Amazing Step for Black Shepherd

Soon you are all going to kick me out of this Forum for bragging :-). My black shepherd thinks he is boss of the older Foxie. He was even food aggressive (very) at times. Today I was spying on them eating. He finished first then approached Foxie to eat hers. She barked at him (which is usually ineffective and aggravates him). BUT- on this occassion he stopped, dropped and calmly watched her eat. This is the strategy I use with him when he is aggressive except this time he did it alone. He was surprised when I barged out praising him excitedly with a treat!!!!!!!!!!! :-D

Mayissa, congratulations on your progress with Zorro! Well done and the best of luck. You could try setting up "accidental" meetings with people he doesn't know in the street. Get them to say hi to you and without any eye contact with Zorro offer him a treat. If you can do this often enough he will start to think of strangers as pleasant instead of threatening. Corrections are advisable for any growling.
Well done again and keep us up to date.


[This message has been edited by carrie (edited November 05, 2000).]

I am very impressed with your determination and the fact that you are not giving up on your work with this dog. Having a "difficult" dog myself although she is not aggressive, I still know what a challenge and how much hard work goes into working on problem areas. A lesser guardian would not be willing to go through all that it takes but you have made a commitment that stands out and will serve you and Zorro well. Patience is also a key in working with problem dogs. You have that as well. You also have an understanding of the seriousness of the problem and are not minimizing it. Zorro is very fortunate to have landed in your camp.

I don't know if anyone has ever mentioned this before but your dog needs to see you as Leader of the Pack. As women we have a hard time comprehending how to achieve that status. We enjoy the nurturing and adoring aspects of dog guardianship. Most men seem to know it instinctively. If an alpha dog doesn't see you as being in control of the situation, he or she sees it as a void that they must fill. The others on the board are more experienced and able to give you specific advice but this is my two cents worth, and I do think the neutering could help. I was glad to read that you had made that decision.

[This message has been edited by RachelJ (edited November 05, 2000).]

Carrie's suggestion about "setting up" a meeting with a stranger is probably a good idea, and one I should try with Honey, who has started growling and barking at strangers even when we are right there touching and talking with them. We experienced it yesterday when we took her for a walk. We were standing there talking to a friend, and when her boyfriend walked over to us, Honey went nuts. Besides being embarassing, it is a little frightening. She has never even snapped at anyone, but it does make me nervous to have her out in public. I'm going to try your trick, Carrie.

Thanks for your encouragement all!!! And yes I do adore Zorro :-). Carrie, your suggestion interested me. But can you just clarify this point:
"Get them to say hi to you and without any eye contact with Zorro offer him a treat."
Do you mean that I shouldnt maintain eye contact with Zorro, or for Zorro not to look at the "accidental" stranger?
By the way I have noticed that when I talk to strangers in the street he quietens down.

Mayissa,

I respect your dedication to Zorro. You really are trying and that's great. I don't really have any suggestions on how to help his aggression but the past posts are very helpful.

You probably already knew this, you seem to be knowledgeable, but just in case you didn't I'll tell you...it's very threatening for a dog to be looked in the eyes. When people approach you and Zorro, advise them to not look at Zorro, look around his face, not at it, and look down to the ground and talk calm, move slow, and use common sense and don't walk too quick towards him....let him discover them....and lots of praise when he does not act aggressively.

Good luck, I respect your commitment to him, it's a very challenging problem and it may take a LONG time to control but it sounds like you are well on your way.

Adoremydogs has got the concept, eye contact from a stranger the dog already perceives as threatening will heighten his anxiety. Get your "stranger" to openly show the treat, on the palm of the hand with the fingers facing slighty downwards, but not reach out to the dog. If the dog is a little hesitant to take the treat point it out to him and encourage him to take it. (He must be sitting calmly before the treat is offered.)
It's interesting that you say he calms as soon as you speak to someone. If you don't mind looking strange try walking along and saying, "Good morning" to everyone that passes. The dog will then understand that you see others as no threat to you or him and hill begin to respond in the same way. You will also be suprised how many people respond in a positive way to you! Remember to appear as relaxed as possible and for the record - you are doing a great job - keep it up.

Zorro may look wherever he likes at these meetings, you must ignore Zorro as much as is practicable and concentrate on the stranger and the stranger should only look at you.

