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Thread: Mink or Pine Marten?

  1. #31
    I never said you were a cold hearted person or anything remotely like that. As far as seeing animals, I have seen many animals in the wild. Our whole backyard is that, wilderness.

    Deer come to our doorstep! Yes I have seen wild bear, otter, coyote, wolves, etc in the wild. Playing and running free.

    I have came too close to a bear once, luckily he only wanted our monkey chow and not me! I do believe you respect animals and I didn't imply otherwise. It just sounded weird that you say these animals belong in the wild but then you would shoot one and hang it on your wall....
    Fuzzies for Furries
    Northwest Opossum Society
    Zoology Major
    2 Virginia Opossums, 6 cats, 4 bearded dragons, 1 iguana, 1 red foot tortoise, 1 tripod chihuahua, 5 mice, dubia and hissing cockroaches as well as other misc animals that wander in and out of my home.

  2. #32
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    Originally posted by luckies4me
    Not every breeder is bad. Are you then condoning very breeder out there?
    Basically any "breeder" that sells mtn. lions, bears, porcupines, etc on the INTERNET! I mean come on, I have no clue how you can not see any problem with that, especially being someone with a heart for rescue.

    If you don't, where do your rescue animals come from? People finding porcupines out in the wild, taking them home as pets and them kicking them out because they got cut on its needles???

    I know these animals are beautiful and intriging, but there is a reason they are called "wild" animals. They don't deserve to be caged or made to be anywhere around humans.

    You said something about all animals starting out somewhere. Is this mink, and eventually a serval an insight into what you plan to do? Making them more domesticated so everyone can have their very own serval? Is that what these breeders are doing this for? So we can all have a brown bear in our back yards? That is insane...

    BTW...Are there any laws that have to be upheld to have an exotic rescue??

    ...RIP, our sweet Gini...

  3. #33
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    I would NEVER CONDONE a breeder....I would CONDEMN many of them, however. You have no right to breed these animals, unless you have a degree in animal husbandry or some related field and the breeding is being done in a zoo that is working to preserve a species. I do NOT believe the average citizen has a right to do this. It is WRONG WRONG WRONG. Somehow I missed somewhere the connection of you rescuing these exotics to buying babies on the net (or anywhere else for that matter). Rescue should be for injured animals or animals that, for one reason or another, cannot be returned to the wild. Why don't you just concentrate on your child and Mystic? I appreciate the fact that you are trying to educate young people about these animals, but can't you do it as a volunteer at the zoo and go to schools from there? Just asking.


    Don't buy while shelter dogs die!!

  4. #34
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    Personally, i stand behind you all the way, luckies, i think you are doing an outstanding job on your site and teaching the public about wild animals is great!! For when i was little my school took a trip to the Prarie Winds Animal center, and we went out on a farm and looked at all the chincilla's, ferrets, snakes, rare and not so rare critters, and even a baby tiger that they were raising, to be future realesed in the wild, because it had lost its mother im sad to say, the look in the eyes my freinds, and peers, was of fasination, excitment, wonder, and RESPECT. After that day i realized my true love for all animals and am happy to see that others are out there doing the same thing.

  5. #35
    Just one clarification here - my daughter and husband are not "trophy" hunters. They do not hunt for the sole purpose of putting a head on a wall. (In fact, my husband has been hunting for over 30 years, and last year was the first time he had a mount done.) They hunt because they enjoy the taste of duck, goose, and venison, and the enjoyment of being outdoors. A carnivore is a carnivore, whether you eat grocery store meat or wild meat, so "hunting" in and of itself does not constitute animal hatred or a wish to see all animals in captivity. My daughter and husband would not want to see any of the animals they hunt "domesticated", would never hunt at a game farm, where the animals are contained within boundaries and the kill is almost guaranteed, because they respect that game animals should live in the wild. Wouldn't it be nice if all the beef we ate came from cattle that were allowed to graze and roam freely right up until the bitter end? We had this discussion before on another thread where taxidermy was being condemned as barbaric. Once again, I must reiterate, if you eat animal flesh, you cannot judge hunters, and you can't make a connection between hunting and the wish to domesticate/cage/"own" wild animals. I know you said you didn't imply that about my daughter, but you did raise the question.

