I Need Help with Skye

[areias]

Hey PTers. I really need help with Skye-it seems like everything is going against her.

She is getting beat up on a constant basis by the other dogs. It seems like we almost have to let her out seperate sometimes. It's usually when they are let outside...after they are done relieving themselves, and they start to "play" all of them will gang up on her, have her on the ground, and just beat her up. She constantly has cuts bumps and scratches on her. Nothing serious yet...but "yet" being the key word. Generally they don't draw blood, but you can see where one of the dogs has bit down pretty hard. Today Zoie and Casey jumped on her (I wasn't here...I'm usually not here when things like this happen) and it sounded like a huge dog fight, my neighbor came running. When I came home I checked her out and she did have some "bites" you can see where it's lumpy on the body..just nothing open or bleeding. I don't really know what to do...I worry that she's not happy...I worry about her getting hurt. Sometimes I feel like I should find her a new home, but then I worry about her going some place where she will just be passed on over and over again (she can get annoying, but I love her ). And then at the same time I feel selfish by keeping her and letting her get beat up. I'm in tears over this.

If anyone has any suggestions I would be more than happy to try anything. All the dogs already do NILIF-before and after they go outside, go on walks, eat, treats, etc. Usually this happens outside, but sometimes one of the dogs will jump on her inside. She does not fight back. Thank you for any suggestions.

[areias]

Bumping this up...it happened again this morning.

[borzoimom]

Okay do this- get a flexi lead, and she is on the lead- the lead connects the dog to you and helps you discipline the others. As soon as one starts to go for her, you correct that dog. Most dogs respect a lead.
Also letting her play with one other dog will help. Believe it or not- the fact is - they could be disciplining her for being so " shy"- .. When in my shepherds, one would go to jump a subdominant member- I flatten to the ground the aggressor, both dogs then are on forced down stay!
I have more but what breed are the dogs- and the ages please, and tell me who is more likely the instigator of this behavior.

[areias]

Skye is estimated a little over a year-a pointer mix. Zoie is probably the main instigator, she is around the same age and a bit smaller than Skye. Casey is 7 years old and a GSD...she will jump in after Zoie. And then Star is about a year old also, Lab mix, and she'll run around and bark and once in a while jump in. Romeo is 8 months old and sometimes will join in but he prefers not to. Boomer is 4 years old and sometimes not bother her, but occasionally he will. Sam is the oldest male and he dosen't join in. It seems the problem is with the females of the group.

[borzoimom]

You are right in that assumption, it does look like the bitches. How long as each been in your house- who came first to last..

[areias]

Sam and Casey were the first ones. We moved down here, and got Boomer. Then we got Zoie in January of last year. I moved out in the fall and took Zoie with me. I then got Romeo as a 'friend' for Zoie, and then Skye as a pity case at work (she wasnt supposed to be permanent..but..things happen). While I was moved out, my mom got Star. Then something happened, I moved back in with mom, and we combined households in...November or so. The behavior is getting increasingly worse. Romeo used to be the culprit before he was neutered, but now he dosen't really care. They are all fixed.

[Canis-Lupess]

I think there is a rank problem going on here, especially as it is only the bitches.

I think the issue is between Skye and Zoie and the others just join in simply because she starts it.
If Skye isn't spayed, I'd suggest getting her spayed to lower her status even more but leave Zoie as she is if she isn't already spayed and then actively treat Zoie as a higher ranking individual, do everything with her first etc.....
I doubt that Zoie would attack her if she didn't feel any sort of threat. Dogs don't do this for no reason. They only do this when they feel the other dog is a threat to their position etc...
Skye may just be more passive in her approach to climbing the pecking order but it doesn't mean she isn't pushing her luck and the way you treat the dogs could actually be making the problem worse and causing confusion between them.

Next time you witness one of these fights take place, try to remember every last little detail about their behaviour just prior to the aggressive outburst. Nothing is too small and subtle to be of importance so everything from little glances at each other, slight body movements, the lot. It might hold clues as to what the issue is exactly.

Ah, just an edit here. We posted at the same time so now I know they are all fixed.

As a rule in a multi-dog household, you need to treat them strictly according to rank. I think because they've all suddenly been lumped together and probably because you don't already have a rank routine in place and just treat them all as equals, they are confused as to who is higher ranking than the other. They haven't managed to establish a clear cut pecking order so thats your aim in order to restore peace amongst them.
You need to figure out who should be naturally where in the pecking order by carefully observing their behaviour and then use this info to decide who is where and treat them that way but you must ensure you are higher ranking than all of them at the same time.

[borzoimom]

Okay- you do have a confused dominance problem- who is boss and where in the rank they fit. You can get a behaviorist or trainer there to work with the dogs.
I see a mixed household- meaning the ones that were boss in each others house, then simpli-ized on the last newcomer. Being a complicated household I would get a local trainer or behaviorist. I thought these dogs had been seperated at one time, and was hoping it was only the dogs that were together in one home after a second group- but that is not the case- ..

[applesmom]

Seven dogs left alone and unsupervised constitutes a dog pack. It's never a good idea. There will always be occasional petty squabbles. The majority of the disagreements usually amount to nothing. But even the mildest of dogs will eventually have enough and fight back. In Skye's situation it's just a matter of time until she is seriously injured.

