separation anxiety???

Please, I need advice! I adopted a dog about mid July. She is a border collie/black lab mix, and is 3 years old. I don't know her history as she was a stray at a shelter. For the first month, I went to work everyday and she was a very good dog at home- only once did she have an 'accident' on the carpet. Also no chewing, etc. I was then laid-off from my job (early Aug.). Now I am home a lot and take her with me when I leave as much as I can. The problem is this: When I have to leave and absolutely CAN'T take her, even if it is an hour or two, I come home to her having 'done her duties' on the carpet. I always make sure she goes outside to do so before I leave, so I know she is not being made to wait too long. She has also started doing some chewing that she never did before. She is a dog that follows me everywhere, even inside the house. She has to be in the same room with me all the time. She has a crate that she sleeps in during the night next to the bed (we have cats that run around and she likes to chase). I don't really want to put her in a crate all the time when I leave, since she is in there at night, but I have had people say it would be fine..........The main thing I want to understand is if this is maybe separation anxiety, and what I could do about it, or is it something else? It is puzzling to me because she was fine at first when I was still going to work everyday. Maybe she is just getting spoiled by my being home, etc. so much? ANY ideas &/or suggestions would be welcome, because I don't know what to do and I Love her a lot!

yorkster...
The only thing I can say FOR SURE is to not
listen to anybody that says"it would be fine'
to leave your dog in the crate when you have
to leave.(If she stays in a crate at night)
There are experienced behavior people here at Pet Talk who can give you a more detailed answer to your problem.This problem is very
solveable. Crateing to much won't help..
Good Luck to you in finding the right
answer...

What we did when we first got Simba, was he stayed in his cage while we were gone at school and work, and he was out 24\7 when we were home.... I think its is fine to keep them in the cage, i always left a snack in there with him but never leave a bone (it could become soft and they could choke and u would never know) And to keep him occupied we kept a mirror between the wall and his cage, he would sit thre for hours staring at the mirror looking at himself! We also played with him a while befor we left, so he wouyld calm down and want to sleep, but now he is such a good boy his cage is collapsed and under my bed and he stays out 24\7!

Yorkster, I just read your profile and you have 2 cats and 1 dog, just like me! :) Our dog is a standard poodle, 8 months old. She has been housebroken for many months now and as soon as we felt confident that there would be no more potty mistakes she was allowed to sleep in our bed at night. You mention that she loves to be with you wherever you are, so I really doubt that she would have an accident overnight if left loose in your bedroom. Our Bella never leaves the bedroom at night because she wants to be where we are too. If the kitties are a problem you might consider temporarily shutting the door until some sort of bedtime routine has been established. Most likely once your dog is asleep the kitties will have a little peace and feel free to do their nighttime roaming without fear of being chased. :) I actually never had to close the bedroom door and my cats quite often come sleep on the bed beside her, once they know she is "out like a light." :D

During the day we have to crate her if no one is going to be home. This is just because she still occasionally gets "into trouble" with her chewing, although we are even seeing improvement there. Since I only work part-time she is never in the crate for extended periods of time during the day and usually only 3-4 days per week. The minute someone is home she is out and free!

Not knowing your dog's history regarding cats is probably a bit of a worry to you. That is where maybe I have had an easier time of it. Bella was only 8 weeks old when she came to live with us so she grew up with the cats. Also, the cats had lived previously with dogs so we felt confident that there would be a peaceful co-eexistence.

I am not very knowledgeable about separation anxiety, although I know it is a real thing that dogs experience. Aly, one of our Pet Talk friends, has had some experience with that with her poodle, Reece. Fortunately with much patience he is now over that hurdle. Hopefully Aly will see this thread and be able to help you out there. Aly, any thoughts??

I would start by putting her in her crate while you are away and leaving her out at night. Maybe babygate the bedroom off with her in it. I was the exact opposite when I got Shaianne, I wanted her in the crate when I was gone and not at night. She did very well crated.

There was a thread just last week on separation anxiety which Aly and myself addressed in detail. It was:

How will I break my dog from me leaving the house? http://petoftheday.com/cgibin/ultima...c&f=2&t=000209

You can refer to that thread for extensive updates on separation anxiety and some things you can do to hopefully correct the situation.

