Outdoor vs. Indoor

I would like to address the issue of outdoor vs. indoor cats. Yesterday my heart sank when I saw a "LOST CAT" sign on the window of an apartment building on my block (I live on the northwest side of Chicago). The photo of the cat on the sign was of a gorgeous siamese mix that I had often seen roaming around outside. This cat was so beautiful, and I enjoyed seeing it whenever I encountered it. http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/smile.gif But I was also afraid for the cat, and the few other cats I have seen exploring the area on my block. Lately I had wondered why I hadn't seen it in a while. Then yesterday I saw the sign, and I thought, "Oh no!!". Ever since I had adopted my own cat over a year ago, I came to believe that NO cat should be allowed outdoors. All cats should be kept indoors where they will be much safer and healthier.

It just broke my heart to see that "LOST CAT" sign. It made me angry, too. http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/mad.gif I know that many of you may disagree with me, but it seems to me that to better protect your cat from premature death, from parasites and viruses, and from serious injury, it should always be kept inside!

I really hope that lovely siamese will somehow get back to its owner. I remember that the cat had a collar with tags, so that should help. It may actually be possible that someone else *took* that cat for their own because it was so beautiful. I may never know what happened to it. I would just die if I ever let my cat outside and she got lost. I just can't believe that it is ever okay to let a cat roam outside, even if its owners live in the country on a farm where there are fewer traffic hazards. It just doesn't seem right to me.

Many times I see cat photos on "Cat of the Day" that show the kitty outside. When I see those photos, I always think to myself, "I hope the owner keeps an eye on that kitty whenever it's outside."

I would like to ask all cat owners who currently allow their cats outdoors to end that practice. If they do want to let their cats have some space to explore outside, please, why don't you make sure you supervise them or keep them on a leash during "outdoors" time? But, honestly, I think it's much better for all cats to be "indoor" cats. http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/smile.gif Thank you for letting me express my opinion!

Hi Margaret ...
We should keep our cats indoor .. but also we should sometimes let them go out to live their natural life .. to meet other cats .. to know the around area .. and maybe to have a nice time http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/biggrin.gif ..
This makes your cat happy http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/smile.gif .. so if you love him/her really you have to sacrifice and let him/her go out ...

I'll put my 2 cents in worth too if I may. I agree wholeheartedly with Margaret. I have 4 'rescue' cats and they are all indoor cats. These cats were all at one time lost and came to the organizations from which I adopted them. Of the 4, only the oldest one makes any attempt to even go outside anymore; the other 3 run away from the door when it opens. I take her out, in my back yard only, on a harness and leash and am outside with her at all times. This happens maybe 5 times during the summer. Indoor cats generally live longer, healthier lives than outdoor kitties. This old girl is 14 y.o. and just got a clean bill of health from the vet! http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/smile.gif

I, too, agree with Margaret -- our cat is an indoor cat. In our neighbourhood, there is simply too much traffic and too many racoons for him to be safe outside. However, we would very much like to give him some (limited) 'safe' time outdoors, and taking him out on a harness is tedious (for both of us). Does anyone have any experience with building enclosed cat runs, or know of where instructions / ideas can be found on the net?

Thanks! http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/smile.gif

I agree with Margaret 100%. The bottom line is that your cat will live longer and be healthier. Who can argue with that? Isn't that what anyone wants for their pet? Both of my cats have NEVER been outside but sit on the windowsills when the windows are up and experience all the smells and sounds of the outdoors without the danger.

Better than plastic grocery bags are paper grocery bags. Mine will hide in it while the others take turns playfully pouncing on whichever cat is hiding in the bag! Plus there isn't the chance of suffocation as there might be with plastic bags.

Hey all,
I agree 10,000% that cats should be kept indoors. There is no need for them to go outside. I'm glad to see most of you agree also http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/smile.gif

IT'S DANGEROUS TO ALLOW YOUR CAT TO GO OUTSIDE TO "MEET" OTHER CATS! Most cats that they would meet are feral, and carry some kind of illness that can be transmitted to your cat such as rabies and feline leukemia, plus they could catch several different kinds of parasites, such as fleas, ticks, mites & lice. Your cat could get involved in a fight that could cause serious injuries and possibly death!

Here are just a few things that your cat could encounter outside as well:
1. Dogs
2. Cars (DEADLY!)
3. Feral cats
4. A nasty neighbor (been there, done that)
5. Diseases leading to possible agony/death
6. Parasites
Need I say more?...

