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Thread: Ceasar Millans "training"...

  1. #1
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    Ceasar Millans "training"...

    Long story short, I took Mikey to my friends house yesterday to play with her Westie. He is extremely well behaved. Mikey, however was the most out of control I've seen him in awhile. They were playing AND good for awhile. Then randomly Mikey lifted his leg and peed a very little bit on the rug. They weren't mad but I WAS so embarrassed. HE NEVER marks. I take him to work, never marked there, my house he never has accidents he knows better. Her mom said it's ok he was just marking his territory. But no, that is NOT OK and not appropriate. He also kept trying to mount the dog every few minutes. This really made him look like a nuisance well-behaved domineering dog and he is not like that AT ALL at home. He is FINE on hikes and in my neighborhood. While walking around her neighborhood he was pulling like crazy. It made both him and me look bad. Later we went to my house, and my friend saw how well-behaved he was there, so she believes it's just cause he was in a new environment. Maybe so..I really couldn't tell you.

    I am not an all knowing expert on dog training but I pride myself in how well Mikey behaves on hikes, walks, and in our home. I have used mostly Victoria Stilwell's methods and have had success with that. Mikey is very food motivated. I will say I never really watch Ceasar Millan's show because I don't like his methods. So where does CM come in in all this? While walking Mikey, they were using his methods like sitting the dog down till he stops pulling and acting like the mother dog "biting" the nape of their neck, things like that. They were using language like 'he's dominate over you', 'he's leading you', etc. I wasn't happy about it but it was working, especially making him sit till he stopped pulling, but that is not really CM material to me.

    OKAY, so anyway, my main problem is Ceasar Millan, he uses the out-dated dominance theory technique. I was watching more of his shows before I wrote this. There was an aggressive dog, and he kept using weird language like 'taming the wild beast'. First of all, it's a dog not a wild beast. I have never agreed with the dominance theory. I think it's complete bullock that everything a dog does that is bad is them trying to dominate and take over. I don't think sitting on the floor is showing them you are "equals". I don't think rolling them on their back does ANYTHING. I've known dogs that this has caused nothing but more aggression on. I don't think that when a dog is walking it front of you he thinks he is superior, actually that sounds just absurd to me. Dogs have a faster walking pace then us slow-poke and most of them want to go for a walk, and see everything, smell everything - they don't want to be "tied" to a human. I do know some dogs that have completely taken control of their owners and I DO know they need some grounding as to who is boss, but to me rolling them on their back, going through a door before them does not prove anything. I don't believe their is any one good technique for every situation but I believe some work better than others.

    So I guess this is a rant about CM. I am not claiming to be an all knowing dog trainer, far from it. But I do think that his methods are bogus. I guess people have to find what works for them. As for me, I will strive to never use Millan's methods. I like Stilwell alot, although I agree sometimes her techniques seem soft Millans are all about psychology that don't make any sense to me. As much as we want to act like a mother dog to a dog, that doesn't happen, we are not dogs and they don't see us as such. As for the pulling, I will try some of Stilwells techniques and possibly the one that makes him sit and stop pulling.

    Any advice about the marking and mounting?? I'd really like to curb that if possible, especially the mounting.
    Mikey - [Pug/Beagle Mix] Spock and T'Stala - [Hermit Crabs] Rest in Peace, Bo. I love you - [African Cawed Frog] Bo II - [Guppy] Buzz - [VT Male Betta] Chippewa - [BT Male Betta]
    "Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you."

  2. #2
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    Is the Westie intact or neutered? And . . . does the Westie mark, in his own home?

    These are the 2 obvious things I thought of with what you described. Especially that the Westie's mom wasn't furious another dog peed in her house???? Huge clue that maybe the Westie marks in the house.

    I don't like Cesar Millan's techniques either. There was a recent article that Cesar gets positive reinforcement - he is making tons of money selling his books, vids etc. lol. But the article went on that the dogs are getting punishment training. It's been well known for some time that his methods are not positive reinforcement training.