    I also am confused as to how a "rescue" operation comes about by purchasing animals. At the start of this thread, you repeatedly said that you were purchasing a "pet". Then, it became an "ambassador", and finally, the "rescue" slant was put on it when you weren't getting too much approval for your choice. The Humane Society doesn't have to go out and purchase animals to keep it's shelters full - I would think you would rather leave space open for animals that are truly in need of rescue than continue to collect exotics. The money you spend feeding your "ambassador" could be spent on an actual rescue animal. I don't think you could teach anything to kids by exhibiting a purchased animal, other than how easy it is buy an exotic animal on the Internet. Why not exhibit a rescued animal instead, to teach the kids about responsible animal ownership and treatment?

    And Twisterdog, you hit the nail on the head exactly.
    The legend says that Mohammed adored cats. When one of them was sleeping on his sleeve and he had to go out, Mohammed supposedly cut off the sleeve so as not to disturb his pet.

    A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast - Proverbs 12:10

    How we behave toward cats here below determines our status in heaven. - Robert A. Heinlein

    What greater gift than the love of a cat? ~ Charles Dickens

    There is, incidently, no way of talking about cats that enables one to come off as a sane person. - Dan Greenberg

    If purring could be encapsulated, it'd be the most powerful anti-depressant on the market. ~Alexis F. Hope

  6. #36
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    Luckies ...

    I think we're all a little confused here. In your first post you said, " I will be getting a new pet this spring," then later on in the thread, after a few people questioned it, you said, "This animal is not going to be a "pet"."

    You told me, "I own an exotic animal rescue, this is what the animal will be for", and then later told me, "No this animal is not a rescue."

    You also stated, "Unfortunately exotic pets are all too easy to get ahold of," and then later you said, "It is becomming very hard now a days for just anyone to aquire an extic pet. Laws are getting stricter etc." The latter comment is just not true, except in a very few states. Exotic animals are being bred and sold and exploited at a rate never before seen in the country right now. Every humane society and shelter and animals rights organization is very aware of this. There are actually more tigers in private captivity (most of them in tiny cages, some in truck stop parking lots, etc.) than exist in the wild.

    The main problem I have with this whole thing is that the general public is - rightfully so - very confused about what constitutes a "rescue". If one is not directly involved in the animal fancy, one really has no clue. This is 90% of the general population. A rescue is a person or an organization that saves unwanted animals from death or a horrible life, provides them veterinary care, etc. and places them in a screened home. A rescue never buys animals, and a rescue most certainly does not ever buy animals from breeders with questionable breeding practices. If a rescue supports a breeder with unethical practices, or buys animals from a mill, the public has no idea what the difference is between a rescue, a mill, a back yard breeder, a shelter, etc. Rescues who don't hold themselves to the highest ethical standards hurt all rescues.

    I rescue dogs. As such, my nemesis is the back-yard breeders and puppy mills of the world. They churn out unaltered animals to anyone with the cash. They are the source of the dogs I have to pull from animal control on their last day of life, the puppies that someone finds in a box beside the road, frozen to death, the dogs that live their whole lives chained up in the yard. If there were no back-yard-breeders or puppy mills, there would be no problem in the dog fancy! Only reputable breeders would breed a limited number of dogs, and they would all be pre-sold to screened homes - as it should be. I would cut off my arm before I would put a single penny into the bank accounts of those morally-bankrupt scumbags. I would never buy a puppy from them!! I agree with NoahsMommy - as an exotic rescue, you should despise companies like this one, and be doing everything in your power to get them shut down ... not buying animals from them!!!

    Also, there's a couple more things I need to point out:

    You said, "My toroise for instance is an engangered species. I hope to get a female next summer and start my breeding program." I'm don't know what kind of tortoise you have, but many, many species of turtles and tortoises are endangered today because of the exotic pet trade. The pet trade did not 'save' these animals, it almost destroyed them, by removing so many young animals from the wild for pets that there were not enough left to produce viable future populations. Yes, I have done research on this.

