Flyball?? (rant)

[slleipnir]

Hmm ok this is probably going to be long and boring, so I don't blame you if you don't read it.

I don't know if anyone remembers or not, but a while ago..maybe last winter?? I had Zeke in flyball. I probably had him in for about a year or so. I helped them with events, tournys, set ups and tear downs (of the equipment) I do believe a lot of my time was invested into this club.

Zeke has a little problem. He is VERY friendly with other dogs. He LOVES to play. I have no problems with Zeke listening any other time. As soon as a dog is in the picture, he just goes nuts and doesn't listen to me. (if he's off leash) This isn't really good for flyball, especially since the other handlers and dogs want nothing of this. A lot of people on the team thought Zeke was aggressive! One lady litterally screamed when Zeke ran up to her dog...geez! They must have no idea what aggressive looks like, because Zeke ISN'T. His problem is he doesn't know when other dogs don't want to play...he will play with them anyway...and I guess people thing it's aggression.

Anyway. Two people actually hit Zeke for this without asking me. The first one was ok, I guess, because he was "protecting" his dog. I think he had Zeke's best interest when he did it. He just grabbed him and yelled at him...Although Zeke wouldn't run fast coming back after that. He was really frightened...The second time was completely uncalled for. Zeke went to see someones dog, and he WAS biting the dog, but I'm sure everyone here knows what play fighting is. He was NOT being aggressive. I grabbed Zeke and yelled NO at him. Then had him sit beside me. He was behaving good, when the dogs owner comes up and screams NO at Zeke and hits him with his tug rope. Zeke was like WTF did I do?!?! Because at this point he had already been corrected...this man just hit Zeke for no reason as far as he was concerned. The man didn't even come to me and say "listen, smarten up" he didn't even LOOK at me. He hit zeke and walked off without so much as a glance. THAT pissed me off. It's my fault for not training Zeke right, so he should yell at me, not Zeke.

At that point I was so upset I pulled Zeke off the matt. I just can't believe these people can't talk about anything. Later on everyone else said No he didn't hit Zeke..he just pushed him gentle...yeah, whatever. I know what I saw. If I wasn't so upset I would have told him off. I was in shock I guess. Anyway they emailed me saying I was always looking for people to train Zeke, I'm not loud enough, I don't get to Zeke quick enough, I don't punish him enough, etc...I'm thinking why the heck wouldn't you tell me this before?? So I could fix it. I had no idea! I thought I was doing my best. I don't like to hit my dog, so I'm sorry if I'm not correcting him right. And I'm sorry that asking questions about training means "train my dog" urg....

Anyway...getting to the point.

I'm still very frustrated with them. I want to re-join just to prove to them that WE CAN do this, and that Zeke isn't aggressive, and that I KNOW I can train him to leave other dogs alone. He improved SO much the year I had him there. He would slip every now and then if there was a dog he wanted to go see.

I know I should want to join just to make a point...but these people are miserable. I guess I don't like to lose...and I invested so much time with that club for nothing. Not even a thanks for helping. I can't help but get worked up just thinking about it...I figure if I go back I can put it to rest.

What do you think?

Also I'm going to take Zeke back to obedience classes and see if she can help me with his problem...I think if he got a long run everyday he would improve, but unfortunatly I don't always have time to take him somewhere he can run offleash.

[BC_MoM]

When a dog runs off course, no one is supposed to MOVE (except the handler) or make eye contact with the dog.

Your trainer is then supposed to go after the dog, stomping her feet on the ground to make the dog move away, while the owner calls the dog or runs around to get it's attention back to the handler.

YOU are supposed to be the fun thing. The other dogs, people and the trainer are not.

You don't punish him - because, you have to be the fun thing!!

I would try finding another team, these people sound like they know nothing.

[slleipnir]

They are VERY competitive. I don't think they wanted to help me train him. I know nothing of the sport so I obviously need guidence. My dad calls them elitest snobs..they see their own perfect world and nothing else.

The only other team on the island is like an hour or more away.

