Deeply concerned, I made a thread about it on another board. Half of the posters believed it was okay to alpha roll a dog. The other half vehemently opposed it.

Out of curiosity, I wanted to know what the general consensus is on this board.

[Glacier]

It's an outdated training method and a quick way to loose your nose,if done to the wrong dog! I don't like them. I think there are other safer, effective ways to let a dog know who's the boss. I wouldn't use a trainer who still used this type of method.

[cali]

I voted other. I am not all for them, but I DO use them in certain situations with certain dogs.

Rusty-I absolutly use the roll, if I am not harsh with him he runs wild, attacks other dogs for no reason, steals stuff, barks like crazy and doesnt listen. totally differnt dog since I got harsh, and rolled him rather aggressivly, he stopped randomly attaking my other dogs immediently when nothing else made him stop, and he no longer steals, rarly tries to bolt from the yard, listens better etc.. with him, the roll worked when nothing else did.

Electra-I have rolled her twice, when she tried humping me...I needed to react fast and it was all I could think up fast enugh. it worked in any case.

Blair-absoulty not under any circumstances, if you value your face.

with the rest, other methodes work fine.

[Seravieve]

I said other as well. I think in some situations, they work. Especially with dogs that you trust. Bunny acts up a lot.. like when my mom comes over.. she'll continually jump at her.. never stopping. So one day I got sick of it and pulled her down onto her side/back. Made her lay there for a couple minutes until she was calmed down. I certainly wouldnt do it with a dog that I know would physically challenge me. Bunny is a very submissive dog and usually follows my directions.. but certain situations call for this technique...

We've also used it when one of the dogs attacks another.. rolling the attacker on their back and sitting the attackee next to them.. Once again.. only with my dogs, who I trust and know.

So I vote "Yes, in certain situations."

[crow_noir]

I voted other. I don't care for it and think it is way over used by people that don't have enough experience with dogs. It is totally unnecessary with many dogs.

I would have had to been there, but i think the trainer in that situation was out of line.

I've used them myself in a few situations. They worked in those specific situations though.

In general though... no I don't like them and i do avoid using them and suggesting them.

[Giselle]

Oh, no no! It wasn't the trainer who alpha rolled the dog; it was the handler. Just wanted to clear that up. Interesting responses. Keep 'em coming!

[Glacier]

Oh, no no! It wasn't the trainer who alpha rolled the dog; it was the handler. Just wanted to clear that up. Interesting responses. Keep 'em coming!

I should have been more clear. I was just commenting that I wouldnt' use a trainer that did this technique, not that it was the trainer in this case. I have actually walked out of a class with a trainer who used negative reinforcement methods. I was trying to rehab Kayleigh, back before I had much experience with dogs in general and none with aggressive dogs. That trainer's methods would have killed Kayleigh. She needed firm boundaries; she did not need to be manhandled anymore!

[BC_MoM]

My flyball trainer thinks she's some kind of dog whisperer, and is totally into Milan's methods. The alpha roll worked for a dog that attacked Molly one night, and he never so much as looked in her direction ever again.

But I think these methods are extremely detrimental to a dog's mental health.

[BC_MoM]

Just read the first post. She alpha rolled because of barking out of excitement?!? GIVE ME THIS PERSONS PHONE NUMBER. What a.....

Molly barks almost all the time at flyball, so I've started redirecting her attention while we are waiting for our turn at it. I make sure I have lots of cookies and just make her sit, look at me, tell her good girl.... and it's starting to work.

Ugh. Alpha rolling for excitement is COMPLETELY unacceptable!!!!!!

[k9krazee]

I voted other as well. I used this on Jack a couple times when he went after another dog, because everything happened so fast and it was my first reaction. I don't make a habit of doing it though, and do see how it could be doing more harm than good.

I don't know if it's considered an alpha roll, but when Jack humps another dog I usually pull him off and make him lay down then push him on his side. I don't hold him but I make him stay like that for a couple minutes as a time out. I don't know what else to do, and nothing else seems to be working to get him to stop humping.

[Giselle]

BC_Mom, I agree. That's why I informed my trainer, and I told her that I'd prefer it if he didn't do these things in public. I can't control what he does at home, but hopefully we can enlighten him in class =/

Well, here's my take on alpha rolls. The thing is that I was always taught that the alpha rolls performed by wolves are not forceful in any way. I was taught that the dominant dog will place its arm over the subordinate and the lesser dog will willingly roll over to reveal its stomach. I see this with puppies a lot so it made sense. In fact, I was really curious and I decided to try it with Ivy . I got down on all fours and placed one arm over her back. She immediately flopped down belly up. Pretty amazing! My opinion is that alpha rolls have been disturbingly misused (no thanks to Cesar, either), and they've been morphed into some type of macho control mechanism. I can understand pinning a dog down to stop a fight because I am sometimes driven to that point, too. It's a gut reaction and, when mace is not on hand, it's sometimes the only option available to immediately stop a fight. However, to use it regularly as a training method is against my ethics.