    My Willy marks, even here in his own home. So, he wears a belly band in the house at all times. I don't know of any way to train out humping or marking. Sorry, can't help on that point.
    Thank you Karen, for fixing my siggy!

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    Is the Westie intact or neutered? And . . . does the Westie mark, in his own home?

    These are the 2 obvious things I thought of with what you described. Especially that the Westie's mom wasn't furious another dog peed in her house???? Huge clue that maybe the Westie marks in the house.

    I don't like Cesar Millan's techniques either. There was a recent article that Cesar gets positive reinforcement - he is making tons of money selling his books, vids etc. lol. But the article went on that the dogs are getting punishment training. It's been well known for some time that his methods are not positive reinforcement training.

    My Willy marks, even here in his own home. So, he wears a belly band in the house at all times. I don't know of any way to train out humping or marking. Sorry, can't help on that point.
    Ya know, Sandie, that is a brilliant question and point. He is neutered but I didn't see him marking. Maybe he smelled something that was there before?? I really don't know. The westie is very well-behaved from what I could see.
    Mikey - [Pug/Beagle Mix] Spock and T'Stala - [Hermit Crabs] Rest in Peace, Bo. I love you - [African Cawed Frog] Bo II - [Guppy] Buzz - [VT Male Betta] Chippewa - [BT Male Betta]
    "Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you."

  4. #4
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    I am not sticking up for either professional trainer in my post. However, my brother uses Cesar's techniques and they work for him. I was amazed one day when I saw my brother walking over to my moms house (they live in the country so it's a nice walk through the trees) and all five dogs were walking nice and slow right behind him. He told me he hadn't even told them to. He said if they had run ahead he wouldn't have corrected them. But they know him and that's what they do. When I walk with them they are all over the place. Running ahead and then coming back to me. My brother is not mean to the dogs. He is firm with them and they know when he says something they listen. I like watching Cesar. I agree with his calm-assertiveness that he teaches the people. I actually want to learn how to do that. That is my problem with Zoee and I can't figure out how to do it.
    I also like Victoria and her techniques. So I tend to use both trainers ideas with my dogs. Like you said...it's what ever works with YOUR dog. I also respect people's opinions that do not like Cesar, because I know LOTS of people that do not like him.

    I recently went to my sisters house and her youngest dog (a Boston Terrier) is out of control. And I am actually surprised since my sister has done dog training before. But the reason he is the way he is is because my sisters husband allows it. I walked down the hall and Quinn growled at me. Les said no to him then leaned over and kissed him on the head. He was reinforcing the behavior. My sister even knows it but said there's nothing she can do about it.

    Anyway, I have no advice about the marking. Taggart marks at my moms house and if he stays there for long periods of time he has to wear the belly band. He doesn't do this anywhere else. So I will watch this thread to see if others have advice on that.
    The mounting is another thing I don't know how to deal with. Zoee does this to Taggart ALL the time. And the other day at the dog park Taggart started doing it to another dog. I was so embarrassed. Then another dog started doing it to the same female dog. I would just tell Taggart no when he did it and he stopped. I also just tell Zoee to stop when she does it. I sometimes just wish Taggart would turn around and tell her to stop himself.
    Our goal in life should be - to be as good a person as our dog thinks we are.

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    Cindy (Human) - Taz (RB Tabby) - Zoee (Australian Shepherd) - Paizly (Dilute Tortie) - Taggart (Aussie Mix) - Jax (Brown & White Tabby)

  5. #5
    I train Jasper with a Sit Means Sit shock collar. It works well for us. Jasper has almost completely stopped humping now that I can stop him in an instant before he gets "into the groove".

