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Thread: Politics and religion.

  1. I ask this question -- not to start anything but because I want to understand.

    How is it that abortion is against the Bible, but killing people after they are born isn't?

    Like the death sentence.
    Especially when you think how many have been on death row and then, through DNA or the like be found not to be responsible for the crime for which they were sentenced? It appears our (any for that matter) system of justice is not infallible. Is it okay to kill someone we think is guilty? What if we are wrong?

    And war.
    We don't like the government of a country. In the case of Iraq, how many hundreds of thousands of people have been killed -- women, children, babies, non-combatants of all kinds? That happens in war. Killing. Look at what is going on in Georgia.

    If someone is pro-life, don't they have to be against war and the death sentence?

  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary View Post
    I ask this question -- not to start anything but because I want to understand.

    How is it that abortion is against the Bible, but killing people after they are born isn't?

    Like the death sentence.
    Especially when you think how many have been on death row and then, through DNA or the like be found not to be responsible for the crime for which they were sentenced? It appears our (any for that matter) system of justice is not infallible. Is it okay to kill someone we think is guilty? What if we are wrong?

    And war.
    We don't like the government of a country. In the case of Iraq, how many hundreds of thousands of people have been killed -- women, children, babies, non-combatants of all kinds? That happens in war. Killing. Look at what is going on in Georgia.

    If someone is pro-life, don't they have to be against war and the death sentence?
    Good points!
    don't breed or buy while shelter dogs die....

    I have been frosted!

    Thanks Kfamr for the signature!


  3. #363
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    Over the years here at PT this is a subject that has come up many times. While I don't want to get into a long series of posts here I do want to say a few things. I was raised in a family who brought me up in a church where I could learn about God. I have always had a hunger to learn about the things of God, and the church I attended when growing up was a teaching church where questions were encouraged. The study of the Bible is essential in order to see what God's mind is on a subject. He does not change even though our society may and that gives me comfort. There are a couple of verses that I want to quote here that might shed some light on what God's thoughts are on the pre-born person. Perhaps you don't believe the Bible - - well then you need read no further. There are others but I will stop with these two.

    Jeremiah 1:5:

    Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee;


    Luke 1:42:

    And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. (This was Elizabeth speaking upon meeting Mary who was pregnant with Jesus. She referred to Mary as the mother of her Lord, who was still in utero, but in Elizabeth's mind she was a mother already.)

    (For those who are Catholic you may recall reciting the Hail Mary and the words "fruit of thy womb, Jesus.") The above verse is the source of that prayer. There was Someone very important in Mary's womb. Had she decided to have an abortion (after all, she was unmarried) we would have no Savior.

    Yes, I have heard the argument about not bringing a baby into this world to live in poverty. I ask you which is the worse sin - living in poverty or not even getting the chance to be born? Ask a poor person if they would rather be dead. I doubt you will get any yes answers. We would not think of killing a poor living child to relieve their sufferings. What makes man think he has the right to kill an unborn child to save them from future sufferings. Interestingly, often when women are given the option of viewing their unborn child on ultrasound they then realize that they have a life inside of them and many change their minds as if the heartbeat and kicking were not in themselves reality enough of the fact.

    Years ago I was reading an editorial in my local newspaper. It was written by a nurse and I will never forget it. She worked in labor/delivery at the hospital where my son was born and wrote about the messed up world we live in where in one room a mother gave birth to a pre-mature child and the doctors were moving heaven and earth to help that baby live. On the very same floor another baby, aborted at the same gestational age, was left to die. She had to leave nursing after that experience.

    I am not interested in debating this issues here on this board as I will never see this any other way so nothing will be accomplished by multiple posts on my part.

    Regarding war, all that I can say is that the Old Testament is full of wars. Yes God even chose sides - Israel! Jesus spoke of wars and rumors of wars in the end times. If you want to deepen your faith, begin reading Biblical prophecy. It reads like today's newspapers. God is real and His opinions matter. I don't have all of the answers to life but I try my best to learn God's view on a subject. He created me and some day I will return to Him.

  4. #364
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    Pam I totally respect your opinion even if mine differs I have always respected you, your one of my favorite people here. These are things that are close to your heart and nobody here would expect you to change or even have to defend them.
    don't breed or buy while shelter dogs die....

    I have been frosted!

    Thanks Kfamr for the signature!


  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by caseysmom View Post
    Pam I totally respect your opinion even if mine differs I have always respected you, your one of my favorite people here. These are things that are close to your heart and nobody here would expect you to change or even have to defend them.
    Thank you for understanding Caseysmom.

  6. #366
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    I quess I just don't feel I have the right to tell another woman what she has to do with her body. She has to live with whatever choice she makes. I'd sure try and make sure she chose life for her baby if I could though.

    However, if someone really doesn't want a baby, they will find a way to get rid of it one way or another.

    I keep thinking of the Susan Smith case. She drove her car into a lake with her two sweet boys strapped into the back seat and drowned them. Just because she thought they cramped her style with a new boy friend.