Perhaps you could try seperating your yard and only putting Skye in with other dogs that you're confident won't be picking her.

Good luck!

[pitc9]

Poor Skye... sounds like being picked on has made he feel insecure and has left her vulnerable. The others know this and have made her the omega of the pack. Does she try to keep away from the rest of the pack at all?
(like she knows she'll get picked on if she goes near them or will they just out of no where run to her and pick on her?)
Does she shy away from you at all?
Poor girl...

[DrKym]

Seven dogs left alone and unsupervised constitutes a dog pack. It's never a good idea. There will always be occasional petty squabbles. The majority of the disagreements usually amount to nothing. But even the mildest of dogs will eventually have enough and fight back. In Skye's situation it's just a matter of time until she is seriously injured.

Perhaps you could try seperating your yard and only putting Skye in with other dogs that you're confident won't be picking her.

Good luck!

Well said Applesmom,

If you dont mind may I add one thing? It is the alphas place to create tolerable levels of rank, and as alpha Arieas it also your responsibility to create a safe enviroment for your pack, as it stands right now the other bitches are joining in and siding with Zoie, which means when Skye does fight back, she will be fighting against all of them. They will rush in to take up for Zoie as they respect her position in the house.

We have had the very same issue several times, and no one method is correct as all dogs and all situations are unique. Some of ours responded to me lowering the top bitches dominance level by raising the "omega up some" some didn't and the omega was only allowed to play while being supervised by me. Some we simply couldn't allow to be around specific dogs, for their own saftey. As applesmom said, 7 dogs allowed to romp unsupervised by an alpha member is looking for an accident or worse.

Good Luck and keep us posted.

[borzoimom]

We had a long talk on the phone, and she has some things she is going to do.. Good luck- and keep us posted.

[applesmom]

Well said Applesmom,

If you dont mind may I add one thing? It is the alphas place to create tolerable levels of rank, and as alpha Arieas it also your responsibility to create a safe enviroment for your pack, as it stands right now the other bitches are joining in and siding with Zoie, which means when Skye does fight back, she will be fighting against all of them. They will rush in to take up for Zoie as they respect her position in the house.

We have had the very same issue several times, and no one method is correct as all dogs and all situations are unique. Some of ours responded to me lowering the top bitches dominance level by raising the "omega up some" some didn't and the omega was only allowed to play while being supervised by me. Some we simply couldn't allow to be around specific dogs, for their own saftey. As applesmom said, 7 dogs allowed to romp unsupervised by an alpha member is looking for an accident or worse.

Good Luck and keep us posted.

So true Dr. Goodnow, that's an important addition!

All dogs can possibly be trained to tolerate Skye in a one on one situation. But she cannot remain in that pack. Even with supervision the situation will most likely escalate until someone is severely injured. A $50.00 roll of fencing from Home Depot to keep them seperated could defuse the situation entirely!

[Glacier]

Perhaps you could try seperating your yard and only putting Skye in with other dogs that you're confident won't be picking her.

Good luck!

This is what we had to do with Pacer. In my main pack there are a dozen dogs. Balancing that group is a constant juggling act. Pacer was at one time part of that pack and they treated him exactly like your dogs are treating Skye. Pacer is timid and submissive to everyone. Everyone picked on him. That pack has a very clear alpha male dog(plus the human alphas). Eventually, despite trying every thing I could think of to change the behavior, the other dogs ended up almost killing Pacer. My vet actually asked if I wanted to bother with surgery or just euthanize him, that's how serious his injuries were.

Pacer now has his own pen and that's where he spends his time with another dog who would never pick on him(Chum usually). When I get home, Pacer goes wherever I go and the other dogs are fine with that.

In the end his vet bills cost me over 2 grand; the fencing to build Pacer his own pen, about 200 bucks; not having to worry about Pacer's life when I leave the yard....priceless!

[areias]

Thanks for the replies. Like Michelle said-we talked on the phone and I'm going to do some work on this. Seperating the yard may not be possible-Mom is a huge obstacle over here-I will discuss this with her. I also think she is part of the problem-she does not make the dogs do anything, is very passive-a lot of the bullying happens when I am not home and she is.

They are never totally unsupervised-Skye, Romeo, and Star are crated when we are not home. If they are out in the back, the slider door to the porch is usually opened and we can see everything going on through a big window. I do realize it only takes a second for something to happen, even with supervision. For now, most of the time, Skye goes outside seperately until the situation is fixed.

To answer some of the questions-all the dogs are fixed.
If they all go out together-here's one scenario...they will go pee or whatever...then start wandering around..then maybe zoie will go up to her and start mouthing and bumping into her like she's wanting to play. They might start wrestling and then another dog will get into it...and then another..and all of a sudden it has escalated from the wrestling into all dogs on one. And then there is times when she will just be coming to the door, and zoie wil jump on her and then the rest follows. There is a cement bench by the back door, and usually if she can get onto that she can avoid any confrontation, for whatever reason. A lot of times they won't let her get this far and keep her down on the ground.
She is submissive and not very confident. She does her submissive roll on her back and keeps getting picked on. We are working on building confidence but it takes time.

So thanks guys for the responses-I will keep you updated.