    You also said, "We wouldn't have rats if they weren't eventually domesticated. You can say that about any pet....All animals started out somewhere. All pets were once wild and domesticated at some point. Not all should be but well many are. Our cats, dogs etc." To me, this is the main faulty-logic argument of exotic breeders. Yes, at some point in the distant, distant past ... some pre-Homo Erectus hominid did indeed probably steal a wolf puppy from a den, thereby beginning the domestication of modern dogs. More likely, though, those primitive wolves began to hang around the Neanderthal fires, for the scraps of kills. They were allowed to stay, because they served as alarms, with their keener ears and noses. The relationship probably developed as a mutually beneficial, symbiotic one. This is a far cry from trying to justify to modern exotic pet trade. We have enough domestic animals, animals that have been domesticated for eons ... we don't need any new ones!

    I also don't agree with this, necessarily "I like to use animals that are bottle raised or handled from a very young age. Most rescues have been so neglected they are afraid of humans. Not much use for educating the public." Why not? Are you not trying to educate the public as to the horrible things that happen to wild animals when they are kept as "pets" by people who don't have a clue how to care for them? So, why wouldn't a scared, formerly abused mink serve that purpose as well, or better, than a very tame baby that you handfed? Seems to me that if people see how cute, furry, tame and sweet this mink is ... they are not going to be listening to your talk about how abused and miserable mink are in captivity ... they are going to be thinking, "Wow, cool, I'm gonna get me one of them little critters!"

    Also, BTW, I did a quick seach on Google.com for "mink rescue" ... and found over twenty pages of results. I didn't research any of the sites, because I'm not wanting a mink, but there are a lot of places the rescue mink and some of them looked very good at quick glance!

    I'm sorry to seem like I'm really bashing you, luckies ... but this is a big sore spot for me. Either one is a rescue, or one is not. If one is, one has no use for unethical breeders. One certainly does not support them monetarily.
    "We give dogs the time we can spare, the space we can spare and the love we can spare. And in return, dogs give us their all. It's the best deal man has ever made" - M. Facklam

    "We are raised to honor all the wrong explorers and discoverers - thieves planting flags, murderers carrying crosses. Let us at last praise the colonizers of dreams."- P.S. Beagle

    "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king." - J.R.R. Tolkien

  7. #37
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    i just think alot of things are just being misunderstanding going on here, i think words are getting twisted around and changed on us, twister, yes two different things may have been said, but on the message board, i left to come here i was missunderstood the post went to my cruel and cold hearted nieghbors to how cruel i was for putting my dog on a chain for a few hours so i could fix the fence, but could i leave him running around loose to get hit by a car! I DONT THINK SO!, but they wouldnt listen to what i had to say, they just turned my words against me, and i figgerd that if they wouldnt listen to what i was saying i would leave and i did.


    **and hunting is not a bad thing, as long as ur motives are honarable, humans have been hunting since the dawn of time, no i dont agree with doing it to hang a head on ur wall but, My dad hunts for the meat, so HEY mabey some of you should think of the staving animals we would have due to over population if there wasnt somthing to control the numbers, but ill leave the rest for you to decide its your opinion

    ******to keep to the original question i think a mink.

  8. #38
    First yes I said he would be a pet, which I don't really know what else you would call him if I will be taking care of this critter, loving feding him etc. But well, I wouldn't actually consider a mink a pet. I never said he was a rescue, I said I have a rescue. Big difference. This animal will be used in educational outings, to educate the public about fur farms.

    Mink do not show up in rescue, that's just the way it is. They are not considered exotics so exotic rescues don't take them. Since they are fur bearing creatures they are usually euthanized or let go into the wild, which is an awful thing both for the surrounding ecosystem and the mink, who has no idea how to survive in the wild anyway.


    I do not agree with tigers, bears, etc. being bred in captivity for pets. There are people out there who do it for conservations for zoos etc so that certain animals will be around in the future. As far as me breeding servals I have knowledge in animal husbandry, veterinary medicine etc. as anyone who plans to do this needs to. I have always worked with animals. A far as me wanting to breed servals they are not being bred as pets in no way. They are being bred for conservation of the species. To sell to zoos, other breeders for conservation etc. ALthough some people do own them as pets. You are entitled to your opionion, and me mine.