[ September 20, 2001: Message edited by: Dixieland Dancer ]

We crate two of our dogs when we are away from home, but because of my husband's work schedule, they are rarely left alone for more than 4 hours at a time.
At night, we either close our bedroom door or put a baby gate in the doorway.
All four dogs don't mind going into their crates, but we like the idea of them being able to stretch out a little more and relax at night. (they are often belly-up and all stretched out during the night - in Buddy's case, that's about six feet!)
We have found crating to be a wonderful technique. Just don't give any food-type products that the dog can choke on, such as bones, rawhides, etc. If you give a kong, only stuff it with smooth substances, like craemy peanut butter, fat-free cream cheese, or liverwurst. Also, take you dog's collar off when you crate him. If the dog gets stressed and bangs around inside the crate, it can get its license/tags stuck between the bars - a serious strangulation hazard.
Good luck!

Hi yorkster, you're absolutely right that this is seperation anxiety and it was triggered when she got used to being around you all the time. Refer to the post Dixieland Dancer showed you and that will offer some great tips.

I think an important thing for you to do is be aloof with her while you are training her out of it. I know its hard! I had to be aloof with my Reece baby from the minute I brought him home and it nearly killed me! It will be worth it though if you won't have to worry about seperation anxiety anymore. Try not to let her follow you from room to room when you are home. Maybe give her a stuffed kong or something really great in the kitchen or another room. If she tries to take it to the room where you are, take it away. Only allow her to have it if she's in the kitchen alone. You may want to use baby gates to help you with this. Also try the ignoring her 10 minutes before you leave and after you get home.

I know this is one of the hardest things to deal with (been through it twice this year!), but if you stick with the training, you should have great results. Be sure to look at that other post too, as it goes into more detail. Good luck!

Thanks everyone for your advice- I'm going to start letting my dog (Scout) sleep next to the bed. Her Crate is next to the bed too, but I don't think she thought of it as being 'with' us. So now it's crate when we are gone, sleep with us at night. I will have to figure something out to do about the cats, since they can get the door open. Next I will take your suggestions about keeping cool & firm when I go to leave and return home- that is going to be a tough one!!! One more question: is it okay for her to sleep on the bed?

Yorkster,
If you only knew the can of worms you just opened up with that question! LOL There are many differing opionions on that subject and some of them are quite passionate, mine included!

Both my dogs sleep on the bed and I love every moment of it. I miss them when they are not there!

However, that being said we need to consider the problem you are having with separation anxiety. Until you get this under control you need to make the dog know you are Alpha (leader of the pack) and that you are not going to abandon him. Your pup needs to learn to be content by its self before you can invite it to sleep with you. Take the measures discribed above by letting the dog have "time alone" while you are near but don't make big fusses over him. Make him sleep off the bed for the time being. Set up a comfortable place that is the dogs alone and let him stay there until you think the problem is better. It may take a couple of months but that is better than having the problem forever. Once he does okay when you are not around you can start out gradually to invite the dog onto the bed if that is what you want.

Carrie,
I know you are cringing at this advice. :eek: But I did recommend not sleeping in the bed for awhile! :D LOL

Ok.....I'll start having her sleep next to the bed this weekend- maybe I should get a dog bed? I have been working at being more firm with her about stuff. She is also just started obedience classes, which I hope will work. My husband is a problem though sometimes- he lets her get away with even more than I do! I doubt he will change much though, but I guess it's okay since I'm the one that is with her most of the time and takes her to classes. I get the feeling that my dog is also kinda.....I don't know what the word would be but the closest I can think of is angry, and maybe more like frustrated. Yesterday I was gone for several hours (school & B.day shopping) and could not take her with me. When I got home, I played ball with her for awhile. That is usually when she 'does her duties'. Well, she went potty, but about 10 minutes after coming in the house, she did a doo-doo on the carpet in the living room! I was in the other room and didn't catch in the act. Why would she do that? She had just been outside!

It seems like the advice you are getting is literally all over the board. First, what I would like to say is to look it all over and then stay tuned in to your dog. You know her personality better than any of us who have not seen her or lived with her. Not all dogs are alike and different things seem to work with different dogs. Now that I've said that, I'm going to proceed with my own advice, with the qualification that I am not an expert.