[BC_MoM]

Yeah, they definitely sound like a problem. Is there anyone near you who goes to the other club? Maybe you could carpool and offer some bucks for gas.

[agilityk9trainer]

I do agree that the club handled the whole thing poorly. That being said...

You have to understand that in the competitive dog world, it is considered HIGHLY RUDE for your dog to go up to another dog to sniff or say hi or want to play, even on-lead. If this happens, you are expected to act very upset and apologize.

In your case, your dog is not trained enough to be attempting flyball yet. You must have 100 percent (yes, I said 100 percent) reliable recall. If you don't, you are only waiting for a dogfight to happen. Dog people understand dogs. Many dogs are not aggressive, but they don't like other dog's in their face. This is rude in the dog kingdom as well as in the human one. So, if your dog goes up to play with another dog and gets into it's space and the other dog reacts and a dog fight ensues, the people of the dog world will blame you - NOT the other dog. The other dog has a right to it's space. It's your responsiblity to have full control of your dog on and off leash.

If you were in my agility school, you wouldn't be competing yet. I wouldn't have let you move into the classes where you would finish your skills for competition. A reliable recall is a must for any off-lead competition.

So, yes, absolutely go back to your obedience instructor. Work off lead. You don't have to go everyday somewhere to work off-lead, but get there several times a week. Focus on this. Make sure to heavily proof the behavior (your trainer can tell you what that means). Then, when you've gotten that 100 percent reliable recall no matter what's going on, rejoin the flyball team and show them what you're made of!

Good luck.

[CathyBogart]

Honestly, I would have been annoyed if my dog was working and another dog came up and started distracting him. What if the next dog he barges up to isn't as friendly as he is? I can't believe how many people let their friendly dogs barge up to my dog-walking client's aggressive but very reserved dog, then act like it was MY fault when she snaps at their dog.

I don't think the club handled it as well as they could have, but I do think their point was valid.

[applesmom]

There's no doubt that the situation could have been handled better. However this often happens when enthusiasm takes over before a dog is truly ready.

Put yourself in their place and imagine how you would feel if you finally had Zeke trained not to try to play with other dogs and then someone else's dog did the same thing to Zeke. It can set them back months in training.

It's a good idea to go back to your obedience classes and stay with them until Zeke is completely under control.

It's just a small setback. Next time will be better.

[Canis-Lupess]

As an owner of two Border Collies who don't like other dogs coming up to them, I know I get very annoyed when other owners allow their dogs to approach mine and if something bad happens, they blame me like it's my fault because my dogs don't want to play with theirs. In the end, they should control their dogs because mine aren't interested in going up to other peoples and stay away.
If I see a dog running up and I get hold of Jess's collar because she's the most aggressive towards other dogs, the other owners seem to automatically think that I believe their dog is going to attack mine. It never seems to occur to them that mine will probably go for theirs and they say something stupid like: "He's ok love, he just wants to play", and I'm so tired of it now that I usually respond by telling them that mine DON'T want to play. Too many people just don't seem to get it. Obviously, I don't want our Jess to lay into somebody elses dog so these close shaves do frighten me and some people might mistake it for me believing the other dog is aggressive when it is not.
BTW, both my dogs have been attacked by other dogs, especially Jess, thats why they don't like them. They aren't just bad tempered by choice.

I used to do agility and flyball at a club with mine and I remember a guy with a GSD which was quite aggressive towards other dogs. He kept it on the lead but when it went through the tunnel or the tyre jump, he would have to let go of the lead. One time, it managed to evade him when it came out of the other end of the tunnel, it ran straight up to our Mist as I was taking her around the next course to have a go at her but Mist being Mist span round and nipped it's nose like a flash of lightening and then she stood her ground with teeth showing and staring right at the GSD and letting him know she meant business. Her sudden pushiness made him back off and the owner got there by that time to get hold of him. The GSD also used to snarl and growl at our Jess when we were waiting in the queue with them on leads to go around the courses. Jess would snarl back of course.