    Yes there are MANY laws/licensing needed to breed any exotic or endangered animal. If you read I stated first off you would need a USDA license for anyone who seels/breeds/gives away an exotic pet. For buig game mammals you need a holding and propagating license, for endangered or threatened species you need a CITES permit. There are VERY strict requirements that need to be met but all of the people who issure these licenses. You need to feed the right food, have spacious enclosures, and they come inspect your facility BEFORE they issue the license. You have to meet all aspects of the Animal Welfare Act.


    As for my tortoise I have a California Desert Tortoise , yes heis endagered and not because of the pet trade. It is illegal to take them from the wild, let them back into the wild after they have been in captivity etc. If I were to breed him, which I am, it is for conservation and all babies become the property of the state and go to a facility where they will be prepped for release back into the wild after several years. These animals are dying in the wild, this is the only way to keep them here on this earth. By studying them, helping to find a cure for their respiratory illness etc. and to prep them for release back into the wild by a qalified biologist and veterinarian who watches their progress for several years. These animals are not endangered because of the pet trade (which it is illegal for them to do that anyway!) they are illegal because of a widespread upper respiratory illness. Also many are drowning in floods while in hybernation. Before you comment on a particular species please do your research.

    I own exptic pets and I purchase exotics, however I still do rescue. I know what rescue is, I own one. Don't come here and tell me about my ethics because I know what they are and am bound to them with my heart and soul! Myhedgehog came from a breeder who I know who has very high requirements and most babies are reserved before being bred, which any responsible breeder makes sure to have at least 5 or more (depending on species) reserved before the breeding takes place.

    A LOT of my animals were rescues. Like I said, you have your opinion and I have mine and you have heard it. Now stop with the finger pointing and get over it.
    Fuzzies for Furries
    Northwest Opossum Society
    Zoology Major
    2 Virginia Opossums, 6 cats, 4 bearded dragons, 1 iguana, 1 red foot tortoise, 1 tripod chihuahua, 5 mice, dubia and hissing cockroaches as well as other misc animals that wander in and out of my home.

  9. #39
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    Mink do not show up in rescue, that's just the way it is.
    Oh, really? Hmmm ..... well, here you go - a partial list of the first page only out of twenty-plus pages of MINK RESCUE (most also rescue ferrets) sites I found today:

    http://www.animalrescuers.co.uk/ferretrescue/
    http://www.veggies.org.uk/acd/europe...ue/countyo.htm
    http://washingtonferret.org/photos.shtml
    http://www.biologie.uni-osnabrueck.d.../lutreola.html
    http://www.wildliferescue.ca/Stories...tory_Clips.htm
    http://home.att.ne.jp/blue/ferret/eg_ft_b2.html



    Yes there are MANY laws/licensing needed to breed any exotic or endangered animal. If you read I stated first off you would need a USDA license for anyone who seels/breeds/gives away an exotic pet. For buig game mammals you need a holding and propagating license, for endangered or threatened species you need a CITES permit. There are VERY strict requirements that need to be met but all of the people who issure these licenses. You need to feed the right food, have spacious enclosures, and they come inspect your facility BEFORE they issue the license. You have to meet all aspects of the Animal Welfare Act.
    Well, maybe in theory. You know as well as I do (or at least you should know, if you are a rescue), however, that I - or anyone else - could go on the internet right now with a credit card and purchase ANY exotic animal we wanted. I could own a whole zoo by this evening! It's done all the time. "Spacious enclosures", my rear-end. If you do exotic animal rescue, you have seen first hand the way these animals live. I saw two tigers this summer, living in an asphalt parking lot, in dog kennels. The "permit" to keep these animals was plainly posted on their dog kennel. It's pathetic, it's an abomination ... and ANYone involved in rescue has seen it and knows it.



    Before you comment on a particular species please do your research.
    I didn't comment on a particular species. I plainly stated, "I'm don't know what kind of tortoise you have, but many, many species of turtles and tortoises are endangered..." I said in the first sentence that I didn't know what kind you had, therefore I wasn't commenting on any particular species ... I was making a general comment about many species. Before you misquote me, please read more carefully.

