I looked up Back Yard Breeder. I don't see it pertaining to me or what my plans are. I have only spoken to my vet once about this.
I have going to that practice for 10 years. The comments I have gotten seem to suggest, only a very few people have the right to
breed dogs. And if I breed mine, it will force a Pit Bull to remain in a shelter. The reality is there are too many Pit Bulls, not too many
BCs. People are scared of that breed, that is why there are so many in shelter. I would not even have one. The building where I live
does not allow them. A Border Collie or Aussie was not a problem. Pits can be unpredictable. They can cause a problem with home
owners insurance as well. Attachment 58264Attachment 58265Attachment 58266Attachment 58267Attachment 58268
If I can get a male puppy that looks as good as the first three photos, I will look into breeding him. The last two photos are of the dog I
have now. He turned out to be healthy and very much within breed standards. I wish I could have breed him. But, he had to be fixed,
due to county law where I got him. It was a county animal control & shelter, in the Tampa St Pete area.
Pitties are fine dogs as long as they're raised correctly.
Your ignorance (on many issues) is palpable.
You're obviously not looking for advice, so why did you start the thread?
Confirmation and pats on the back.
I have wondered that too? If Doug has contact with his veterinary, why come here?
Originally Posted by snakemama
Veterinarians have contacts, maybe his veterinary can line him up with another border collie or aussie pup or full grown dog.
Agree with Lady's Human and Snakemama and Bonny. Whole situation is problematic, and breeding "for fun" when shelter dogs need homes really troubles me. That said, I'm not going to change someone's mind if they are hell-bent on doing something. But from all the comments on this thread, if this guy is looking for affirmation for his intentions he's in the wrong place. Just sayin'.
BTW, before a visitor reads this train wreck and gets the wrong impression about the forum, we have had RESPONSIBLE breeders here and welcomed them. If you've done your genetic testing, genealogy, ad nauseum, and want to breed dogs to improve the strains, no problem.
There are plenty of pets waiting for homes in shelters. I'm not biased against breeds (okay, there is ONE breed I have issues with, and it's not pitties), however, I prefer labs and lab mixes........then took one of those evil, unstable pitties home from the shelter after she impressed the heck out of me with the kids.
I hear you Lady's Human and no prob with Forum at all, just with this particular case/poster and motivation behind his interest in breeding.
Agreed, I always looked forward to updates from a certain person who bred lovely Belgian Shepherds...carefully, with a thorough knowledge of what she was doing, and the help of other people in the breed. :)
Originally Posted by Lady's Human
Exactly who I was thinking of, anyone heard from her lately? Her dogs are gorgeous.
I'll go nudge her on Facebook! With two kids now and a recent litter of puppies ... she's been busy! :)
Originally Posted by Lady's Human
I've been summoned... Lolol.
Sounds to me like you're really not that much into 'breeding,' but rather "studding out." Therefore, you do avoid a huge amount of the responsibility. As a reputable stud owner, you'll be expected to perform at least the minimal amount of genetic health tests for the breed. In border collies, you'll need a minimum of hips & eyes tested and certified. Your vet may not have experience with x-raying hips in the proper position for OFA; You may need to search for a radiologist. Average price for hips (without elbows) is in the $300-500 area; Some are significantly more, and some less. This will need to be done no earlier than 2 years of age. Obviously a failing grade from OFA would immediatly take him out of breeding, I hope. Currently OFA's statistics show the border collie as having an 8% dysplastic rate. These numbers are terribly skewed, as the majority of x-rays showing moderate to severe dysplasia are apparent enough, at least to the vet, that they are rarely submitted to OFA... Meaning the affected rate could be significantly higher than 8%, so, testing should always be done. Obviously, you'll want to find a breeder who tests the hips on their dogs as well. You're better off to have at least 4-5 (or more) generations of completely x-rayed dogs.
Then you'll need the Optigen test for CEA/CH. It's $180 plus whatever blood draw fees and shipping fees apply from your vet. It'll tell you if your dog is a carrier or clear -- unless of course,both parents are clear, in which case your dog will be clear by parentage and you won't need to test... or, if the parents were not tested and were both not known to be clear by parentage, you'd also be testing to see if your dog is affected, which hopefully it wouldn't be. It's also good idea to do yearly OFA eye checks(formerly was usually known as CERF tests) to also check for less common issues, like PRA. These usually run around $50-80, and then the certification fees are only about $8.
