Gun control discussion

[sparks19]

it's already illegal for people to kill other people (unless in self defense). so what makes ANYONE think that illegal guns would have stopped this sicko? Oh this gun is illegal? Oh well then i won't go commit mass murder.

Illegal guns are easier to find here than one might think. drugs are illegal here too but we seem to have QUITE the drug problem in this country that's costing us billions in the "war against drugs" that is WORTHLESS.

then of course one can go onto google or youtube and get step by step instructions on how to make a homemade bomb.

You can't legislate the evil out of humanity no matter how hard you try.

why is everyone always fighting about gun laws and never about the dismal way we handle the mentally ill. once you are 18 nothing can be done to force someone into a mental health facility unless they do something like this. We are a "bare minimum" mindset when it comes to mental illness. this guys mother even said after the fact that she's not at all surprised he did this. what does that tell you? does taht tell you that if guns were illegal he would have just gone on with life? NO it does NOT! and the fact that he booby trapped his apartment with bombs and the like. did he just buy those at the corner store?

LAWS do not matter to the non law abiding. like I said it's already illegal to murder people so why didn't that law stop him?

This is all so very unfortunate but should be looked at as a "how do we improve help for the mentally ill in this country" instead of "OMG ban ALL THE WEAPONS" people will always hurt people no matter what tool they use. We need to find a way to TREAT these people BEFORE it gets to this point. but banning guns is simpler right? A bandaid is all it is

[sparks19]

Translations: Romanian
Not so long ago and in a pasture too uncomfortably close to here, a flock of sheep lived and grazed. They were protected by a dog, who answered to the master, but despite his best efforts from time to time a nearby pack of wolves would prey upon the flock.

One day a group of sheep, more bold than the rest, met to discuss their dilemma. "Our dog is good, and vigilant, but he is one dog and the wolves are many. The wolves he catches are not always killed, and the master judges and releases many to prey again upon us, for no reason we can understand. What can we do? We are sheep, but we do not wish to be food, too!"
One sheep spoke up, saying "It is his teeth and claws that make the wolf so terrible to us. It is his nature to prey, and he would find any way to do it, but it is the tools he wields that make it possible. If we had such teeth, we could fight back, and stop this savagery." The other sheep clamored in agreement, and they went together to the old bones of the dead wolves heaped in the corner of the pasture, and gathered fang and claw and made them into weapons.

That night, when the wolves came, the newly armed sheep sprang up with their weapons and struck at them and cried "Begone! We are not food!" and drove off the wolves, who were astonished. When did sheep become so bold and so dangerous to wolves? When did sheep grow teeth? It was unthinkable!
The next day, flush with victory and waving their weapons, they approached the flock to pronounce their discovery. But as they drew nigh, the flock huddled together and cried out "Baaaaaaaadddd! Baaaaaddd things! You have bad things! We are afraid! You are not sheep!"

The brave sheep stopped, amazed. "But we are your brethren!" they cried, "We are still sheep, but we do not wish to be food. See, our new teeth and claws protect us and have saved us from slaughter. They do not make us into wolves, they make us equal to the wolves, and safe from their viciousness!"
"Baaaaaaaddd!", cried the flock,"the things are bad and will pervert you, and we fear them. You cannot bring them into the flock. They scare us!". So the armed sheep resolved to conceal their weapons, for although they had no desire to panic the flock, they wished to remain in the fold. But they would not return to those nights of terror, waiting for the wolves to come.

In time, the wolves attacked less often and sought easier prey, for they had no stomach for fighting sheep who possessed tooth and claw even as they did. Not knowing which sheep had fangs and which did not, they came to leave sheep out of their diet almost completely except for the occasional raid, from which more than one wolf did not return. Then came the day when, as the flock grazed beside the stream, one sheep's weapon slipped from the folds of her fleece, and the flock cried out in terror again, "Baaaaaaddddd! You still possess these evil things! We must ban you from our presence!".

