Gonzo Problems. . .

This morning, I walked Gonzo to the park/field to play ball, and after a while a neighbor with their Golden Retriever came in. Gonzo had only played with her once, waay back in November, but they ran and wrestled for like an hour then! Today, he was wagging his tail and doing a friendly posture, but he also growled and shrunk down a few times when she started jumping around. The people let her off lead anyway, and the dogs were being friendly at first. She was a big, hyper young Golden and when she jumped on him to wrestle he would growl and run back to me, sit in front of me and growl at her. His hackles were not even up, or his tail, he was looking away from her and everything. I think this means he was scared?

He has soooo not been the same since that Rottie bit him at the dog park. I have no idea what to do with him, because I've been working on getting him to NOT want to play with other dogs and focus on me more all this time. Now I just want him to be friendly and generally have good manners with other dogs. . which he really did have before all of this. . .

Gonzo also acted like a huge brat when we went to the PT meeting with Di and Sophie. . he was really good with all of our dogs, which he had known before, but with strange big dogs (mostly black dogs/large dogs) he would act very defensive and growl. He has never been like this before :( whenever he used to act intimidated by large hyper dogs, he would usually just ignore them and rarely growled at them like this. I feel like he EXPECTS strange, big dogs to attack him, and he is immediately defensive and growly. He didn't act like he wanted a fight, he was just warning them and he wanted nothing to do with them. Compared to the meeting we had in January, where he was playing with all of the dogs that came up, he was not like this at ALL! I haven't taken him to the dog park at all since he was attacked, except to the PT meeting, so he has seldom been around any dogs he doesn't know since then. Could that have any affect on his behavior? He used to go to the dog park 2-3 days a week (sometimes more). . but I feel like he no longer trusts strange dogs, and more than anything I dont trust strange dogs!

:( I'm just really bummed. I really want him to behave for Miko's B-day, and be nice to the 2 new Goldens that will be there. It was so embarassing and wierd how he was acting near the end of the last meeting (we were also there for 3 hours, if that could have anything to do with it?). . I feel like socializing him with other dogs was one of the FEW things I got right with him from the start, and now thats all going to hell :p. . ANY advice as far as socializing him with big dogs (there are TONS of Goldens and big pups in our nieghborhood to work with), and getting him to feel like they're okay, is SO appreciated and will be tried out!

I wouldn't worry about it too much...good weather is coming you can take him out more...maybe on the small dog side when nobody is over there. Some dogs just don't hit it off. Casey was happy go lucky at the dog park until that one dog, Tulle..bit casey and she has been wary every since but she has a lot more issues than gonzo.

Oh Gonzo...I know a lot of BCs that are not social friendly!:p (though Blaze pretty much is with other dogs) All I can say is maybe start with smaller dogs, then move up and have him play with bigger dogs that aren't rough. Other than that, it could just be the way he is...as Mickey the next door BC is pretty anti-social and he always has been. (he's 9 now) So I really don't know what else to say...

I am definitely not a dog expert (as you can see by the problems I'm having with Max), but I think I understand what's going on with Gonzo.

Have you ever had somebody you didn't know very well do something really mean and unexpected to you? For a while, you don't trust anybody. After you've spent some more time with other people, though, you realize that most people aren't going to be mean. You may remain a bit less trusting, in general, but you don't always expect people to hurt you.

Maybe it will just take some more time with dogs who aren't mean to him, before Gonzo realizes that he can be more trusting again.

I would think that some time spent with one or two gentle large dogs at a time might help Gonzo to begin regaining his trust in others. The trouble will be finding these trustworthy but strange dogs to socialize him with.

Based on my little experience and generally young age, don't take what I have to say too seriously :p. Basically, I think Gonzo's fear aggression is being reinforced unconciously. When he is kept on lead (or retained by you, i.e. you holding him back) and he is approached by a larger dog, his "fight or flight" mechanism jumps in. Naturally, with a larger, more aggressive dog coming at him and him being restrained, he's going to fight. When he does this and you tell the owner of the large dog to go away, Gonzy learns that this behavior worked, therefore rewarding his aggressive behavior. Also, you mentioned that for fear of hurting Gonzo, you haven't been going to the dog park any more (or as much). This lack of dog-dog socialization along with the "rewarding" bad behavior would make him more inclined to "fight" than to "flight", I think. Plus, you said that when he became scared of your friend's dog, he ran towards you- thus displaying his first choice of "flight". Then, when the dog would not give up, Gonzo began resorting to "fight", or growling.