You'll also need to do a brucellosis test before each breeding (and require this for the female as well). These are about $60-100, unless you're lucky enough to have a vet who does in-house testing -- which isn't likely, but then you're more likely to spend between $30-60.
Also, you'd need to keep a good eye out for any potential seizure activity in your dog. Since epilepsy and EIC (exercise induced collapse) are not uncommon in border collies, it's wise to keep an eye out for these diseases... and obviously keep any affected dogs out of the gene pool. Since epilepsy is often a late-onset issue, many breeders wait until the dog is older before breeding. So, you might find that a responsible breeder may not even be interested in using your dog at stud until he is 6+ years of age.
Then of course, you need to think up some contract terms, so that in the event that your dog produces some hereditary issue that affects some/all of the puppies and costs the female owner a great deal of money that you aren't sued, so that the female owner isn't out an entire stud fee if there are no puppies produced or your male is unknowingly sterile, etc etc...Not to mention what happens if a female is injured or lost in your care? I know a breeder who had two females come to her for breeding, and the male attacked and killed both of them. When I sent a female away for breeding, she wasn't quite ready to breed and scaled the stud owner's ten foot fence. Might have lost her forever. What if you accidentally let another male get to her? I've seen that happen plenty of times. Males jump 10 foot fences, they chew through drywall, they bend open chainlink to get to a female in heat -- best make sure it's your male destroying your property to get to the female, and not your neighbor's dog down the road. ;-) You also have to learn how to properly hold a female so she isn't injured (though personally you should worry more about your male, as penis injuries are quite common -- in dogs they are a bone, and easily broken by an unwilling female). The last two stud services I did, the females needed to be muzzled and held in place, or my male would have been injured in both cases -- and us (the people) holding the female! Avoid being bitten. ;-)
Become well versed in AI's (artificial insemination). If your dog can't get the job done, you'll have to get it done for him. No point in making someone spend the money on shipping/driving their female to you and wasting a heat cycle for nothing. Best to make an appointment with a repro vet (you may have a hard time finding one in your area, so expect to travel if need be) and learn how to collect and what equipment you'll need to buy. Of course, you could just have the vet do it for you, but many male dogs are not comfortable having the vet collect for AI's. My male certainly isn't. In the event that a tie can not occur, and the female has been sent to you (owner not available), you should also become well versed in reading progesterone numbers... As it's most likely the female owner will expect you to run the female back and forth and do the AI when the progesterone says the female is at her most fertile point. If you don't have a repro vet on hand to help translate -- KNOW the numbers.
Become well versed in pedigrees/lines. So that you know the strengths of your male's pedigree, and whether or not it will compliment the female's. Not to mention, you'd best know what health issues are lurking behind your male, so you don't unknowingly combine two high risk pedigrees. The male is almost ALWAYS blamed for whatever health issues arise in offspring, so it's wise that you only combine what you believe will produce healthy offspring, lest you tarnish your male's reputation, your replutation, and his breeder's reputation. Even a dog with OFA Excellent hips can produce entire litters of dysplastic puppies. Which dogs in the pedigree are epilepsy producers? Which ones produced EIC? Which ones died early of cancer? Etc.
Now -- seeing as how you're buying from a reputable breeder, the dog would almost definitely be co-owned with the breeder anyways.... As most breeders will not outright sell breeding dogs to novice breeders. And therefore, they will most likely be the ones to make all the breeding decisions for you. Still, it's best to know what pedigree you've gotten yourself into.