ETA: However, I don't consider pinning a dog down to stop a fight as an alpha roll. I simply see it as a way of getting the dogs apart and away from each other if they're not wearing collars and/or it's unsafe to reach for the head area.

[crow_noir]

The only time i have ever seen a canine force another canine over was actually just a few months ago when we took Koli for her first socialization session. She went to attack (using the term loosely) the other dog for a second time and was being quite a pain. He pinned her in less than a second. (It looked more like a Karate move than an alpha roll, but it served its purpose.) He was quite dignified. They had a whole conversation in about three seconds (eyes/body language) and when she agreed she was done nipping him he let her up.

Other than that yeah... either a dog submisses on it's own rolling over or it doesn't. They have other ways of establishing dominance.

BC_Mom, I agree. That's why I informed my trainer, and I told her that I'd prefer it if he didn't do these things in public. I can't control what he does at home, but hopefully we can enlighten him in class =/

Well, here's my take on alpha rolls. The thing is that I was always taught that the alpha rolls performed by wolves are not forceful in any way. I was taught that the dominant dog will place its arm over the subordinate and the lesser dog will willingly roll over to reveal its stomach. I see this with puppies a lot so it made sense. In fact, I was really curious and I decided to try it with Ivy . I got down on all fours and placed one arm over her back. She immediately flopped down belly up. Pretty amazing! My opinion is that alpha rolls have been disturbingly misused (no thanks to Cesar, either), and they've been morphed into some type of macho control mechanism. I can understand pinning a dog down to stop a fight because I am sometimes driven to that point, too. It's a gut reaction and, when mace is not on hand, it's sometimes the only option available to immediately stop a fight. However, to use it regularly as a training method is against my ethics.

ETA: However, I don't consider pinning a dog down to stop a fight as an alpha roll. I simply see it as a way of getting the dogs apart and away from each other if they're not wearing collars and/or it's unsafe to reach for the head area.

[packofchi's]

I think Alpha rolls can be extremely beneficial in correcting an aggressive dog when done correctly. My pit/corgi mix (Buddy) likes to try to attack one of our other large dogs. All I have to do is look at him and he rolls over, even with the other dog standing there. The other dog, Fonzi gets hyper. I'd never think about rolling him for his hyper behavior. That just tells me he needs to go for a walk.

Though I would like to add that even rolling Buddy would prove dangerous by anyone else (my sister tried it and he growled at her until I gave him 'the look'). I have spent many hours with this dog, and do this because it is the most efficient and easy way to get him out of his aggression mode. Most of the time I use positive reinforcement to train my dogs. Buddy came with some past issues I needed to work through, and it helps me maintain control and safety in my pack.

[catnapper]

Let me tell you the experience that happened two weeks ago in class. I saw a doggy mom try to do it to Newfoundland. He started freaking out and she looked at me to show her what she was doing wrong. I politely explained that there were different training philosophies out there and this was one in which I personally did not agree with. I invited her to stay after class. We talked about aggression and dominance. She read that you "had" to enforce your authority over dogs or they'd walk all over you, and how she was afraid that since he's going to be so big that she better do it now while she can still control him. I explained that he's obviously submissive and the rolls were actually doing more harm that good.... that with each roll he was scaring him and making him lose his sense of security and trust, and that TRUST was far more important in becoming authority to him than sheer muscle. Anyway, I might not be explaining everything so well, but it made perfect sense at the time and she thanked me profusely for explaining it so well.

A week later she came to class with a HUGE smile on her face. She said that since she stopped trying to do alpha rolls that EVERYTHING changed. She swears she has a different dog. He trusts her again, He's relaxed and willing to let her do whatever she wants to him. He's eager to respond to her.

Thats only one incidence where people tried to use rolls that weren't successful.... and every time the outcome is the same when they stop the rolls and start positive training methods.

[crow_noir]

Let me tell you the experience that happened two weeks ago in class. I saw a doggy mom try to do it to Newfoundland. He started freaking out and she looked at me to show her what she was doing wrong. I politely explained that there were different training philosophies out there and this was one in which I personally did not agree with. I invited her to stay after class. We talked about aggression and dominance. She read that you "had" to enforce your authority over dogs or they'd walk all over you, and how she was afraid that since he's going to be so big that she better do it now while she can still control him. I explained that he's obviously submissive and the rolls were actually doing more harm that good.... that with each roll he was scaring him and making him lose his sense of security and trust, and that TRUST was far more important in becoming authority to him than sheer muscle. Anyway, I might not be explaining everything so well, but it made perfect sense at the time and she thanked me profusely for explaining it so well.

A week later she came to class with a HUGE smile on her face. She said that since she stopped trying to do alpha rolls that EVERYTHING changed. She swears she has a different dog. He trusts her again, He's relaxed and willing to let her do whatever she wants to him. He's eager to respond to her.

Thats only one incidence where people tried to use rolls that weren't successful.... and every time the outcome is the same when they stop the rolls and start positive training methods.