In the end, no matter how friendly a dog might be, other dogs might not want to be approached and react aggressively if they are. I know that Border collie bitches are often very much like this and as Borders often dominate the agility and flyball scene, I bet there was a lot of them around. No other breed is fast enough for them in agility and flyball so they do tend to dominate.

You need to concentrate on making yourself much more interesting and fun than anyone else and their dogs. Use a favourite toy and destract your dog from others as practise and reward him simply for keeping his attention on you. If you are more interesting than them, your dog will stay with you and will lose interest in wanting to go and play with other dogs.

I don't agree with another owner coming up and smacking your dog though. Maybe having a word with you about making sure the dog was properly taught not to run up to others but not smack the dog. I think they might be a bit clueless in some aspects. As for not punishing him enough, thats plain stupid. Dogs don't learn through punishment, they learn through positive reinforcement. Firmness, yes, but shouting at him and hitting him...well, that doesn't create a trusting relationship between you and thats something you need in order to work as a team.

Take AgilityK9trainers advice and get your recall 100% spot on and then go and get back to it but do it for you and your dog. Don't waste your time trying to impress them.

[agilityk9trainer]

I've come up with a new thing to say when people are rude and allow their dog to come up to mine and sniff,. I talk to my dog (in a happy tone so my dog doesn't think he's getting scolded), "Oh, you knowi it's horribly rude to go up and sniff other dogs, Aslan. You know that's very rude." I've gotten across to the other owner that it's rude to let their dog come up and sniff other dogs, and yet my dog has no idea I've just "scolded" him. Bascially, what I've done is scold the other owner!

[slleipnir]

Honestly, I would have been annoyed if my dog was working and another dog came up and started distracting him. What if the next dog he barges up to isn't as friendly as he is? I can't believe how many people let their friendly dogs barge up to my dog-walking client's aggressive but very reserved dog, then act like it was MY fault when she snaps at their dog.

I don't think the club handled it as well as they could have, but I do think their point was valid.

No I completely understand that, but he had no right to hit my dog when he was sitting there nicely. If he had grabbed him when he was in the dogs face, I could get that....I'm not annoyed for that reason, I'm annoyed that he hit my dog and didnt come to my face. I know Zeke behaves poorly sometimes, and so do they. They KNOW he is still in training and they told me they would only put him up with dogs who wouldn't mind, and owners who wouldn't mind....It's not like they were like oh we had no idea Zeke is like this. So don't think this is all my fault

[slleipnir]

I posted this to feel better but I feel worse now. I don't know why I bother. I would delete the post but I know that would annoy people..

People are ignorant for letting there dogs come up and sniff, it's not always rude. Some people just don't know any better. I always ask if my dog can come up and sniff or play, as I do have an aggessive dog, and I don't like it when peopple do that to me.

I wish people would stop saying I'm rude, and Zeke rude. Under those circumstances, I don't think it was. They all have been working with me since I took classes. They know what he is like and he does go to the other dogs. I'm still in training myself, and they didn't help me very much so I'm sorry I'm, not born with flyball knowledge and amazing dog contol abilities. They should NOT have let him run with other dogs if he's not ready. I know you'll say stop blaming them, it's your fault...but why must you all critize me when you don't know the whole story? I'm extremely sensitve about this because of how mean they were to me. You have no idea. I tried my best with Zeke. I figured they put dogs on the matt who wouldn't be upset if he crossed. I was exhasted after class because I had to be fun and energenic for him so he wouldn't lose focus.

[slleipnir]

Ok. I've calmed down a little.

This was ment to be a vent from me. These people have really hurt me. They were extremely rude to me, and I never got so much as a thank you for helping us. The club is poorly run, in my opinion, and I didn't post this to be about Zeke. I posted it because I'm still hurting.

If you have any more to say regarding Zeke and how I screwed everything up, please PM me or keep it to youself, as that isn't really the point I was trying to make.