Also, when you take Gonzo out and try to 'protect' him from other dogs, I think you'd probably tense up, grab his harness/leash, and pull Gonzo back. Let's face it, even though you know Gonzy is only acting out due to fear aggression, you don't want to deal with vet bills, apologies to you or the other dog owner, regret, guilt, etc. :p So to avoid that whole scenario, you pull Gonzo away and this reinforces the idea of fear. Remember when we saw that GINORMOUS chocolate Lab coming toward us? Gonzo started acting iffy and you pulled Gonzo away and between your legs. Of course, all of us were tense and anticipating the next movement, waiting with baited breath for the Lab to leave. Naturally, Gonzo, seeing you as Alpha (or....I hope so, LOL), is becoming even *more* scared now that AlphaMom is tense and scared. As in a wolf pack, Alpha decides how to act towards strangers, and Gonzo will look to you to decide how to act. Confidence is of the utmost importance. The simple remedy for this is to get a friend who has a large, dark-ish, TOTALLY dog friendly dog. Go to a comfortable, but not Gonzo's, territory and allow the two to meet. Just for safety precautions, you can throw two muzzles on the dogs. ;) Then, with a *slightly stiff* leash (not taut, but not too slack), allow the two dogs to sniff at each other. Move as the dogs move so the leashes don't get tangled and praise and reward. (You probably already know this:o ).

SOOOO, after all that, my suggestion is to avoid any circumstances where Gonzo is onlead and the offensive dog is off lead. This spells trouble all over it, and I would avoid the off leash dog park. However, I encourage going down into a city area with lots of other leashed dogs and send lots of messages of confidence. As the Alpha, you know which dogs you like and trust. Like with Gissie, Gonzo LOVED her! Even though she was almost twice his size and fairly dark, he adored her. I bet part of the reasons why he felt no apprehension was because you'd met Giselle before and knew she would never hurt a fly (a rabbit, maybe, but not a fly LOL). You were showing signs of happiness, good excitement, and you were just plain comfortable and not tense. Gonzo, being the subordinate dog, knew better than to question your judgement and was completely okay with Seshy, Megan, Gis, and Miko. That, plus they weren't dog aggressive:p

Have you read this article, yet? http://www.bcrescue.org/fearaggression.html
It deals with BCs, in particular, so that might help. Good luck and give Gonzo many smooches for me! Gissie is sending lots of lub and kissies to him.;)

yay! I was waiting for you to reply, Sophie :). . thanks for all the advice! actually, I didn't even think of most of that at all :o! I kindof knew I was being really nervous with strange dogs, because I assumed that he would be uncomfortable with them. . but I'm sure how I acted was mostly what made him defensive. I will definitely start introducing him to as many big dark dogs as much as I possibly can!! :o yess, that dog park thing was horrid. He has never acted that wierd. I'll try taking him to the dog park when it's quiet, maybe with my friend Lindsay and her Aussie this weekend. .

I also noticed, that Gonzo does not generally like super-hyper happy young dogs (Labs and Goldens are mostly in this category ;)). . he gets quickly annoyed by them, sometimes. He also doesn't like most puppies around 6 months old that are big and hyper. I was wondering, if he does growl at a dog (even if I'm calm, loose leash) it says to not remove him from the situation, and not have the other dog go away. So do I just let him growl and act like a butt-head? Or, do I make him sit, or correct him or what? I was thinking maybe I could separate the dogs for a minute and calm him down, then re-introduce them? I honestly don't know. It's sad, I did all of this stuff with introducing him to strange people, but its hard to convert to dogs :p

^_^ stacwase, you're probably right. I really, really hope socializing and getting him to trust other dogs would help. It probably isn't a huge problem, as he's usually fine with dogs he's met and in a calmer environment than a busy dog park. thanks!

I completely agree in regards to take him out and around other dogs as much as possible in a controlled enviroment. I had a 10 lb terrier mix that was attacked by 2 akita's, a large vet bill later he phyiscally recovered, but mentally not as fast. Before the attack he was outgoing, loved other dogs, people, everything. He had absolutely no fear. After, he wouldn't go near a large dog no matter what breed, he'd usually try to hide and trembled. I tried to take him out around other dogs, and that helped, but it wasn't till about 2 years later when we adopted a large mixed breed that he started to come around. By the time he passed about 8 years later, we had a total of 3 large dogs and he'd been around countless others without any problems or fears. So I think it will just take time and lots of exposure to other large dogs.

