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Thread: Breeding a male red tri BC (Border Collie)

  1. #1

    Breeding a male red tri BC (Border Collie)

    I have a red tri BC. He has a beautiful coat and is a wonderful companion. Wants to be with me 24/7.
    Is very easy to teach and get to do what I want. He even put up with me when I found 2 cats. Made
    friends with them right away. He is fixed and was never bred. The next dog I get, I was thinking about
    breeding him. This would just be for fun, I don't expect to make any real money at it. I wonder what
    are some of the pitfalls involved in having an unfixed male BC?

    I really like the reddish brown and sable colors on BCs and Aussies. I realize there is a pet overpopulation
    problem. But, I don't believe BCs are part of that problem. I waited 6 months for a BC or Aussie, to be
    given up at a county shelter. The first one, that was, went to a lady in management of the shelter.

    BCs are high maintenance, I understand that. I have a dog park near where I live, otherwise I would not
    have such an energetic dog. The red BC, I have now is 11. I hope he lasts another 5 years. But, sooner
    or later I will need to replace him. My vet says go to a breeder. So, the question will be should I get him
    fixed or not?

  2. #2
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    Please re-think your idea of breeding "just for fun". Fun for who???? - certainly not the dog or the puppies that could end up in a shelter. I am confident that I am with the vast majority of members here, who would place this practice at the very bottom of their list of priorities when it comes to our furry companions. There are thousands of dogs (BC's included - whether or not you want to admit it) that are euthanized every day, because there are no homes for them - yet you want to add to these numbers? If you are so BC crazy, perhaps you should consider volunteering to foster them, or work at a shelter near you. When you see the heartbreak day after day, of dogs longing for love and attention and a home of their own, then perhaps it will give you a new perspective on the life that these poor animals live, while waiting for that slim chance that they will leave the confines of that wire cage behind them. Please don't add to the misery by breeding - just for your fun.
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  3. #3
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    If you are not planning on showing the dog, I would absolutely him fixed. Perhaps the reason you didn't see any at your local shelter is not that there are none out there, but that both Border Collies and Aussies have a very committed rescue community, who will pull them from shelters as soon as they get there, because being in a confined space for any period of time can drive a busy herding breed like them over the edge toward destructive behavior, and cause longer-term problems.

    I just Google "Border Collie Rescue" and cam up with a whole page of Border Collie Rescue groups based in various states and regions - and that's just the first page.

    Go to http://Petfinder.com and type in your zip code and you can look for what dogs are needing homes near you!
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  4. #4
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    As Karen said, the rescues group for both BCs and Aussies are staffed very committed people! Volunteers who love the breeds and know how to work with them.

    Breeding for 'fun' is just nuts. A reputable breeder is going to do extensive genelogical work and have testing done on both sire and dam to ensure no genetic defects are present. A reputable breeder is working to improve the breed, and is actively involved with the breed group - either in conformation, or Agility, field trials, etc. A reputable breeder provides a minimum 2 years health guarantee and will insist that ANY puppy placed be returned to him if the dog cannot be cared for, at any time during the life of the dog. The reputable breeder has all this in the contract, and makes sure the contract is enforced! I've a FB friend enforcing a contract with a bichon puppy she placed in Belgium, and the people apparently got rid of the dog; she has hired legal counsel and is getting the dog BACK.

    Are you committed and prepared to do all of this? Any reputable breeder will tell you, breeding is not a money maker; it is a big financial hole, and they are in it for the love of the breed and to better the breed. NOT 'for fun.'

    Thank you Karen, for fixing my siggy!

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    If you are not planning on showing the dog, I would absolutely him fixed. Perhaps the reason you didn't see any at your local shelter is not that there are none out there, but that both Border Collies and Aussies have a very committed rescue community, who will pull them from shelters as soon as they get there, because being in a confined space for any period of time can drive a busy herding breed like them over the edge toward destructive behavior, and cause longer-term problems.
    I volunteered at a shelter, as a dog walker for 6 months. The problem there was too many Pit Bull mixes. Very few Borders Collies and Aussies came in. When
    ones that did come in, would be adopted quickly. Other desirable dogs were adopted quickly as well. Like Golden Ret, Jack Russells, Beagles and other hounds.
    It was the Pit Bulls, that had the population problem. Both the shelter adoption mgr and myself, worked with some rescue groups. We found them to be very difficult. Like the Ellen Degeneres and Mutts and Moms, issue that was in the media. One group I contacted, said I had to have a fenced in back yard, in order
    to adopt a BC. They had many other requests, like a vet reference. I did not have a dog, at the time, so I would I have that? I gave up on rescue groups.

    I plan to work with my vet, who has not discouraged me from doing this. I also want a BC, in the colors I like. It is my money and I should be able
    to get what I want. My current red tri, is a dog a lot of people ask what kind he is and say what a beautiful coat he has. I give him an Omega 3 capsule
    everyday. That makes his coat shine. He is a lot of fun and a big part of my life. I may have a mental breakdown when he goes. So, I will most likely get
    another dog first.