I think your dog would benefit from a fairly consistant routine. I would start by making sure you and she have some special times together....say maybe a walk in the morning and playtime in the afternoon. Be consistant and at approximately the same time of day, so she knows that these are her special times that she can count on. They don't have to be really long, maybe 20 - 30 minutes. She will also be getting her exercise and you can work on getting her used to associating a word with urinating and pooping. I have a dog who literally "forgets to go" while she is outside, so before she comes in, I can ask her, "Did you go potty?" and if she hasn't gone, she will turn around and "go" because she knows what I am talking about.

As noted above, there are those who do not believe you should let a dog sleep on the bed. Well, there are those of us who believe that unless the dog is exhibiting a very dominant personality, sleeping on the bed is one of the most rewarding pleasurable experiences for both the human and the dog. Your dog has NOT been sleeping on the bed, so this problem cannot be blamed on that. In my humble opinion, your dog could get more of that together time she craves and will be denied during the day, at night.

Some dogs seem real comfortable going to their crate for short periods of time during the day. If that is the case, then use it. If not, and she barks and seems agitated when you put her in her crate and you walk out the door, then I would feel using the crate would be exacerbating the problem. I frankly do not like the idea of using a crate for any length of time, i.e. while you are gone all day to work. In lieu of that, is there a kitchen area where she could be somewhat confined so she not get into as much as she could in the whole house? My ultimate solution for a dog with separation anxiety is not always practical...it's another dog! Please keep up on what is going on with you and Scout.

That is funny Rachel that you brought up about your dog that 'forgets' to go.....I think that is part of what happens with my dog. Everytime I open the back door to let her out, or go out with her, she thinks 'ball-time!' - either that or 'beach-time!' She gets sooo exited and won't do anything except BEG me to play with her. Sometimes she will stop and do her duties while we are playimg fetch (if she has to go REALLY bad, like in the morning), but otherwise it seems like all she can think of is playing ball! I have tried saying 'did you go potty?' and then taking her to her spot. If she goes, I say 'good potty!' But, so much of the time she does not go, and just stands there or jumps around wanting to play. I am not working right now, and go to school a couple nights a week, so she gets plenty of time with me. I take her on a run &/or play ball with her at least 3 times a day. She does not seem to mind going in her crate, as long as it is only for short periods of time. Last night I had her sleep next to the bed (no crate) for the first time, and she did fine. The only problem I have with that is that we have to shut the bedroom door because she will chase the cats who are up running around a lot during the night (one is 9 month old kitten still). I miss having my kitties in there with me, but the cats and dog have not worked it out yet- I know that will come with time. Either way, she will spend less time in her crate than before, which was most of the night when we slept (the crate was right next to the bed, so I thought she felt close to us, but maybe I was wrong). Anyway, I am hoping that sleeping with us, and not in her crate, along with some obedience classes and a more regular routine, will help. Thanks to everyone for their advice- I'll keep you posted on how it goes in the next few weeks.

I'm very sorry, I have only just caught up with this thread.
As you can see there are many ways that people think of their dogs and what their dogs are telling them. Many also misunderstand the classical terminology that is attatched to dog behaviour - the most common misunderstanding is the use of the word dominant.
Your dog is doing it's very best to take on the dominant role in the house as you are giving it signals that you are unable to cope with the role. It therefore believes that it is responsible for your wellfare at all times and when you leave it alone it is unable to take care of you in the way that it thinks it should. To try and cope with it's panic it is marking it's territory VERY well in an attempt to make the home safer and better protected from the outside world. It is chewing and destroying furniture to further release it's feelings of stress and panic.
The only thing you can so to help your dog is to take away the responsibility by becoming a more dominant animal than your dog is. Your dog has taken on it's role because every pack needs a leader to survive as a pack - as nobody else has taken the role your dog feels it has to. It has no idea how to carry out this role in a world of humans.
I suggest you get a behaviourist to help you as soon as you can - crating your dog will confine it's panic and worry not end it.

Allowing your dog to sleep on your bed will add another, very strong, indication to your dog that you are confirming it's belief that you see it as the leader.

Hi Carrie!...I know you explained this before, but I'm still puzzled (what a surprise THAT is! :D )as to why the dog is alpha if it sleeps on your bed? The only time Cody will jump on my bed is if I'm NOT in it, ie: getting dressed, cleaning... or he sometimes naps there during the day. Luckily there's no room for the both of us anyway (he'd smother me)Would Cody still be considered alpha in this situation? You know it's taken ME a long time to assume the alpha role and I'd like to keep it that way.