In regards to the growling, I confess I'm not an animal expert so with that in mind, I'd pull him back, make him sit and tell him no. On the other side I'd praise him a lot if he goes near another dog without growling. Even when passing another dog on a walk, if their close and he doesn't show any aggression I'd definately praise him. I agree dogs, can pick up on your emotions, so try not to tense, just be aware of body language so you can avert any problems.

I think he's got a little post traumatic fear and I agree that you should take him around dogs that you know are friendly so he can regain his trust slowly. Good luck, I hope he feels safer soon.

LOL Erica, I was thinking the same thing. My trainer is actually really tough and, you know, macho with his pit bull. So he actually recommends using a taut leash and standing firmly on the ground with both feet apart. With Giselle and the other kabillion Labs and Pit bull mixes there, it's okay because they're 100% dog friendly and are eager to greet each other. He suggested that when the dogs growl or show signs of uneasiness, he'd pull the dog out. Now...according to that article and common sense, that would just reinforce the "fight" part of Gonzo. So, after all my rambling, I really have no idea:o :p It says not to use the "get in their face" procedure unless you're working with a behaviorist. I know you guys are really into agility and flyball. Maybe you know a really good behaviorist over there? It sounds like averting his attention and reintroducing the dog would work though!

I wouldn't worry about Gonzo getting pissed at hyper breeds and puppies. Lucky hates them. Whenever Gissie starts doing her Greyhound Zoomies and tries to engage Lucky to play, he averts his gaze and gets this wild-eyed look. It's his way of saying No, but Gissie doesn't get it so I shoo her away:p If you do meet these hyper dogs with Gonzo, I would get a Watch Me from him and get him to heel away from the dog. While he's still focusing on you, *scream* at the owner to take their dog away before Gonzo realizes he needs to convert into growly dog. During this whole time, Gonzo should be looking at you and not be noticing the other dog. That's how you can prevent accidents and not worry about reinforcing Gonzo's bad behavior. Good Luck!!! By the way, have I ever told you that he has an awesome name? ;p

thanks, Pnance and IRescue! ^_~ I just hope he gets back to his old self. . or at least starts acting decent.

Giselle, I went the dog park tonight with Lindsay and her aussie Heather, but it was raining earlier and kindof gross so there was only a few people there - 2 BC's who he has known forever, a boxer named Frizbee who he has also known forever, a Sibe, and a BCxLab. He mostly played with Heather, Frizbee, and he wrestled with the Sibe forever. The BCxLab was playing ball on the other side, and Gonzo did growl at him a little when the guy was bringing him in and he rushed over to Gonzo. . then Gonzo layed down and watched him and he was doing to the herding thing but he didn't bother him, and he came when I told him to Leave It. Its so wierd that he's exhibiting herding instinct now. . . I think it must be because he hasn't gone to the dog park in a few months, and he acts all wierd and over-stimulated. He did fine though, but it wasn't a big deal because there was only a few dogs there :p. Oh, and I haven't called our behaviorist about this. . I e-mailed her right after he got attacked, and she said to slowly introduce him to dogs that might threaten him and all that stuff, and to call her if he has problems. I think I might need to call her. My dad was being stupid and saying "he's FINE! I dont wanna pay $175 to get him to play with dogs. ." -.-

OMG. I hope he's nice to Crayola and Daisy! he's such a freakin punk.

LOL. . thanks! A lot of people think his name is really dumb. when I first told his Flyball trainer his name, she was like, "what? his name is Gonzo? ew, why did you name him that?". . and they still make fun of us T_T they just arent cool

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Originally posted by bckrazy
OMG. I hope he's nice to Crayola and Daisy! he's suck a freakin punk.

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Seriously, you'll probably be seeing Daisy roll over on her back more times then you could possibly count. She's pretty submissive around new dogs until she warms up to them. She's not very hyperactive, either, like some Goldens you've obviously seen. She does like to play, but she's VERY mellow. We'll see, though. She might surprise me.