And so they did. The great chief sheep and his court and council, encouraged by the words of their moneylenders and advisors, placed signs and totems at the edges of the pasture forbidding the presence of hidden weapons there. The armed sheep protested before the council, saying "It is our pasture, too, and we have never harmed you! When can you say we have caused you hurt? It is the wolves, not we, who prey upon you. We are still sheep, but we are not food!". But the flock would not hear, and drowned them out with cries of "Baaaaaaddd! We will not hear your clever words! You and your things are evil and will harm us!".

Saddened by this rejection, the armed sheep moved off and spent their days on the edges of the flock, trying from time to time to speak with their brethren to convince them of the wisdom of having such teeth, but meeting with little success. They found it hard to talk to those who, upon hearing their words, would roll back their eyes and flee, crying "Baaaaddd! Bad things!".

That night, the wolves happened upon the sheep's totems and signs, and said, "Truly, these sheep are fools! They have told us they have no teeth! Brothers, let us feed!". And they set upon the flock, and horrible was the carnage in the midst of the fold. The dog fought like a demon, and often seemed to be in two places at once, but even he could not halt the slaughter. It was only when the other sheep arrived with their weapons that the wolves fled, vowing to each other to remain on the edge of the pasture and wait for the next time they could prey, for if the sheep were so foolish once, they would be so again. This they did, and do still.

In the morning, the armed sheep spoke to the flock, and said, "See? If the wolves know you have no teeth, they will fall upon you. Why be prey? To be a sheep does not mean to be food for wolves!". But the flock cried out, more feebly for their voices were fewer, though with no less terror, "Baaaaaaaadddd! These things are bad! If they were banished, the wolves would not harm us! Baaaaaaaddd!". The other sheep could only hang their heads and sigh. The flock had forgotten that even they possessed teeth; how else could they graze the grasses of the pasture? It was only those who preyed, like the wolves and jackals, who turned their teeth to evil ends. If you pulled their own fangs those beasts would take another's teeth and claws, perhaps even the broad flat teeth of sheep, and turn them to evil purposes.

The bold sheep knew that the fangs and claws they possessed had not changed them. They still grazed like other sheep, and raised their lambs in the spring, and greeted their friend the dog as he walked among them. But they could not quell the terror of the flock, which rose in them like some ancient dark smoky spirit and could not be damped by reason, nor dispelled by the light of day.

So they resolved to retain their weapons, but to conceal them from the flock; to endure their fear and loathing, and even to protect their brethren if the need arose, until the day the flock learned to understand that as long as there were wolves in the night, sheep would need teeth to repel them.
They would still be sheep, but they would not be food!
By Charles Riggs, (C) 1997

[momcat]

Like any other city, there's a lot of shooting in Trenton. There was a story in today's paper about a 76 year old woman who shot and killed her husband. Someone was shot to death about a block from where we live. Sadly, it's a city wide every day event here. I'm terrified of all guns - legal as well as illegal.

[Lady's Human]

Like any other city, there's a lot of shooting in Trenton. There was a story in today's paper about a 76 year old woman who shot and killed her husband. Someone was shot to death about a block from where we live. Sadly, it's a city wide every day event here. I'm terrified of all guns - legal as well as illegal.

Why be terrified of an inanimate object? It's a tool, a mindless, driveless piece of metal. It has no motives of its own. It takes a person to use the tool, and if the person who's using it is evil, it will be used for evil. However, it doesn't take a gun. It could be a knife, a car, or a semi full of fertilizer and fuel.

[cassiesmom]

I read in the newspaper this morning that a group of pastors in Chicago have gotten together and called for a "weekend of peace". I hope it truly happens. There are sad stories on the news almost nonstop around here.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...,4793404.story

I'm with momcat - guns terrify me. To be more specific- what terrifies me is that they keep ending up in the hands of impulsive young gangbangers. Or of mentally unstable people (remember the Northern Illinois University shootings on Valentine's Day 2008?) who get hold of a bunch of weapons and shoot up a public place. I should not have to be afraid every time I go out in public. I think my right to be safe and free from fear trumps the right of someone who shouldn't even have a gun in the first place to go on a shooting spree. Something has to be done to keep these incidents from happening. How to manage chronic city-based gun violence is a lot different from a mentally unstable person in a movie theater or a college lecture hall, though.