    Like you said, everyone needs to find what works for them. Have you read Cesar's books? A lot of his materal does make sense - dogs are dogs, not people...they need a lot more exercise than the average person gives them...having a calm, relaxed attitude while working with your dog will achieve results that you won't see if you are stressed out and strung out while working with your dog. I don't like all of the techniques he uses, but a lot of what he says rings quite true to me, especially about under-exercised American dogs. I see them all the time in my store.

  6. #6
    I really don't have a problem with CM. I watched a lot of his shows before I got Clover. I really feel like he gets the job done and helps a lot of dogs. I think if the dog is aggressive and nothing else works and he can help then I'm all for it.

    I personally don't use all his methods with Clover. I don't believe if I let her on my bed with me that she's going to become dominant. I also won't do that "kick" thing he does while walking dogs. I don't like to use any sort of contact like that. It's not for me or Clover. It's not necessary for her. She is well behaved for the most part.

    I do ask her to sit while dogs pass but that's just my own preference. She knows sit/stay better then come, so instead of strangling her self to get to the dog, she will sit calmly beside me.

    I do agree with some things he says and not others. I really do think he knows what he's talking about though but it works better with some dogs more so then others.

    Zeke, Clover, Loki and Shadow

  7. #7
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    I often think of CM's procedures like the proverbal "Sledge Hammer", when normal methods don't work. It's unfortunate that in many instances shown, his "last resort" is the last resort.
    Sneakers, Becca, Ichabod & NA'vi

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  8. #8
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    Alysser, I could not agree with you more! I get those comments from CM people... "ugh, your dogs are obviously leading you" as my dogs walk politely with a loose leash. How does it make you a "leader" to FORCE your dog, jerking them on leash, to walk behind or beside you? My dogs compete in Obedience and will heel the second I tell them to - but won't trudge with head and tail down behind me at all times - and that is fine by me!!! I taught them that it's a law of nature that we don't move forward if the leash is taut, so they stay loose leash all of the time and have a blast on walks. Why even walk a dog if they aren't able to get any mental stimulation from it, smell the grass, and stretch their legs? Yeah, I'd much rather have a happy, confident, naturally behaved dog who is enjoying every minute with me, even if you perceive him as DOMINANT. I'd rather have a 'dominant' dog than a miserable robot of a dog, who is too afraid that I'll jerk them, hand-bite them or shock them to do anything at all! If you want your dog to be "calm submissive" and barely function at all times, best get a giant stuffed animal and not put a living, feeling, loyal, social creature through a life of fear and suppression.

    I find that Cesar humanizes dogs more than the ridiculous people he consults who baby their dogs to the max. At least those people show their dogs love and empathy! Cesar, on the other hand, is hell-bent on alpha rolling, hanging and scruffing dogs into complete learned helplessness... in his mind, dogs are evil, maniacal creatures who are constantly striving to be "dominant" over their human owners. Is that not humanizing dogs to the max?!? Humans (men in particular) are the only animal who obsesses over being the dominant species! Why project that onto our loving dogs who just want to make us happy and work for us? Dogs are not people. Dogs are not wolves, either! If they were, dog parks, dog daycare, service dogs, etc would not exist. His methodology is based on his own uneducated observations of Mexican strays & dominance theory is based on a captive wolf pack study from 60 years ago that has been completely disproven. He has never been educated in animal behavior, and despite making millions he has no interest in proven, science-based methods. He started out an aspiring actor. EVERY single veterinary behaviorist in the country speaks out against Cesar. I suppose behaviorists with PhD's just know nothing, because they don't have a fancy, fictional sensational TV show.