And as long as you are explaining, I have a question as well. How do a pack of wolves in the wild sleep? Do they sleep together or by themselves? Does the Alpha wolf sleep with the rest of the pack or off by himself in a spot he designates as the best?

Alpha status is really a straightforward thing to a dog as it universally understood and accepted. People find it very hard to grasp the concept and even harder to put it into practice for, I believe, two reasons. The first is the way we view our pets - we all know that we have domesticated wolves living with us. That bit is easy to understand. What muddles us up is that we are suprised by the intelligence and individual character of the dog and we fall in love. This would be fine if we continued to see the dog as a dog and treat it as a dog (wolf) but humans find this very hard. Instead we start to treat the dog as part human and give him, for instance, a bit of cheese as a treat when we are making a sandwich for ourselves, or encourage the dog to sleep on the bed with us. Dogs are dogs - that is it - that is as hard as dog training gets. There is no other concept that has to be remembered. Dogs don't think like humans or talk to each other like humans or understand our actions or gestures as another human would because they are dogs. Dogs can not be expected to take care of themselves on a busy street because they don't understand the human world as a human does.
Which brings me on to the second reason - terminology. Words like dominance, submission and aggression are very strong and emotive words when humans use them. Every one of them is linked to violence, fear, danger and threat. When used correctly in the context of behaviour they have very different meanings (usually...there are exceptions but let's not confuse the issue now). Many people find the idea of being dominant towards their dog a very difficult thing to deal with as they are imagining forcing, making the dog do what I say or hurting the dog to make it comply. Many trainers are also guilty of misunderstanding the subtle submissive gestures given by their dogs and are not happy until the dog is flat on it's back.

In the wild the pack will sleep where the Alpha pair decides they can sleep. If it is cold that may be in a heap that looks like a jumble - it isn't! Every member knows exactly where the limits are and do not overstep them. If you allow your dog to sleep with you because you and he both enjoy the closeness you are telling your dog that it has an equal rank, status, level of dominance as you when it is bed time. This is fine if this is the only time your dog gets this message and you are happy with it. It is not fine if you are having any other problem with your dog as it will confuse the dog and make ironing out the other problem more stressful and difficult for you both.

By allowing Cody to sleep on your bed when you are not there you are telling him that he is second to you only. That is also fine if you don't mind, if he leaves the bed EVERY time you ask him to and if everyone else in the house doesn't have a problem with the dog. But I would suggest that second place is still very high for a dog that has had a hard time trusting you to lead him.

Phew!!!! You should know by now that if you ask I will answer.....fully!
Hope that has answered your questions without putting you both to sleep!!!!

Carrie,
If you have caught your breath so to speak,
I have two questions,please.
1: My dog Buddy will sleep in my bed during
wintertime only and after I have already gone to sleep.(I wake to find him at the foot of
the bed).Is this a dominence issue?
2: Are separation anxiety issues always
linked to dominence issues in some way?
Thanks very much, Lizbud.

Yes it is a dominant behaviour but bear in my that your dog is only taking advantage of a situation - it is not challenging you for overall control here. If the dog totally believed the relationship between you and it was as you see it the dog would not get on the bed. It may even be that you are welcoming the dog in your sleep or, more to the point, your dog believes that you are welcoming it. Maybe you turn your back on him when he gets up so signalling that his prescence is not objectionable.

I have never come across a case of seperation anxiety that was not linked to the dog's status in the eyes of the dog. I have also never had a case that was not eased by taking the responsibility off the dog of being the leader. The only dogs I don't consider cured of their anxiety are the ones that have improved so much in their owners eyes that the owner is over the moon, happy as can be but refuse to go any further with a dog that they consider cured. The most infuriating thing I have heard on many occasions is when I comment on a behaviour the dog is still showing and the owner says, "Oh well, she's always done that!"

Carrie,
Thanks for your comments.I believe you are
absolutly right with both answers.I could
make Bud get off the bed 'if I wanted to',
but it has never bothered me,so was not an
issue with me.Just wanted to know why he
would want to sleep in the bed only in the
winter? (Maybe he was cold on the floor?)
Only time I shooed him off was once when I
rolled over and came 'nose to nose' with
him sharing my pillow.That was a bit much.
I think most people want to 'reasure' a
anxious dog as we would a person,and that
only makes the dog more anxious.You're right,
it's a communication problem between people
and dogs. My dog is very 'pushy' and I work
on that everyday.It will always be a work in
progress.. Thanks again.