[Randi]

Because it's a right to own a gun in the US doesn't mean it's right. Have you ever wondered how other countries are surviving without everyone having one.

Yes, I know that if someone really wants to use a gun he/she will get one somehow, but it will be a lot more difficult, and the person might have had time to cool off before he kill someone.

Btw, is it allowed in all States in the US? And how about Canada?

[phesina]

That's what I've been wondering... Are the gun murder and violence rates much WORSE in countries with strict gun control laws (Canada? England? Denmark? etc.?) than in the U.S.?

.. because after all, the bad guys will always manage to get ahold of the weapons but the good people will not be able to arm themselves for protection? ....

[Alysser]

No one said it makes it right, but perhaps if you lived in "the land of the free", you'd understand where we are coming from a bit better. The US was built on a foundation of freedom, and the right to own a gun is one of the freedoms.

LH brought up another point. Elyse, you are right, you shouldn't fear going out in public. But a gun isn't the only thing that is used to kill people that is legal. Fine, make it harder for someone to get a gun...do you think that's really going to stop someone?? Not a chance. They can use an axe, a home-made bomb, gasoline and a match, even a car. The point is, you shouldn't have to fear these objects (including guns), but in today's society you have to. We can't ban every single object that you can use to kill someone with. If you ban the gun, there's always going to be something else to use. The problem does not lie with the object used. It lies with the person using it.

[robinh]

I've enjoyed reading what everyone had to say (very interesting and diverse, by the way). I don't make a big deal out of my views on this issue and I've hesitated to wade in, but here is my two cents worth.

I was terrified of guns for many years, even the small pellet gun my mom owned. My SO and his father took me to a gun range and taught me how to shoot. They taught me how to tear a gun apart and clean it. Once I understood the safety rules and how a gun fired, I felt less frightened. I also learned - guns don't kill people, people kill people using guns.

I currently own two handguns; a revolver and a semi-automatic. To acquire those guns, I had to apply for a permit to buy and go through a background check. I've taken a gun safety course and through my local county sheriff's office have been allowed to have a legal permit to carry a concealed weapon if I choose....which I never have. I go to the gun range and shoot them infrequently. I'm a law abiding citizen. I don't promote guns to anyone nor would I insist someone buy, own or shoot a gun; but I also believe that if I follow the laws, someone shouldn't be able to tell me I can't own a gun.

Criminals will always find a way to get a gun because they don't get them legally. I'm not sure that banning weapons will accomplish keeping them out of the hands of criminals, it will just make it harder for honest citizens to own a gun.


Can't tell you how many times I've edited this before posting.

[Edwina's Secretary]

No one said it makes it right, but perhaps if you lived in "the land of the free", you'd understand where we are coming from a bit better. The US was built on a foundation of freedom, and the right to own a gun is one of the freedoms.

I live in "the land of the free". Have for a long time. And I don't understand where you are coming from. Not everyone agrees that the right to own a gun is one of those freedoms. That is one interpretation of the Second Amendment.

I do not feel any need to own a gun to feel free. In fact, like Cassiemom's I am afraid of guns. I will not be in a house where there is a gun. I will leave if I find out there is a firearm in the house. It is just too dangerous. My husband would not let his children go to play in houses with guns. Too, too dangerous.

You cannot logically compare a gun to an automobile or a knife or an ax or a can of gasoline. There is a fundamental difference. A car exists to transport people, a knife or ax to cut - food, wood, cloth, etc. Gasoline is to fuel a vehicle. That they may kill is incidental to the purpose for which they exist. Bathtubs can kill too.

A gun exist to kill. Kill. Mostly people. And if you get a fancy enough gun - you can kill lots of people very fast. Guns have no other purpose. They were not invented for sport or for protection. The only "protection" they are perceived to offer is to kill. They were invented to kill.