Ok, Carrie, duh...I just didn't put 2 and 2 together..I noticed that when I say hello to people, (in my usual, cheerful voice of course) Cody's very calm, stays in a down position, if on the porch, or just keeps on walking (or sniffing) with no reaction. Of course that makes perfect sense, no threat, everything's OK, I'm safe...Thanks again for the wake up call.

Karen, I'm glad you have such success with Cody. I don't necessarily have that kind of success with Honey, but I'm going to try having a treat waiting for her in my pocket and see what I can accomplish. She loves Bil-Jac and I will invest in tons of it if it will work for her. Honey doesn't seem to care if I am comfortable or not! She is so suspicious, especially of men. I'm still working on it! http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/smile.gif

Logan, you KNOW I am far from perfect but I had heard on a training show that they can feel the tightness and pressure you put on a leash, even if it's the slightest hint of nervousness. So if I see people(and he loves to walk at night when it's dark)I either say "Good Boy, Let's go" or "This Way" and he may look at them for a second, then goes on sniffing. I try very very hard to hold the leash as loose as possible yet with the ability to grab on tighter. Believe me, I am fully awake and alert when I walk him. I'm not always successful-there are teenage kids on our block that ride bikes in groups or play football, basketball and also a school yard. They call him "lion dog" since his body looks like a lioness and they are petrified of him with good reason. Luckily he know most people on our block and ignores them cause they are suppose to be there but if you visit or deliver..it's barks away!

How redundant..of course it's dark at night! http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/biggrin.gif http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/biggrin.gif I meant as oppossed to dusk. Sometimes on weekends, he'll do a morning walk-rarely. He preys at night!! http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/biggrin.gif http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/biggrin.gif http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/biggrin.gif http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/biggrin.gif

Last night (and yes, Karen, it was dark :-) )
I took Zorro to the beach with a friend and his GSD. Zorro did not growl once, though he sniffed someone's bottom and they were frightened. It might be cos he is getter better, or the fact that we were a larger group. We crossed a poodle, and though Zorro was pulling (alot - man he is strong now!), he did not growl. Interesting hey? I will try the strategy with strangers in the street and the lack of eye contact. I think the whole neighbourhood knows me by now (and Zorro). I bet they think I am some rough *itch :-))), with the tone I need to use with ZOrro at times. The other night there were some children practicing dancing at a hall and Zorro sat and watched and growled. I did correct him but I couldnt help but laugh at his confused expression. He has never seen people dance before.

My big mistake was holding Cody back when we saw another dog as I wasn't sure of his reaction. He either pulls and barks or backs off. Even in puppy school he was accepting but didn't want puppy play or to be smelled or touched by another dog. We think he doesn't know he is one.. That's terrific you can take Zorro out with you. I take Cody to friend's houses but he'll run and sit by the door, or run back into the car in unfamilar surroundings. Hmmmm. Around our area he's very territorial. So great you're getting to the problem early!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mayissa:
We crossed a poodle, and though Zorro was pulling (alot - man he is strong now!), he did not growl. I bet they think I am some rough *itch :-))),>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>

Mayissa you sound like you are doing great with Zorro. Being a little bit of a *itch
might be necessary.

IF Zorro still pulls you when passing
animals, people, or growls etc. You might
consider going back to basics.
This will give you a dog that heals
instead of lunging or forging ahead.
(Back to bare basic of training)
If you try this method you must follow this
to a T. I have never had a dog fail with
this type of training only the trainers.

equipment you will need,
which you probably have:

Properly fitted choke chain. measurement
2" longer than your dogs neck measurement.
Size links depends on the size of your dog.
You should never have to use a EXL 4mm link. (even when GSD is full grown).
6' leather leash with swivel snap.
15' lung line.

Lesson 1 is the foundation for basic obedience.
(getting your dogs attention)

Rules:
Confine dog for 1/2 hour in a small
area before each training session. (a crate works great if you have one.) (leave the dog alone).
Do one 30 minute or two 20 minute training
sessions per day 6 days per week.
(NO VERBAL commands, DON'T tug on the line. Just walk.
If your dog comes to your side give him a scratch behind the ear for Praise. (NO VERBAL praise)