Carrie, you know me, I'm impossible with Daisy. When she first slept with me, when I came out of the bathroom she would be on my pillow. I did not allow that, she had to go on her own pillow,(I know that sounds crazy)
She kept trying and I kept telling her no.
Now she accepts the fact that she cannot go on my pillow and she has to stay on her side of the bed (I know I know it still sounds crazy) I have really been working with her in other ways, when I call her to me I make sure she comes, I have told her no bark when she is at the window and she is doing fairly well. Do you think there is a time that even when a dog sleeps with you that they will ever consider you Alpha? When Don calls her she runs to him, when I call her she takes a detour to come to me, do you think she considers me a littermate? I'm serious!
Are there just cantankerous dogs?
Jackie

Jackie, I am afraid I feel much the way you and Rachel do about the Big Bed. Bella has been sleeping in our bed since she was potty trained. :) I don't think it's crazy about you wanting Daisy on her own pillow. As I was reading that I was laughing but it was only because you were apologizing for sounding crazy. I didn't think you were crazy at all. I think you are doing better with Daisy than you realize because she does respect your wishes about the pillow!

As far as her listening to Don better than you, I think a man's voice sometimes carries more weight. Sometimes I try to change my voice to be deeper just to see. :) Bella will come to me just as quickly when I call, but there are other areas where she will obey hubby more quickly than me. For instance if she is about to do something naughty and she sees him close by she will not even try it. What comes to mind is the day she was about to steal a sock out of the dryer and saw him coming and dropped it on the floor. If he hadn't walked by she may or may not have dropped it if I told her to, depending on her mood. :rolleyes:

That is funny Pam- in my house it is just he opposite. My hubby is more the softy (EXCEPT when it comes to potty, etc. in the house, which I have been hiding from him). I will walk into the L.room and she is halfway on the couch, and I'll say 'please don't let her on the couch' and he will say something like 'I didn't ask her up, she just did it on her own'.......meanwhile he is petting her and saying what a good dog she is. I do think that I have finally got it through his head that it is wrong and only making the problem worse. On another note, I think I have had a breakthrough on the problem: 4 days since a potty/poop in the house, and she is sleeping next to the bed succesfully. She still will climb up on the bed if I am not in the room, but jumps right down when I walk in, so she KNOWS better now. I have also been working really hard at being more firm and 'alpha', and it seems to be paying-off! Keeping my fingers crossed...........

Jackie, you know how I feel about Daisy in your bed!!!!!!
Until you have control in all other areas you are making life so much harder for yourself and the dogs than it needs to be. Until everyone is 100% sure of their place and safety in that place and as a pack Daisy feel that she has no obligation or desire to listen to you. Your dog's willingness is tightly bound to how it sees your and it's status - it will want to, even have an instinctive need to please a leader but has no time, incentive or need to indulge the whims of lesser members of the pack. By allowing Daisy to sleep with you before this is established properly you are giving confused signals to your dog that she can only interpret as she would if they came from another dog. She is not convinced that you are able to take care of the pack because of your confused language about the subject (to her) and as a pack needs to be lead she feels she has no other option than try to do the job herself.

No, I don't believe there are cantankerous dogs (although there are some with neurological problems that can't be helped- that is a totally different subject), only confused dogs forced into a leadership role that they aren't able to cope with and don't want.

Pam, the way you describe Bella dropping the sock she was stealing proves that it is not his voice that she is respecting more than yours but his attitude. His actions when he is around tells her that he is totally in control of the environment and that is all she needs to know to feel and show respect and a willingness to do what he asks. This is dominance in action.

Yorkster - I'm so glad that you are having such good results. If your husband doesn't understand set him a challenge. Bet him that he can't ignore the dog for two days - totally. If he can he will see a huge difference in the dog and you will be grateful enough to......( you fill in that part on your own!!). If he can't ..........(another bit for you). Even he only manages three or four hours he should see the dog's perception change and much happoer and more relaxed dog emerge.
Well done and keep it up!!!

Did I miss anyone?!!

[ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: carrie ]

Hmmmmm......that is a great idea Carrie! He is pretty competitive, and I have 'bet' him before on things like helping around the house when company is coming, i.e. 'I bet you won't be able to get your computer room cleaned-up by Friday'. It works most of the time as long as I don't do it too often. I'll present him with a challenge as soon as I think of the reward...........Thanks Carrie, you have helped a lot and cleared some things up for me. We will see how the next few days go. Today and tomorrow will be a test because I have school and a seminar to go to- it's more common for her to 'act up' when I have to be gone, and she has to stay home.