  6. #6
    The vet isn't going to discourage you from doing this, the vet is going to make money off of this.

    ANY puppy is part of the overpopulation problem, and it is utterly, completely irresponsible and classically narcissistic to breed an animal and add to the overpopulation problem. Animals are getting put to sleep every day because fools continue to breed more.
    The one eyed man in the kingdom of the blind wasn't king, he was stoned for seeing light.

  7. #7
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    Any breeding should only be done to benefit the breed on not only looks and temperament, but also genetically. If you don't know about genetics... you should not venture into breeding. There are also a myriad of medical testing that should be done PRIOR to any breeding to make sure that you are breeding a sound specimen and hopefully contributing TO the gene pool, not taking away from it.

    Breeding should never be "for fun"... if it is, then you are just a backyard breeder. I hate to be that blunt about it, but breeding should be taken WAY more seriously than "I have an intact male, you have an intact female, let's breed them for puppies!!".

    If you really are serious about this, I strongly recommend you look into some local border collie clubs in your area or online and reach out to some breeders there... and perhaps choose one to be your mentor.

    Re: pet overpopulation...

    You say that pit bulls are the problem when in the same breath saying that "other mixes like aussies, BCs, goldens, etc, were adopted out much more quickly". Well... of course they were... for every aussie, BC, golden, etc that was adopted out means that a pit bull puppy was passed up. ANY puppy bred, intentionally, unintentionally, responsibly or irresponsibly, is adding to the pet overpopulation... it does not matter what breed it is. If you're going to do it, at least be responsible about it and do it right or don't do it at all.

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  8. #8
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    Jessika, I just had to post after you to say that I love your signature "passel of pooches" image!
    I've Been Frosted

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karen View Post
    Jessika, I just had to post after you to say that I love your signature "passel of pooches" image!
    Thank you!!!!! This is my "extended" fur family... my two aussies in the middle, my friends two aussies, my sister's pit mixes and my other sister's hound mix. Granted, I no longer have Charlie (blue merle with pricked ears in center) as he went to live with my ex... (I fought so hard to keep him, but, well...). We now have a "Bossie" (BC/Aussie) mix pup who isn't in the picture... but this is just my favorite group picture of the "crew".

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  10. #10
    Agreed agreed and agreed...if you are serious about breeding, find a mentor in the breed...someone who has been in it a long time, who produces high-quality dogs of the type you are looking for. Start to learn about what health issues you should be testing the adult dogs for, what to look for in an excellent match, and how to assess the puppies. Spend a few years learning from your mentor and attending events like conformation shows and herding trials, and soak up all of the information you can. (I was going to just say shows, but I know that in the BC world shows are a highly volatile issue, and some excellent breeders wouldn't let their dogs within a mile of a conformation show) Learn about conformation, health, temperament, drive, the ethics of breeding, etc etc etc...and also make sure you have enough money set aside so that if the bitch needs a c-section or some such she can have it promptly.

    The reality is that there is a LOT of work and not necessarily much FUN in breeding dogs. Be aware that no pairing is a guarantee of anything, even if you have done all of the appropriate health and temperament testing you have only stacked the odds in your favor, you haven't guaranteed a litter free from health or temperament problems. Br prepared to keep, or euthanize, or spend a lot of money treating any such anomalies that pop up in the litter. You also, even with the appropriate genes present, have zero guarantees of producing the exact color/gender combo you want.

    Frankly, if you don't think BCs are part of the overpopulation problem, you haven't taken a close look at it. Go to petfinder.com and search for BCs in your area. TONS of people get these dogs thinking they will be nice family pets, and then discover that they are driven driven driven working dogs that need to be DOING something. There are a LOT of BCs and similar breeds in rescue. Red tri is not a common color in BCs but it is also not terribly uncommon.

    This woman breeds corgis, but her experiences and her vivid writing style paint an excellent picture of what responsible breeding looks like: http://rufflyspeaking.net/category/r...ible-breeding/

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessika View Post
    Re: pet overpopulation...
    You say that pit bulls are the problem when in the same breath saying that "other mixes like aussies, BCs, goldens, etc, were adopted out much more quickly". Well... of course they were... for every aussie, BC, golden, etc that was adopted out means that a pit bull puppy was passed up. ANY puppy bred, intentionally, unintentionally, responsibly or irresponsibly, is adding to the pet overpopulation... it does not matter what breed it is. If you're going to do it, at least be responsible about it and do it right or don't do it at all.
    All puppies from the shelter were adopted fairly fast. The main overpopulation was adult Pit Bulls and Pit Bull mixes. I volunteered at only 1 shelter. Although
    the adoption mgr, also said he was keeping an eye out for a BC, at the 2 other shelters in the area. The Human Society and ASPCA Shelter. They had the same
    thing going on. Small dogs were very in demand, along with the breeds I have mentioned. As far as the vet goes, yes see would make money doing the tests.
    I would adopt a male BC puppy. If she (the vet) thought he was a good candidate, she would give me her findings in writing. If not, I would have to agree to get my dog fixed. Which I would do anyway. If he was not suitable for breeding.