Days 1,2,3: Dog will be allowed 15' of freedom for the first 3 days on the lunge line.
lesson for day 1-3.
1) Confine dog for 1/2 hour.
2) attach lunge line to begin lesson after
confining dog.
3) Walk from one side of an area, than back
to the other end. (approx. 50 feet)
and than stand still.
Repeat this pattern through-out the session.
4) IF the dog tries to bolt or run beyond
the 15', turn around and take off in the opposit direction. (this will Jerk the dog
and force him to pay attention to you.)
5) If dog refuses to move at all, take off running straight ahead for a few feet,
never picking up the line keeping it loose.
6) At the end of the training session
drop the lunge line to the ground and give a verbal command of "OK"
(Cool Down): Stepping on the lunge line, your dog is now
allowed to movie up to 15' for 5 minutes.
IF the dog tries to bolt pick up the lunge
line and do a few minutes of more work out.
Than repeat dropping the line again for 5 minutes.
After 5 minutes of Cool down, return dog to its normal living area.
Since Zorro is already trained, and you
need to work where their are some
distraction, try training in a Park. (not a lot of distraction for the first 3 days.)
DAY 4-5: (add more distraction)
Confine dog for 1/2 hour, than continue with
the same lessons as above making shure to now run in the opposite direction if the dog gets more than 5' ahead instead of the 15'
allowed prior. IF the dog lags than
run straight ahead. (do not gather up line,
always leave slack)
Repeat the 5 minute cool down after each lesson.
Day 6th.
Confine dog, Continue the above pattern,
making a running about turn if the dog lags more than 2' ahead of you or running a
few feet forward if the dog gets 2' behind you.
There is more to the basic training, but
this should get you started in keeping
Zorro from lunging. (If when walking
with your 6' lead and Zorro moves ahead or lags behind use the same method of running the opposit direction or forward. (never keeping the lead tight)
There must be enough slack so you can correct.
The WHY:
By keeping slack on the lung line, it does
not matter how large the dog is or how
small you are. IF the dogs is pulling you
than you loose control for giving a correction.
THe reason for no Verbal commands or tugging in the beginning will force the dog to
look at you for direction. Commands and hand signals would be used later.
The above is just the bare basics of
the Koehler method of Dog training.
Ask your trainer about it.

Ryan

Thanks so much for your strategies. I am looking forward to implementing them. Right now we are going through a heat wave so might wait until the weather calms down abit.

Mayissa: Of course, you have to be a *itch -- the Alpha *itch!! http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/wink.gif Sounds like you're making progress with Zorro. There are a couple of informational things I'd just like to add about approaching strangers and line of sight: Whenever two strange dogs approach each other, have you ever noticed how the heads and tails go straight up and they seem to lift onto their toes? Same principle as why they hike as high as they can on things -- I'm Bigger Than You. Now, just apply this concept to the dog's thought process and you'll see that when someone comes toward him and looks him in the eye, he probably perceives them as challenging him in size and eye contact dominance. Come to think of it, this might be some of the basis of Zorro's aggression -- whoever breaks eye contact first is the "lower" pack animal. If people look at him, he growls, and they not only look away first, they back away, he's won and considers them "lesser mortals" (so to bark, uh, speak). Of course, it doesn't help much that we have almost all been brought up to distrust large black dogs from early on -- look at the reputations of Rotties, Dobies and the other large black dogs. They've almost all been portrayed as mean, evil, "I'm going to eat you up" dogs and since people can barely see them at night, they surprise most everyone. Add to that that Shepherds have been portrayed as guard dogs for the police and in wartimes and we have developed a populace that is trepidatious around a black Shepherd at best. You are doing an excellent job from the sound of it and I applaud your efforts. Far too many people with the same situation would have sent the dog to the pound/shelter, put him down, or driven him to the country and dumped him. Kudos and commendations for taking an active and proactive role in this dog's life and working on making him a good citizen of the world. http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/biggrin.gif

The above is just the bare basics of
the Koehler method of Dog training.
Ask your trainer about it.[/B][/QUOTE]

Is this the guy on TV? I've read a lot of books about training and seen a lot of videos and don't recall this, but it sounds like a guy that was doing infomercials on TV. Have you used this method? Did it work like you wanted it to? I'm always curious about methods of training that are not the "jerk and shove" types we used to learn. Does this person have a website? I'd be interested in exploring it if he does.

Ryan, yeah me too! I would be really interested to read more about it.

Amazon.com has his books. It was very interesting to read the consumer reviews. People either love him or hate him.

Rachel,
I just went and read the reviews
at Amazone.com.
People are shure passionate one way or the other.
I purchased an older print book on E-Bay
and I found a trainer by recommendation who uses this method of training.
I will keep everybody posted on
how my boy does.