Carrie, I hate to tell you this but I think we are hopeless LOL It's time to confess, when I look at her big brown eyes rolling at me, I tell her O.K. Daisy you can be Alpha tonight, but I'm Alpha tomorrow night LOL. I told her Carrie says you can't sleep in the Big Bed with me and she says to me, Who is Carrie?LOL
And I say Carrie is an expert with dogs, and Daisy says to me the only dog around here is Perry and he don't sleep in the Big Bed so what's the beef?LOL
Where is Pam and Rachel when I need them? LOL
Love Ya Carrie
Jackie

Right here Jackie! I wasn't going to comment anymore having stated my opinion, but since Daisy needs help, I came up with this from the book *Good Owners, Great Dogs, A Training Manual for Humans and Their Canine Companions* by Brian Kilcommons and Sarah Wilson. FAQ section contains the following
"Q. Is allowing my dog to sleep on the bed bad? A. If your dog is otherwise well behaved, it is not a bad thing to let him sleep on the bed. Tri is always on our bed. Caras comes up when invited. Piper prefers his dog bed. If you are single and hope not to be one day, don't let the dog sleep up there all the time. Insist that he wait until his is invited. Have him sit, then say 'OK up' and pat the bed. If he jumps up on his own, put him off and make him wait." So even the experts can have a different take on this topic.

The issue is really moot as far as I'm concerned because I would not give up sleeping with my dogs for the most well behaved, obedient, and subservient versions of these two that I could imagine. The pleasure of their company and their enjoyment of mine during our shared time in the bed in incalculable. For me, it is bliss.

[ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: RachelJ ]

Brian Kilcommons does not have a different view to this question to me - he has just put it in a much softer way. "If your dog is otherwise well behaved...." is exactly what I said. It should not, then, cause problems.

My apologies, Carrie, you did say that.

Carrie, I fear that I need Daisy more than she needs me and probably that is the problem. You are right I don't treat her as a dog, I treat her as my best friend. At our age we are in declining health and playing with her and Perry in the morning while we have our coffee is very beneficial. Our family thinks we are a little bonkers, we have photos of both of them all over. We already did the Mom and Dad thing and then we did the Grandma and Grandpa thing now for the first time in forty years we are doing our own thing.
I know deep in my heart a dog should be made to obey commands, do the things a dog should do and then I think of all the dogs in the shelters and if only I could save and help them all. Since we can't, the next best thing is giving Daisy and Perry all the love and comfort we can. Carrie, I truly do respect your knowledge and I know you are right, but at this time in our life, we would rather spend our time spoiling them than correcting them. I really do appreciate your input and it does help us to understand them and we try. You have been so wonderful and patient with everybody, you are a gem.
Jackie

Jackie, I think the world of you, I really do but earlier in this discussion I mentioned how people struggle with the meaning of dominance. Never once in this discussion have I said that play is a bad thing - it is, in fact one of the fundamental ways a dog learns. I have not mentioned giving corrections - you shouldn't until you are seen as the leader and then only in extreme conditions. All need for corrections vanishes when the dog understands that you are the leader - all you need do is give the dog signals that it understands the meaning of.
I am not trying to stop anyone enjoying play, cuddles or time with their dog. All I am asking people to do is take pressure off the dog to be something it can not ever be. By doing this you can spend more time doing enjoyable things with a happier, more relaxed and unstressed dog. There is no forcing, no corrections - you have a dog that does what you ask of it because it wants to, does not have the feeling that it has to protect you or your house from everybody and is less likely to react badly to strangers, both canine and human. It is an animal that has only to enjoy life with you and has no worries. Not one negative word needs to be uttered nor any physical force used.