    Anyone who questions for a second that Cesar Millan is an abusive, baseless moron needs to watch these two videos. In the first, a German Shepherd chases a cat... wow, lady, how are you shocked (pun intended) that your high prey drive working GSD chases your cat?! Desensitize her to the cat's presence and keep the cat comfortable and safe. But instead, CM slaps a shock collar on the dog obviously on a very high setting, freaks the poor cat out beyond belief, and hurts/scares the dog to the point that she redirects and bites her owner (this dog has never bitten before)! WTF how is this considered training?! What's worse, a dog who has natural prey drive and simply needs obedience training, or a dog who is pushed and confused beyond belief with a painful shock collar and has learned to BITE her owner? The second video is a primitive breed, a Jindo, rescued from living as a stray in a 3rd world country... the owners say the dog is perfectly content and friendly living outside, but they want him to come inside. So Cesar drags him inside and strings him up on a slip lead until he begins to asphyxiate. Again, how is that not abuse? If you saw some one hanging a dog, would you not report it? Why is he so special and allowed to set dogs up for failure and then hang them, because it's a "last resort"?... so, why doesn't he ever exhaust any positive methods, which have been scientifically proven to modify aggressive behaviors, before resorting to violence? NEVER. He even says that treats only work for "training", not "rehabilitation". How is training not the same?! It's all part of his senseless babble that he sells to unassuming viewers all too well. And he creates ticking timebombs who fear human hands and "behave" only because they are shut down. I know several people who paid Cesar to train their dogs before he became famous and forced people to sign confidentiality agreements, and all of them either felt their dogs were ruined by him & took years to recover with positive methods, or had to euthanize their dogs because the methods pushed them over the edge.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GptupfqLYwc

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyw4bZ1urRE (skip to 6:00 and MUTE the ignorance)



    <3 Erica, Fozz n' Gonz

  9. #9
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    Yeeeah, watching Cesar Milan usually angers me so I try not to. He does get some things right, sure. But it's such basic things and he explains it in the most ridiculous pseudo-science ways I just do not think that the few things he does get right, justify his methods in any way.
    I hear lots of people say that he "rehabilitates" and doesn't "train" and that he is the last resort etc. etc. Again, I do not think that justifies his methods. Has anyone seen the series "Dogtown"? It's about a rescue center in Utah that only takes the most extreme and unadoptable dogs which other shelters turn down. They get strays which have never had human contact, ex-fighting dogs and extreme abuse cases and not ONE of these trainers uses anything but positive reinforcement, love, and understanding. And you see these dogs starting to love people again, enjoy playing and generally enjoy life despite their past. That is true rehabilitation.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by bckrazy View Post
    Alysser, I could not agree with you more! I get those comments from CM people... "ugh, your dogs are obviously leading you" as my dogs walk politely with a loose leash. How does it make you a "leader" to FORCE your dog, jerking them on leash, to walk behind or beside you? My dogs compete in Obedience and will heel the second I tell them to - but won't trudge with head and tail down behind me at all times - and that is fine by me!!! I taught them that it's a law of nature that we don't move forward if the leash is taut, so they stay loose leash all of the time and have a blast on walks. Why even walk a dog if they aren't able to get any mental stimulation from it, smell the grass, and stretch their legs? Yeah, I'd much rather have a happy, confident, naturally behaved dog who is enjoying every minute with me, even if you perceive him as DOMINANT. I'd rather have a 'dominant' dog than a miserable robot of a dog, who is too afraid that I'll jerk them, hand-bite them or shock them to do anything at all! If you want your dog to be "calm submissive" and barely function at all times, best get a giant stuffed animal and not put a living, feeling, loyal, social creature through a life of fear and suppression.

    I find that Cesar humanizes dogs more than the ridiculous people he consults who baby their dogs to the max. At least those people show their dogs love and empathy! Cesar, on the other hand, is hell-bent on alpha rolling, hanging and scruffing dogs into complete learned helplessness... in his mind, dogs are evil, maniacal creatures who are constantly striving to be "dominant" over their human owners. Is that not humanizing dogs to the max?!? Humans (men in particular) are the only animal who obsesses over being the dominant species! Why project that onto our loving dogs who just want to make us happy and work for us? Dogs are not people. Dogs are not wolves, either! If they were, dog parks, dog daycare, service dogs, etc would not exist. His methodology is based on his own uneducated observations of Mexican strays & dominance theory is based on a captive wolf pack study from 60 years ago that has been completely disproven. He has never been educated in animal behavior, and despite making millions he has no interest in proven, science-based methods. He started out an aspiring actor. EVERY single veterinary behaviorist in the country speaks out against Cesar. I suppose behaviorists with PhD's just know nothing, because they don't have a fancy, fictional sensational TV show.