As far as what to expect with owning an intact male. I currently have two adult intact males. One is inexperienced, and uncharacteristically good with all dogs (intact males even), however he can't be in my house without a belly band -- he tries to mark everything. The other is experienced -- he hates most other intact males. He lets it be known. At shows, this is a huge pain in the butt. With females in heat all over the place, he can be quite snarky with dogs who are 20 feet away from him. If a female nearby is near ovulation, he howls constantly. 3am wakeup call every morning. ;-) Every bark turns into a pathetic howl. The neighbors aren't too terribly fond of it. He rubs his nose and face on his crate door and the fence until he has open wounds. I have to keep him confined for the most part during these times. He is fine in the house during normal months, until he's either stressed about a female in heat nearby, or stressed because he can't eat my other male, in which case every now and then he'll mark in protest. Had to scrub my recliner the other day. Oh -- and then I accidentally let my new male in the house without a belly band, and within 5 minutes he proceeded to mark in 6 different areas in my house. These are training issues -- not nessecarily 'intact male' issues, but as a self-admitted lazy trainer, I know how much easier it would be to own a neutered dog, and I don't even suffer from males who destroy everything to get to a female (yet -- knock on wood).
As far as rescue -- maybe your area is different, but in Canada we have a HUGE amount of BC's in rescue. People think they want a smart family dog, until their dog is chasing/nipping their children, going neurotically insane at 'moving lights' coming from the livingroom window, running back and forth barking at the window at the cars driving by, and wearing a path down the fenceline for the same reason. So another thought you may want to ask yourself is, what TYPE of border collie do you want? There is a shift in thought between breeders who breed for different things. You say your dog is 'in standard' but looking at the photo, to me this looks little like the 'in standard' border collies that I see at the shows. Is 'pretty,' what you're going for? Because I haven't heard much about temperament or working ability from you, but rather looks. In which case (show bred) you might have an easier time selling puppies to active families -- but you could also end up with unhappy people who buy the dog for high levels of competition, not to mention being hated and ridiculed in the much larger world of working border collie enthusiasts who despise show-bred dogs. And, if your dog is a show bred dog and advertised for stud, you'll almost certainly be expected to show the dog to it's championship. Showing is expensive and can be disappointing at times.
Lots to think about. There is no fun invloved. I love the 'idea' of breeding my males! I love hearing about the resulting puppies! My stud dog had 9 puppies born yesterday. After the 'fun thoughts' were over, I am now overcome with worry at the thought of helping place NINE working bred puppies. Not an easy task. Of course, it's technically not my responsibility, but what kind of stud owner would I be if I didn't want HIS puppies ending up in perfect homes? I want the best for them! So I will work my butt off to help the breeder find homes because her waiting list is not long enough to cover 9 puppies. Having females here for breeding is NOT fun. I don't particularily become enthused at the thought of muzzling an uncooperative female, trying to find a good spot to "boost" my short male (poor Tandem is going to get a complex) "help" him enter (and get covered in disgusting stinky semenal fluids at the same time) stressing at wondering why he's taking his time (can he not figure it out??? Do I have to AI??? NOOO I do NOT want to do dirty things to my dog, and then insert plastic things into the female's girly parts -- ick ick ick), and then being stuck in place for half an hour bent over while we wait for them to untie... And do this once a day, or once every second day... I've had females do 8 breedings, 6 breedings... And then you get to listen to the howling for days until the female goes home. No it's not fun at all, and no you don't make any money. You might make enough to cover dog food for a few months, if you're really lucky. If you're counting the time spent, don't bother, because you'll realise you're definitely not getting paid for that time. But I love my breed, I have 'different' lines that help to fill a niche in a very small gene pool, and I want to better my breed! So I do it.
Hope this helps! It's a lot to think about.
Thanks so much, Jordan! That is perfect - and what anyone should know before they think of breeding their dog!
Now we just need a picture of one of your gorgeous pups! ;) Whenever I see a Belgian I think of you!
Here are three of the last bunch (Tandem/Fidji) at 7 weeks. Orange girl who is in a show/performance/breeding home in WA, Blue boy (who I still have with me -- oops! Needs a performance home!), and Green boy, my pick co-owned show male who tragically died due to a drug reaction at his new home in PA. Still having a really tough time with it.
The individual shot is my Blue boy. He's almost 12 weeks now, but I'll keep him as long as it takes to find his perfect home. He is the only one that really reminds me of his sire.
No photos yet of the NINE puppies just whelped in WA yesterday! :eek: Tandem's largest litter yet.
Oh, good gracious, he is ski adorable! Got that stance down already! Give him a kiss from me, please! :)
Originally Posted by wolfsoul