Jackie,
I can relate!!! We are doing the mom and dad thing now (two boys age 25 and 11) and look forward to the grandma and grandpa thing but I'm sure we will always be doing the doggie thing! :D :D :D I sometimes let my dogs get away with small things but in the big things, I make sure I win so they keep it in perspective who is boss. I love sleeping with the pups and constantly hear from the 11 year old "How come you get to sleep with them but they don't want to sleep with me?" What can I say..... they just love the mama person :)

Carrie, I understand what you are trying to say, you know I don't know how dogs think, so I use words probably not very professional like correction etc, I know I will never be the Alpha with Daisy however she considers Don the Alpha and listens to him and comes to him when he calls, so I think she is o.k. and relaxed. You are exactly right in your directions, except there are people like me who look at their dogs as babies and I don't think you could ever change us, but we try. :D :D :D
Jackie

Hi to Carrie, Aly, Rachel, and everyone else who has responded to my questions. I hope you are all still reading this thread. It was a couple days ago that I said that I felt there was a breakthrough with my dog Scout. Well.......tonight she just went pee on the carpet! I am frustated! I guess I have two questions: #1. Can I still feel things are on their way to definate improvement since she had a relapse? I mean, it has been several days now, which is better than what it has been. Is it 'normal' for there to be some old behavior for a period of time? I have only been being firm and more alpha for aprox. a week now. How long is it reasonable to expect this to take? Right now I feel like I/We have failed, and I must still be doing something wrong. Or worse yet, that my dog is being especially BAD.
#2. The other question is that she keeps going back to the same spot(s). I have been using an enzyme type order & stain remover, but I know that sometimes it takes several applications (on carpet) to work completely. Is it possible that she thinks that maybe it is okay in those spots, because she can maybe still 'smell' urine there even though we can't? I have used that stuff before with my cats and it worked wonders. Is there something better?
Maybe I just worry too much, or am expecting too much too soon. Set me straight if I need it! Thanks everyone.

You have done a sterling job to change your dog's view of life in such a short space of time. She is no longer in a total panic about you every time you leave her sight - just imagine what a difference to her life that must make.
One accident.....paaah! So what? (try washing the spot with biological washing powder that you would use in your clothes washer)
Your dog is not BAD - just in a bad way.
Can I also say that this has not got a time limit, when you have taken the pressure off your dog it is important that you don't let old habits return.
I'm not sure what you mean by being firmer with her. It is yourself you need to be firmer with, not the dog. You need to be sure that you have no eye contact with the dog when you leave or enter a room and don't speak to her until she has been relaxed and settled for a few minutes. Then she must do something for you before you give her any attention - a simple sit is enough and then you can show her how pleased you are to see her. If she doesn't do as you ask simply move away from her and ignore her for a little longer. You must be totally convincing and totally calm. Ignore her if she asks for your attention until she has been calm and relaxed for a few minutes - then ask her to sit before she gets any fuss. That is all - no shouting, no getting angry and no forcing. It is her choice and if you can do this she will choose to relax quicker each time.

You dog is not BAD. She just doesn't understand yet 100% what you expect of her. You are seeing progress so be excited and not frustrated! Make sure when you take the dog out that you give a command such as "Go Potty" and praise like crazy when she does. If she has an ACCIDENT in the house and you see her, then quickly escort her outside and give the command. Chances are she has relieved herself enough not to have to go again but she will make the connection if you give the command and praise her enough.

You do not correct, yell, or punish the dog, especially if you do not see her in the act. This just instills anxiety in her and frustration in you! Make sure you give her plenty of opportunity to please you by making sure she goes out about 20 minutes after each meal, immediately in the morning, before bedtime, and several other times during the day. If you set her up for success then your job will be much easier.

Keep up the good work!!!!

I agree. Try to give your dog a specific routine, a schedule so to speak. This includes feeding and outside for potty. Try to keep the times as consistant as possible. That is, if you normally get up at 6 am, then do it even if there are days when you could sleep late. (Get up, let the dog out and then go back to bed, if you want to.) If this were my dog, I would accompany her outside and watch to make sure that she "goes" when she is out and then give her praise when she does. I know, I know, it is a pain in the butt, but it is a big help. The main thing is you don't want her to establish a habit of going in the house. There have been a lot of changes in this dogs life. First who knows what she went through in her previous environment, then there was the trauma of the shelter where maybe she HAD to relieve herself in her cage, then you took her home but were going to work, and then you were there and home with her and taking her everywhere with you and then you started to leave her again at varying times which she couldn't predict. So be patient with her and do not expect miracles overnight, but have faith that you and she can come to grips with a routine that is going to make her comfortable and secure. I know you spend a lot of time and play with her, but try to make this at a specific time of the day, so she can count on it as part of her routine.