    Let me ask this, due to overpopulation, should breeding just be stopped? Are breeders responsible for overpopulation? I don't think so. Pups and kittens are so
    cute. So, people buy them. Without any idea, they can be almost as much work as a human baby. They also don't think about the costs. I spend $300, when I
    go to the vet. That includes anti-parasite meds. That does not include food or toys, or things he has damaged in the past. Right there is about $500.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug_FL View Post

    Let me ask this, due to overpopulation, should breeding just be stopped? Are breeders responsible for overpopulation? I don't think so. Pups and kittens are so
    cute. So, people buy them. Without any idea, they can be almost as much work as a human baby. They also don't think about the costs. I spend $300, when I
    go to the vet. That includes anti-parasite meds. That does not include food or toys, or things he has damaged in the past. Right there is about $500.
    Puppies and kitties are cute, but they're WORK. Buy a puppy for the cute factor alone, and it's in the paper, on C/L or in a shelter as soon as the people figure out how much work they are, or the landlord won't let them keep them, ad nauseum.

    You want one of the pups. What are you going to do with the rest from the litter? Put them on C/L? Advertise in the paper? That's a great way to get homes for the animals.
    The one eyed man in the kingdom of the blind wasn't king, he was stoned for seeing light.

  13. #13
    No, but due to overpopulation, the average person does not need to be producing pet dogs because "puppies are cute". Ethical breeding is a heavy responsibility, not something to go into because "I want to make cute puppies!". Ethical breeders exist to preserve and improve upon their breed. They put a TON of work, love, and money into their dogs. They study, they learn, they have extensive health testing done on the adults, they get their dogs titled in what the dogs were meant to do. They screen potential families carefully. They offer health guarantees, and have to be prepared to take the dog back at any point during its life. They become a mini-mentor to the people who have their puppies, and they are available to help guide the new owners through the puppy's life.

    IRRESPONSIBLE breeders are absolutely a good chunk of the problem. They think "My two dogs are so great, I should make puppies with them!" They sell the puppies on Craigslist or in the newspaper and then lose contact with the new owner, who is now stuck with a puppy they may or may not be able to handle. THOSE are the dogs that get dumped at the shelter...when I worked in a pet supply store I talked to people EVERY SINGLE DAY who ad bought cute puppies they were now overwhelmed with, and I'd say "Talk to your breeder".....and would get a blank look... "Oh, we got this puppy in the newspaper, we don't still have their number." .....and a thousand similar stories.

    I will reiterate everything I said in my last post. If you are serious about it, FIND A MENTOR in the breed...have them take you to shows and herding trials, and learn all you can. If you still want to breed once you have spent that time learning and studying, talk to your mentor about it.

    Also - google "Border Collie Rescue Florida" ....there are a LOT to choose from.

  14. #14
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    Reputable Breeders are NOT responsible for overpopulation, people that "breed for fun", and other stupid reasons are. Anyone that is not bettering the breed has absolutely no reason to be breeding period. Your children don't need to see the miracle of birth, you don't need a ton of puppies running around because it's cute, etc. Don't make these puppies someone else's problem. You will have plenty of people abandoning these dogs because they will most likely have some health issues, be too hyper, and billion other excuses. As much as you say you won't be adding to the population problem you will be. To every family you give a dog to, they COULD have adopted that sad adult pit in the shelter that REALLY needed that home. There's no excuse for breeding a dog that has no business being bred, period.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alysser View Post
    Reputable Breeders are NOT responsible for overpopulation, people that "breed for fun", and other stupid reasons are. Anyone that is not bettering the breed has absolutely no reason to be breeding period. Your children don't need to see the miracle of birth, you don't need a ton of puppies running around because it's cute, etc. Don't make these puppies someone else's problem. You will have plenty of people abandoning these dogs because they will most likely have some health issues, be too hyper, and billion other excuses. As much as you say you won't be adding to the population problem you will be. To every family you give a dog to, they COULD have adopted that sad adult pit in the shelter that REALLY needed that home. There's no excuse for breeding a dog that has no business being bred, period.
    This pretty much sums up my feelings about breeding.

    No, I don't think *all* breeding should be stopped. But I do think that there is WAY too much irresponsible breeding going on.

    If you are serious about breeding, contact some border collie breeders and get a mentor. However, I do not think your "It is my money and I should be able
    to get what I want" or "this would just be for fun" attitude is an appropriate attitude to have when it comes to this topic... or ANY topic, really. Money should not be the driving factor... the driving factor should be wanting to improve the breed and its gene pool.

    And it's not just about getting proper health clearances, either... your dog should be shown in the appropriate avenues and titled when appropriate to ensure that it IS a good quality stock for the breed and should actually be bred. It is not "for fun"...

    Again... please think long and hard about this. Look up the definition of a backyard breeder.

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