I know I'm a very emotional person, and I struggle with depression and anxiety. I get upset over the stupiest things, but I can't control it sometimes. I was extremely depressed over this whole flyball thing for a long time. I really don't want to go there. I KNOW Zeke needs work, I KNOW he was rude, and I KNOW it's annoying. They told me this, for some reason AFTER the fact instead of when I was there so I could fix it. I never asked to be lectured on how badly he is. He is an excellent dog, with one little problem I WILL resolve. I don't REALLY want to re-join flyball, I was only upset thinking back on it. I want to prove he can do it, cause it annoys me when people bad mouth him...He is not a bad dog, and he is not aggessive. People seem to think that how he looks he is automatically a bad dog. People will stay away from him even if I'm walking him, and it's so irratating. He is a very soft, sweet dog who wouldn't hurt a fly.

So please, stop telling me about how he acts. I know it, and you telling me all the bad stuff about me and him is only going to upset me. I'm sorry to be so sensitive, but sometimes people just want to talk and not be lectured.

[TamanduaGirl]

play agression is still agression and not okay and will eventualy spark a fight.

I was walking my dogs once when a big rottie came running up and and wasn't able to get mine up in time and he picked Hyzzie up in his mouth. she screamed bloody murder but wasn't hurt once he put her down just drooled on. He still kept coming for her! But he "just wanted to play" He really did but that doesn't make it okay.

alternate is little dogs bullying big dogs those owners to will usualy claim fluffy just wants to play then blame the big dog if theirs a fight even though the big dog was just fed up and saying enough.

Quasi used to be okay with big dogs even shared his obedience class with an English mastiff but he Saw that happen to his sister and he was attacked by a collie, and had many other big dog incidents so he hates all big dogs now. so I get that too when I pull my dogs back when there's a big dog. "He's not egressive" "He doesn't bite" (I have honestly come back sometimes "But mine do") ect. but mine are agressive/defensive with big dogs so please keep them away.

My old dog goldie was attacked by a lab once. I couldn't get that dog off and finaly resorted to a slap to it's back. I suppose I should have just kicked it because it looked like the big dog was killing her but I guess I'm just a big wimp. The owner finaly came over and got his dog off her. That one was being serious for sure but I've no idea what sparked it off.

There was absolutely zero reason to go and hit someone's dog after the fact though. that part was wrong.

I've had to many incidents to count, honestly, with dogs after mine. And thankfully the majority have been just agressive play except collies(no offense it's just true so far) every single one has wanted to kill Quasi! Any way it's no more exceptable in a sports club than on the street or at the dog park. I don't understand why the club would allow untrained or partly trained dogs in the club. Untrained in fly ball sure but a dog has to have at least basic obedience down pat to participate in clubs or even go to an off leash dog park (IMO)

I suppose that's why no one said anything though since they were told the club wont put up with anyone complaining about untrained dogs, that certainly leaves them no outlet except maybe to quit.

[bckrazy]

play agression is still agression and not okay and will eventualy spark a fight.

My two dogs "play fight" with their mouths & paw at each other ALL the time. It has taught my puppy awesome bite inhibition, & Gonzo has awesome bite inhibition as well. I think it's perfectly ok, actually I'm glad they play rough! It's healthy & normal for well-socialized dogs. They've never hurt each other, even by accident.

[bckrazy]

Honestly, I don't have "thick skin" either, Audrey. I'm very sensitive and I always think of other people's feelings... and it sucks when they completely disregard mine.

To me, dog sports are for fun, and when people stop making it fun and instead make it their own sick/wierd/obsessive way of making themselves feel like the best or living vicariously through their dogs, it ruins the fun for everyone. I don't feel it's fair to expect me OR you to just ignore and put up with rude, inconsiderate, self-righteous A-hats... what's important is how you feel about Flyball, because Zeke will feed off of your energy. If it stresses you out this much, IMHO, I would look into other dog sports that will make both you and Zeke happy. There are tons out there! Frisbee, Agility, Tracking, Obedience, Rally-O, etc.