In regard to the area she has chosen to go in the house, is this an out of the way place, like a dining room that is rarely used? If it is, then make sure that you use that room more. Play with her there, maybe sit and do your reading. Some dogs choose out of the way spots in the house as they don't feel it is as much a area where they live.

Please have confidence that this is a problem that will get better with your dedication and efforts which will help Scout to understand and feel secure.

[ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: RachelJ ]

Okay, thanks everyone- I feel much better now. I will also incorporate some of your suggestions into my routine. She was really good today! Left the neighbors dog on the other side of the fence alone (well, once she harrassed her), no potties on the carpet, and finally would 'shake' on command with NO treats to entice. She has known how to do that for awhile, but would only do it for treats before! She would look at my other hand to see if I had treats, and if not, would NOT shake. We are making progress!

Well, I'm about to add my two cents here. I am a believer in using crates for several types of discipline and when you just cannot trust the dog. Think of it as the dog's "room". Just as you would give a child his/her own room, the crate functions like that for the dog. I did not see what type of crate you are using and that could be a factor in what is happening. I seldom use the wire type of crates as they do not give the dog the "den" security that airline types do. The crate must be properly "fitted" to the dog as well. It should be long enough for the dog to lie down in with little extra room for "accidents"; one and a half times the adult body length is the standard we used at PetsMart.

I have a Jack Russell Terrier that goes into her crate during the day when I go to work and at night when I go to bed. Why? I don't trust her to not eat things or behave. She is fairly well adjusted otherwise. My JR mix almost never goes into a crate as she can be trusted to stay out of the trash, not potty on the floor, etc. She's also 12 years old! I have crated almost all my dogs as above until the age of about 1 year at which time they are usually more reliable, but have had a couple that could not be trusted not to get into the trash. We rarely had any problems about them going into their crates.

Obedience training will help establish you as the leader of the pack as she will learn to do as you say. That is part of what being the alpha is about. I am an advocate of postive reinforcement using treats to begin and working away from them. Also, one of the best things I got from Barbara Woodhouse's "No Bad Dogs" is the word "What". Use "What a good dog" or something similar when you praise her. Additionally, working on "tricks" adds to the image that the dog "has to do what you say". I had a dog that I taught several tricks to and then we ended up selling him to a show home, but everytime I say him, he would do all his tricks everytime I asked him. No treats, either! The trick to obedience work is using your "karate" voice. It must come from the diaphragm like a karate yell, but not as loud. Whenever you give her a command, feel it coming from the diaphragm and you will find that she will listen better. Yes, men have deeper voices and frequently will get a dog to obey better/faster. I saw that with several of my students. Firm up your voice and be CONSISTENT about commands. You and your hubby must use the same commands to mean the same thing all the time. Never put a question tone on the command, either. "Will you sit?" is less effective than "Sit!". Also, the more you can use one word commands, the quicker she will learn them.

Cleaning up after her, yes, use something like Simple Solution or Nature's Miracle and do not use a carpet cleaner that has ammonia in it. Guess what that smells like!

Bed - well, almost all mine have been allowed to sleep with me and we did not have "dominance" problems (and DO not have problems). Just now, the pup sleeps in her crate and the older dog sleeps wherever she likes. It's usually the cats that sleep with me (and one likes to sleep on top of me).

What it all boils down to is: consistent scheduling and commands and using the crate on an "as needed" basis. I have even crate trained my cats for purposes of transportation and when company comes that I prefer the cats not to get onto. Another note, whoever takes the dog to obedience class will become the "dominant" being in the dog's life. Be sure that you and your hubby both work with her on the obedience work and make sure you are working with her at least 15 minutes per day on the obedience. I read a book about obedience training that freaked me out. Can't recall the author, but she used to put her dogs on "long" downs for purposes of training. When I say "long" downs, I mean she advocated anywhere from one to three hours or more. That is not right from anyone's standpoint.

One last thing, I believe in the "stare-down". If your dog ever sits and stares at you, stare her down. In the wild, eye contact is a challenge and the one who looks away first is "submitting" to the "dominance" of the other. Oh, yeah, try to use a growly voice when "correcting" the dog. I use "no" on a long, drawn out, growly tone when I see the dog about to do something I won't approve of. I also use "Aaat" for some of the same reasons. All my dogs have learned what both terms mean and are really good at changing their minds when I use them. Well, my two cents turned into a dollar, but I hope some of this is helpful and hope no one of the other answerers is offended.