    I can't imagine anything more horrible than the screams of those two babies. you know they were calling for her because "MOM" is always the one we trust to keep us safe. Which is a more horrible way to die? That way or before you are born? I just don't have any answers.
    No matter what anyone does, someone some where will be offended some how!!!!
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    MY BLESSINGS:
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    Grandma (RB), Chester, Angel, Chip

    Leonardo (RB), Luke (RB), Winnie, Chuck,

    Frankie

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    WHERE YOU ARE IS WHERE YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE!!!
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  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by momoffuzzyfaces View Post
    I quess I just don't feel I have the right to tell another woman what she has to do with her body. She has to live with whatever choice she makes. I'd sure try and make sure she chose life for her baby if I could though.

    However, if someone really doesn't want a baby, they will find a way to get rid of it one way or another.

    I feel the same way. I believe each woman should have the right to make
    this decision. Just because it would not be my choice, I feel I don't have
    the right to deny this choice to another woman. That's pretty much it.
    We each will face God one day & I believe he can judge hearts like no
    human ever could.

    Seems we have strayed from politics into religion & I never try to convert
    anyone's heart in religious matters. It's a way too personal issue. I can
    discuss politics till the cows come home, but I draw the line at religion.
    I've Been Boo'd

    I've been Frosted






    Today is the oldest you've ever been, and the youngest you'll ever be again.

    Eleanor Roosevelt

  8. Again, I have no desire to debate or start a rukus. When the subject was brought up, I was just hoping to gain some understanding. I have often ponder the disconnect in either side....can you be pro-choice and anti-death penalty or anti-abortion and pro-death penalty?

    Sorry if my question ruffled feathers (or fur.)

    But....how does this work
    I can discuss politics till the cows come home, but I draw the line at religion
    when the title of the thread is Politics and Religion? Can you have it both ways? Or do you have to totally separate politics and religion (which would be just fine with me and in line with the constitution)!

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary View Post
    ....can you be pro-choice and anti-death penalty or anti-abortion and pro-death penalty?

    when the title of the thread is Politics and Religion? Can you have it both ways?
    Sarah, there are pro-life people on both sides of that issue (death penalty). Capital punishment was practiced in the Old Testament and also in the New Testament (crucifixtions, stonings, etc.) but Jesus often took a different stance when confronted with people who had "sinned." I don't have a good answer for you.

    Correct the thread is titled Politics and Religion. Richard sort of steered it to its current topic with his comments about the questioning of the two candidates by Rick Warren. I think this has been an amazing thread, considering its length and not getting out of hand and needing Karen to lock it as she has had to do with other threads. <<applause>>

  10. There is always another side to the discussion....

    According to my OC newspaper..."The pretense of neutrality is really a left-wing illusion. It's a sleight of hand to buy into relativism and somehow Warren seems to have fallen into the trap."

    That has to be a first.

  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pam View Post
    Richard sort of steered it to its current topic with his comments about the questioning of the two candidates by Rick Warren. I think this has been an amazing thread, considering its length and not getting out of hand and needing Karen to lock it as she has had to do with other threads. <<applause>>
    Oh,
    I get blamed for EVERYTHING!


    What is a rukus?

  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by RICHARD View Post
    Oh,

    What is a rukus?
    ruckus - a noisy commotion; uproar.

  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace View Post
    ruckus - a noisy commotion; uproar.
    oh, I "C".

    ---------

    Pam,

    THere were times I wanted to delete the dang thing but I had the same thought that you had.

    IT has been a great thread and pretty civil. It's another feather in the caps of everyone who has posted in and read it-we all don't see eye to eye or share the same faith, but it is nice to be able to toss out ideas without the drama.

  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary View Post

    But....how does this work when the title of the thread is Politics and Religion? Can you have it both ways? Or do you have to totally separate politics and religion (which would be just fine with me and in line with the constitution)!

    Obviously religious upbringing will influence who you are as a person and
    possibly influence your view of how the world should be. So they do tie in
    together. On specific topics like abortion or the death penalty, you will
    always find groups with strickly pro or con views. I respect each choice
    and believe we should take it to the ballot box to elect like minded people.
    I've Been Boo'd

    I've been Frosted






    Today is the oldest you've ever been, and the youngest you'll ever be again.

    Eleanor Roosevelt

  15. #375
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    Question: what does the Olympics have to do with when the vp candidates are told?

    On the news several times lately they wonder when the candidates will spill the beans and tell who their running mates will be. Seveal different news channels have all said they should wait until after the Olympics.

    So, what? People who watch the Olympics will not hear who's running between now and NOVEMBER?

    Do they think the entire country is breatlessly awaiting the big announcements?

    *waves feeble hand* h-e-l---p!!!
    No matter what anyone does, someone some where will be offended some how!!!!
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    MY BLESSINGS:
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Grandma (RB), Chester, Angel, Chip

    Leonardo (RB), Luke (RB), Winnie, Chuck,

    Frankie

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    WHERE YOU ARE IS WHERE YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE!!!
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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