    Futhermore, you said, "As for my tortoise I have a California Desert Tortoise , yes heis endagered and not because of the pet trade." That is not true. I have listed a few quotes below, there are about 1,000 more on the internet, stating that the pet trade is indeed one reason why the California Desert Tortoise is endangered today.

    "The desert tortoise is an endangered species. It has suffered an enormous decline in population sizes (up to 55% is some areas) due to the loss of habitat, over collecting and vandalism. In 1974, a law was passed making the practice of collecting wild tortoises illegal. However, many are still taken from their habitat for zoos and for their large shell." Source: http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.ed...s/g._agassizii$narrative.html

    And ... "Tortoises have suffered declines due to the degradation of habitat, predation of eggs and young, disease, and collection for the pet trade." Source: http://www.enature.com/fieldguide/sh...?imageID=19318

    And ... "Habitat destruction, pet trade, automobiles, and respiratory disease have reduced their numbers greatly. The respiratory disease was introduced into wild populations when people released infected desert tortoises they had as pets in an attempt to help re-establish the population. Unfortunately, it did more damage than good. Source: http://www.sfzoo.org/cgi-bin/animals.py?ID=46


    Now stop with the finger pointing and get over it.
    Nope, sorry, not going to happen. We are all entitled to our opinions, and we all have the right to voice them. Which I will continue to do, now and always, whenever I see a "rescue" buying unweaned baby animals from an unethical breeder via the internet. It's part of my responsibility as an ethical rescuer to do so.
    "We give dogs the time we can spare, the space we can spare and the love we can spare. And in return, dogs give us their all. It's the best deal man has ever made" - M. Facklam

    "We are raised to honor all the wrong explorers and discoverers - thieves planting flags, murderers carrying crosses. Let us at last praise the colonizers of dreams."- P.S. Beagle

    "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king." - J.R.R. Tolkien

  10. #40
    WOW! Thanks for al of those links!

    I searched for mink rescues and nothing came up. I will be sure to contact them instead! Thanks again!
    Fuzzies for Furries
    Northwest Opossum Society
    Zoology Major
    2 Virginia Opossums, 6 cats, 4 bearded dragons, 1 iguana, 1 red foot tortoise, 1 tripod chihuahua, 5 mice, dubia and hissing cockroaches as well as other misc animals that wander in and out of my home.

  11. #41
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    You're welcome. Want me to look for some more for you?
    "We give dogs the time we can spare, the space we can spare and the love we can spare. And in return, dogs give us their all. It's the best deal man has ever made" - M. Facklam

    "We are raised to honor all the wrong explorers and discoverers - thieves planting flags, murderers carrying crosses. Let us at last praise the colonizers of dreams."- P.S. Beagle

    "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king." - J.R.R. Tolkien

  12. #42
    Can you please? I just did a search and nothing came up at all. All I got where articles on how to feed your ferts. Hmmm.... What search thingy are you using? I don't know of many, just yahoo and aols. What is the best search engine to use?

    Thanks for all your help!!!! I never knew this, it really opens up a whole nother can of worms! I would much rather rescue one than have to purcahase one. Maybe they have a young adult that woud tame failry easy I could use. Thanks again!
    Fuzzies for Furries
    Northwest Opossum Society
    Zoology Major
    2 Virginia Opossums, 6 cats, 4 bearded dragons, 1 iguana, 1 red foot tortoise, 1 tripod chihuahua, 5 mice, dubia and hissing cockroaches as well as other misc animals that wander in and out of my home.

  13. #43
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    I use Google.com. And put in very specific search criteria. I used "mink rescue", but you could even try "mink rescue adoption", to narrow it down further.

    I'm sure most of them won't be what you are looking for ... but you only need to find one good one, right?
    "We give dogs the time we can spare, the space we can spare and the love we can spare. And in return, dogs give us their all. It's the best deal man has ever made" - M. Facklam

    "We are raised to honor all the wrong explorers and discoverers - thieves planting flags, murderers carrying crosses. Let us at last praise the colonizers of dreams."- P.S. Beagle

    "All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king." - J.R.R. Tolkien

  14. #44
    Oh one of the links you gave was a breeder on mink and ferrets.