    Anyone who questions for a second that Cesar Millan is an abusive, baseless moron needs to watch these two videos. In the first, a German Shepherd chases a cat... wow, lady, how are you shocked (pun intended) that your high prey drive working GSD chases your cat?! Desensitize her to the cat's presence and keep the cat comfortable and safe. But instead, CM slaps a shock collar on the dog obviously on a very high setting, freaks the poor cat out beyond belief, and hurts/scares the dog to the point that she redirects and bites her owner (this dog has never bitten before)! WTF how is this considered training?! What's worse, a dog who has natural prey drive and simply needs obedience training, or a dog who is pushed and confused beyond belief with a painful shock collar and has learned to BITE her owner? The second video is a primitive breed, a Jindo, rescued from living as a stray in a 3rd world country... the owners say the dog is perfectly content and friendly living outside, but they want him to come inside. So Cesar drags him inside and strings him up on a slip lead until he begins to asphyxiate. Again, how is that not abuse? If you saw some one hanging a dog, would you not report it? Why is he so special and allowed to set dogs up for failure and then hang them, because it's a "last resort"?... so, why doesn't he ever exhaust any positive methods, which have been scientifically proven to modify aggressive behaviors, before resorting to violence? NEVER. He even says that treats only work for "training", not "rehabilitation". How is training not the same?! It's all part of his senseless babble that he sells to unassuming viewers all too well. And he creates ticking timebombs who fear human hands and "behave" only because they are shut down. I know several people who paid Cesar to train their dogs before he became famous and forced people to sign confidentiality agreements, and all of them either felt their dogs were ruined by him & took years to recover with positive methods, or had to euthanize their dogs because the methods pushed them over the edge.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GptupfqLYwc

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyw4bZ1urRE (skip to 6:00 and MUTE the ignorance)
    This is truly the perfect post and I agree with literally everything you've written. I've read of even a few accounts where after he "trained" the dog they've gotten worse. Some were given away or put down. I watched one in particular that bothered me. The dog's name was Jonbee, I think and he was also a Jindo. He was given away after the show... He didn't improve in the least and honestly it upset me to watch the entire thing!

    My dog can be in front if he is relaxed, sniffing, and on a lax leash. He isn't DOMINANT. He knows who controls the walk. I want my dog to enjoy his walk. We both enjoy the walks now that he doesn't pull. He isn't constantly be pulled, choked, and corrected and I don't have to have my arm yanked out. I don't see how that is enjoyable for the dog at all. I will admit he isn't very good with heel, but he doesn't pull my arm out anymore. He knows 'wait' and will sit down or stop on a dime.

    A Pro-CM person on another blog I was reading said something about how harnesses were the worst for pullers because it tells them that means work and that they need to pull. Um, no. My Pug/Beagle mix isn't a husky. He isn't bred for that kind of work and he's not thinking that when I put that on. He's thinking "HURRY UP I WANT TO WALK!". I don't get how that even makes sense. I don't get how a dog at a heel the entire walk is enjoyable. It most certainly isn't.

    But BCKRAZY, I literally agree 100% with your post.
    Mikey - [Pug/Beagle Mix] Spock and T'Stala - [Hermit Crabs] Rest in Peace, Bo. I love you - [African Cawed Frog] Bo II - [Guppy] Buzz - [VT Male Betta] Chippewa - [BT Male Betta]
    "Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you."