And that is my opinion. Now the "usual suspects" will flail away saying how wrong I am, etc, etc, etc.... Don't care. I am not going to change my mind - neither will they.

p.s. Did you read about the police officer this week who thought he shot and killed an intruder? Opps! It was his son....

[Karen]

A gun exist to kill. Kill. Mostly people. And if you get a fancy enough gun - you can kill lots of people very fast. Guns have no other purpose. They were not invented for sport or for protection. The only "protection" they are perceived to offer is to kill. They were invented to kill.

I have fired guns many times. I never killed any one or any thing with one. I grew up with guns in the house, and was taught to respect them. Target shooting is a sport. Not one I am very good at, but it is a sport, and doing it well takes skill. Heck, it is an Olympic sport! Police are trained with guns, and trained when to shoot to disable a suspect, not to kill him or her. A gun can be used to do things other than kill. Honest. And the noise from a gun can frighten off wild animals without killing them.

No gun can kill many people as quickly as a single explosive device can. Like a land mine left in place years after a war is over that can go on killing and maiming without any human help. No gun can do that.

Guns are not good. Guns are not evil. Guns are tools.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I absolutely agree with you Karen. Guns are tools. I just don't like the function that particular "tool" is designed to do - kill.

A gun is not designed to scare off a wild animal - Heck...I can scare off a wild animal without a gun...a whistle maybe? Two metal garbage can lids? Won't kill them either.

I oppose land mines every bit as much as I oppose guns. Perhaps even more. I also oppose nuclear weapons. All tools. All designed to kill.

It is not the trained police I am worried about...it is the Rambo wannabes out there!

[mrspunkysmom]

I absolutely agree with you Karen. Guns are tools. I just don't like the function that particular "tool" is designed to do - kill.

A gun is not designed to scare off a wild animal - Heck...I can scare off a wild animal without a gun...a whistle maybe? Two metal garbage can lids? Won't kill them either.

I oppose land mines every bit as much as I oppose guns. Perhaps even more. I also oppose nuclear weapons. All tools. All designed to kill.

It is not the trained police I am worried about...it is the Rambo wannabes out there!

I looked for a LIKE button! Yes, the wannabe heroes are scary. And there is just no reason for anyone to own an assault rifle. Or carry a gun. I think these "tools" make it too easy to kill and not make it up close and personal.

Off my soapbox. Have a great night!

[pomtzu]

I live in "the land of the free". Have for a long time. And I don't understand where you are coming from. Not everyone agrees that the right to own a gun is one of those freedoms. That is one interpretation of the Second Amendment.

I do not feel any need to own a gun to feel free. In fact, like Cassiemom's I am afraid of guns. I will not be in a house where there is a gun. I will leave if I find out there is a firearm in the house. It is just too dangerous. My husband would not let his children go to play in houses with guns. Too, too dangerous.

You cannot logically compare a gun to an automobile or a knife or an ax or a can of gasoline. There is a fundamental difference. A car exists to transport people, a knife or ax to cut - food, wood, cloth, etc. Gasoline is to fuel a vehicle. That they may kill is incidental to the purpose for which they exist. Bathtubs can kill too.

A gun exist to kill. Kill. Mostly people. And if you get a fancy enough gun - you can kill lots of people very fast. Guns have no other purpose. They were not invented for sport or for protection. The only "protection" they are perceived to offer is to kill. They were invented to kill.

And that is my opinion. Now the "usual suspects" will flail away saying how wrong I am, etc, etc, etc.... Don't care. I am not going to change my mind - neither will they.

p.s. Did you read about the police officer this week who thought he shot and killed an intruder? Opps! It was his son....

I know I said I was done with this thread, but I couldn't let the opportunity go by to say I agree with this post 100%!

[blue]

The freedom is the Right to Protect Yourself. Be it with a hammer, a bat, a screwdriver, and yes a firearm. So if you are afraid of a firearm, you should be afraid of all house hold tools as well. As Charles Manson once said, "I can kill you with this book!"