Molly can be a bit of a brat which is one of the reasons why we probably won't bring her. She's usually one of the "loner" dogs at the dog park and the only time she really interacts with the other dogs is when one is running.. that's when her herding instinct comes in. Gotta love those bratty herding dogs. :p

Anyway, sorry for rambling. Hopefully Gonzo will be a good boy and I'm hoping Daisy won't contribute to any problems. :o

Can't wait to meet your little Garbanzo Bean! (He he, sorry :o) .

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Originally posted by GoldenRetrLuver
Can't wait to meet your little Garbanzo Bean! (He he, sorry :o) .

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LMAO! thats a new one ^_~ I can't wait to meet Daisy!!

ugha. I really, really hope he is nice to her. If he isn't, he's in big trouble :rolleyes:. . Daisy sounds so sweet! There have been plenty of Goldens that he liked a lot (at the PT meet in Feb he was playing with a Golden most of the time), now that I think of it most of the dogs in our nieghborhood are Goldens, so I guess he's bound to dislike some :p! I apologize in advance if he's a jerk n_n. . .

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Originally posted by bckrazy
OMG. I hope he's nice to Crayola and Daisy! he's such a freakin punk.

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hi :)

my advices are as well as others but what I would must do, try treats? and absolutely social him more!

and I think you shouldn't worry with gonzo being around crayola. he's very, very mellow - and this dog likes to be a mouse, not a cat. everytime I bring him to the dog park, he'd either run up to a dog then sniff and stay by me for another hour :rolleyes: but he's loyal little fella! or let others chase him and pretends to not run away :) I have a good feeling they'll be okay! so far from what daisy spoke too! ((hugs to remove your stresses))

aw, thanks Gina! I've been socializing him everywhere possible. . he actually seems to be getting better :)! It could just be my imagination. . LOL. .

Hey, at least Gonzo doesn't slobber!:o

I did not read most of this thread but I thought I would respond to the not likly dogs like labs and goldens, this is actually VERY common, very few BCs like labs and goldens because their play sytle is completly differnt, what a lab or golden considers play is not interpreted as such by a BC because a BCs play style is work orintated, they tend to consider play to be serious buisness, they have a low couchy posture, while labs and goldens in play have a very upright tail way up head carried high posture, this often is interpreted by a BC to be threatening, and therefore they will get very nervous. Most BCs only like dogs with similier play styles such as aussies, so that should be kept in mind when you work with him.

I am speaking of most BCs here lol Happy is not like that at all, actually labs and goldens are some of her favorite breeds lol, she hates pointers and schnouzers, and loves goldens and bosten terriers so I am not sure exacly what it is that sets her off about those dogs :o

Poor Gonzo :(, i hope he feels safer around large dogs again soon. I do what you do, if i see a strange dog come bounding up to us i flip El up into my arms to avoid a fight, or get between the two dogs and the stupid owners yell out "He/ She is friendly it's ok" :mad:.

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I also noticed, that Gonzo does not generally like super-hyper happy young dogs (Labs and Goldens are mostly in this category

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Urgh does'nt this sound familar :(. Elvis detests almost every Lab he meets, apart from the couple he grew up with but he has been a bit edgy with them aswell lately. He made an instant friend with a Golden at the park a couple of weeks ago, but you could see them trying to work out how to play, El wanted to chase and the Golden wanted to wrestle lol they worked it out in the end with a chasey wrestling game :D.

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Originally posted by cloverfdx
Urgh does'nt this sound familar :(. Elvis detests almost every Lab he meets, apart from the couple he grew up with but he has been a bit edgy with them aswell lately.

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Wow, I'm really relieved to hear that, Cali and Rhiannon!! I thought Gonzo was just being super mean and impatient. I do get the feeling that his aggression towards them is not as dominant as it is confused and scared. . . he rarely plays with 100+ pound dogs, but the second he meets most BC's/Aussies/Huskies he runs and wrestles with them. It's sooo confusing for me T_T! I still would prefer that he doesnt growl so much at any friendly dog, I'm really not used to this growly side of him. . he always used to just ignore dogs he didn't like too much. I'm continuing to try to get him used to big dogs again, he growled at a nieghbors choco Lab on a walk tonight (the dog ran out of their garage off-leash at us, so I dont exactly blame Gonzy). . then 5 minutes later he wrestled and got leash-tangled with his Husky friend Maya who is at least twice the size of him. I think he must have breed discrimination :p

LOL Rhiannon!! El and Gonzo must be related somehow. . I would definitely describe his attitude towards MOST Labs as "detest". I feel bad, because Labs are so sweet and lovey :(