  11. #11
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    Varga, that's another thing that reallyyyy bothers me about CM. People act like he's some kind of ground-breaking genius for telling people to exercise their dogs and set boundaries. Isn't that COMMON SENSE? Dogs need exercise and walks to be happy. I knew that when I was 3 years old. Dogs need boundaries, they need to be taught they can't bolt out of doors or eat the food off of your plate. Again, who doesn't realize this? In a world where science is making ground-breaking discoveries, where we can train Orcas to do complex behaviors using only clickers and fish, where real pioneers like Karen Pryor and Leslie McDevitt are coming up with amazingly easy ways to change the way our dogs think like Look At That and Behavior Adjustment Training, HOW does anyone believe in a man who uses brutal caveman methods to scare dogs into a shut down state (which he calls "calm submissive")? And the sad part is, people use these brutal techniques on their perfectly sweet dogs who just need to be taught manners, not "red zone" cases. A member of this forum's Mom, a long time ago, was using CM's techniques and her dog bit her, which resulted in his death. How sad that a dog died because of a fictional, highly edited TV show.

    Dogtown is amazing. They truly change the way dogs think and feel, using scientifically proven, positive methods: conditioning, desensitizing, and positive reinforcement. They don't just suppress aggressive behaviors with fear and pain, that doesn't change anything, it only manages the aggression that is still there. If a dog isn't suitable for a home, Dogtown lets them live there for life. They are so admirable and responsible in helping dogs. I would love to work there. Of course Dogtown hasn't enjoyed the fame that CM has, because they don't push dogs into attacking them, they don't have dramatic music and set up dogs for failure so that Cesar can beat them up... it's not as exciting & entertaining, because it's real and methodical and based on peaceful behavior modification. People want ACTION and instant results.

    Alysser, the second video I posted was the Jonbee case!!! I just don't understand why those people wouldn't allow a feral dog to live a happy life in their backyard? Why force him to come inside? They could've tried slowly desensitizing him, but instead they dragged him inside and terrorized that poor dog. The lady looks so mortified by what Cesar is doing to her dog, I would BEAT THE $#!& out of anyone who tried doing that to my dogs.

    I've heard that from Cesar and other people about harnesses too. There have been many recent studies linking harsh collar corrections, chokers, prongs and shock collars to CANCER, hypothyroidism, whiplash, allergies, ear and eye issues, along with many other ailments. If you think about it, jerking around a dog and letting them self correct is damaging their spine, thyroid, neck and throat. Damage to this area can cause an array of health issues, which people would never make the connection with collar corrections. I walk my dogs on a comfortable, thick slip lead & on a harness on walks. Fozzie actually never pulls with his step-in harness on, even as a puppy. It's so funny.



    <3 Erica, Fozz n' Gonz

  12. #12
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    LOL You would THINK that was common sense!! Honestly, he is far from a ground breaking genius. I just wish people would see that. Common sense was it comes to dogs seems to be a rare trait these days. I read his first book, which I don't recall the name of right now and while I was reading it I guess I wasn't paying much attention the first time. I didn't actually MIND his methods, never used 'em but didn't mind them. A year later I read it again and was horrified. I started watching the show and just stopped after a few. It really is upsetting to watch, I really don't understand how those people sit through this idiot doing those things to their dogs.

    Oh, was it that case? I tried the link and it said something about being blocked for me. I probably just need to log in but I'll try and watch it later. I just remember watching that and becoming very frustrated with the whole thing.

    One thing I really don't like about him is the language he uses. It seems to me like he is trying to trick people into thinking he came up with this whole new "dominance theory" even though it's as old as the hills. He comes up with new names for everything and just makes NO sense half the time. It just irks me that he called Jonbee, the wild beast. I am sure he refers to other dogs like that.
    Mikey - [Pug/Beagle Mix] Spock and T'Stala - [Hermit Crabs] Rest in Peace, Bo. I love you - [African Cawed Frog] Bo II - [Guppy] Buzz - [VT Male Betta] Chippewa - [BT Male Betta]
    "Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you."

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