    The others are based in the UK mostly but I did find one, the one in Washington. I will contact them tonight as I see they have three mink there. However, the animal cannot come to me until the encolsure is built and I get the appropriate license.

    WOW! This makes me feel so much better, you have no idea! I will go try Google, thanks!
    Fuzzies for Furries
    Northwest Opossum Society
    Zoology Major
    2 Virginia Opossums, 6 cats, 4 bearded dragons, 1 iguana, 1 red foot tortoise, 1 tripod chihuahua, 5 mice, dubia and hissing cockroaches as well as other misc animals that wander in and out of my home.

  15. #45
    I know this is an ancient thread, but in case anyone comes across this thinking a mink is a cute alternative to a ferret & gets one, I want to make this apparent: They are nothing alike.

    If female ferrets go unspayed they die eventually from anaemia, if mink go unspayed/neutered they are just fine.

    Ferrets stink, mink don't (unless they spray from the gland under their tail in excitement).

    Mink are larger, especially the males, & far more powerful.

    Some ferrets like baths and water, some don't, mink are more closely related to otters & *need* a deep pool to swim in daily.

    Ferrets are sociable & love being kept in groups. Mink are extremely territorial & will kill any mink, ferret, cat or small dog that comes into their territory.

    Mink love to climb! As in, up your curtains, onto your mantel and windowsills, prepare to have everything knocked over, broken & never open a window again.

    Ferrets actually aren't great hunters, they were domesticated to flush out rabbits into nets for people to kill, & can only be used for ratting a few times before they become too scared & refuse to go down the burrow. Mink can & given the chance will hunt without any training at a young age & are basically fearless, you cannot train them out off it. On the contrary, if trained they are excellent hunters.

    While both can be descented, it is a very dangerous & unnessecary risk to the animals. Descenting is the removal of a gland under the tail which is used when the animal is in pain, fear or feeling aggressive (less common than the other two, but still happens). A domesticated animal has been selectively bred to have a lower adrenaline level - meaning it doesn't feel that fear that a more highly strung wild animal would in a home environment. So a mink is able to "squirt" this foul stench every time it freaks out. Which could be every time the doorbell rings, the phone calls, someone bursts out laughing... Hard to live with, trust me.

    Mink are extremely unpredictable. A bottle raised baby might bond with you, but will still attack anyone it doesn't recognise - there is NO WAY IN HELL you can bring it into schools! Trust me, I love mink, love living with them... But I would never let anyone hold one without understanding they could do everything right & still get their fingers broken or need stitches.

    You also have to deal with animal rights activists. People are wierd with wild animals as pets - some people want to see them as puppies & kittens in fancy coats, some people hate them being kept in captivity.. You will almost never have someone who respects & likes your mink for being a mink. Not a toy, a baby, a monster, a vicious animal... Just a mink.

    Also diet! Ferrets are actually pretty happy with high quality kibble, but mink need fresh meat and fish, they cannot digest that kibble mush. You'll need to buy a mixture of organ, flesh & whole prey food for them, that means rats, mice, chicks, rabbits. They need to chew all those bones & feathers/fur for roughage. No worries though, you can buy them frozen from reptile pet shops. Not cheap though :/

    They can be litter tray trained which is such a relief because what they leave behind... well wow it smells much stronger than cat or dog, just bleh xD

    Then theres pine martens, which have a lot of the same problems, but actually like a little more plant matter in their diet, & instead of the typical mink aggression they're really more shy. They prefer hiding away up high. So you'll need a lot of high shelves & boxes up high for it to hide away in. Also martens are much larger so their bite is worse, buuut they're less likely to bite. You won't find any breeders though, so I'm not sure of where you'd get one. the pet ones I know were bought from trappers at a young age. As in, their mothers had to be killed in order to collect them. Not sure of where that would fit into your rescue plan. My friend only bought her's because the trapper she knew didn't intend to harvest a baby too, he really only wanted adult animals but ended up with this kit too after the mother was killed. It's also worth mentioning that wildlife rescues don't sell their animals as pets, they're legally restrained from doing so. If an animal cannot be released it is almost always killed instead.

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