I would also like to add, that in most places it is ILLEGAL to allow your pet to roam outside of your property (your house and yard) without having a leash on with the owner presently HOLDING the leash. Leash Laws DO apply to cats.
Even if they didn't, you should think of your cats health. One of our kitties was let outside for 5 years, and when we receive her she had many illnesses and parasites that were both costly, and caused her a lot of stress.

Please, don't let your kitty outside, think of her health and keep her inside.

Well, that's just my 2 cents. http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/smile.gif
Thanks for listening...err reading http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/wink.gif

SpencerTheLion:

Thanks so much for the info! Will be sure to check it out.

Laser pointer, huh? Never thought of that. Bet my cat would go nuts over that. http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/biggrin.gif

Flash lights and paper grocery bags are a huge hit around here http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/biggrin.gif

Hi guys...the cat shelter where I volunteer has "habicats" which are wire enclosures attached to the house with a "doggy door" leading from the house to the habicat. there's a company in Denver who actually makes them (hence the name) but I don't think they'd be too hard to construct.

I have friends in Connecticut who live out in the "country", supposedly safe from traffic..well, two of their cats were hit by cars and one was eaten by a fox...so much for the "simple" life...LOL.

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If a cat spoke, it would say things like, "Hey, I don't see a problem here!"

This is an interesting topic. Here in the UK, I think most cats are allowed outside, unless they live in city centres. I have noticed, whilst on holiday in America, that I hardly ever see cats outside. My cat, Sadie, has a cat flap, so she pops in and out into the garden during the day, but I always keep her safely in at night time, from about 9 pm. She doesn't wander at all, just enjoys sitting in the fresh air, watching bees and butterflies, and patrolling her "territory", but I do know lots of cats do wander and there is always a risk. I think the ideal would be a secure garden.

Hi everyone ...
I tried to keep my cat indoor many times .. but he disagreed .. every time he was meawing and asking me to open the door for him ..
When I see that he feels sad .. without thinking I open the door .. I love him very much and want him to be happy .. so I let him go out ...
Don't you think that cats need to feel free ?
It's right I have to care more about his health .. the only way to do this is to keep him indoor and I cann't do this ...
I need your advice .. what I have to do ?
Note : I cann't keep the door closed all the time ...

Margret,
I think that cat's should be allowed out side. If you don't let them out then they can't run and expand there terratory. http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/smile.gif They should only be let out with a good amount of space and a close eye from the owner. http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/wink.gif They may only be let out for maybe 20 minutes a day but should get to be outdoors. If you want to leave your cat out for a longer time do what I did and make enclosed area, so she canrun and sleep in the sun. http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by britney06 (edited August 15, 2000).]

It has been very interesting reading everyone's comments/viewpoints... As Pieper's Mom mentioned, "habi-cat" structures look like a good way to give a cat an "outdoor" experience. I have seen a large habi-cat attached to someone's house and there were at least two cats lounging in it, looking like they were having a grand old time, getting some sun through the screens, and being able to see the sights and smell the smells. I think window sills are perfectly good, too. I agreed with those who wrote about making the indoors more attractive to cats than the outdoors. I can give my cat plenty of exercise inside, making her run and jump when I play with her and entertain her with toys (I think I would like to try the laser pointer!). If a cat is in the habit of going outside and you want to help it "quit", maybe just distracting it by engaging it in playtime would really help.

We have a screen-in porch off the back of the house....I put a large planter on the outside of one of the windows, which is just at cat eye-level...filled it with seeds, corn and other good things. The squirrels love to come and also some birds...and the cats sit on the other side of the screen, enjoying intimidating their "prey" ... of course, the squirrels could care less, at least once they yet used to the hairy critters staring and licking their chops...LOL...even in the winter they will go out there for a little sun if it's a warm day. I haven't been able to sit in my wicker chair since I got it!!!

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If a cat spoke, it would say things like, "Hey, I don't see a problem here!"

Here is my cat enclosure: http://www.geocities.com/petsburgh/p...enclosure.html

That is SO cool. http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/cool.gif

Eileen,
Your cats are soooo lucky! That is one nice cat enclosure! Could your Uncle become my Uncle for a week or so? http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/biggrin.gif

Hello ...

SpencerTheLion :
Thank you very much for your advice http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/biggrin.gif

EileenKay :
Your site is nice .. and your cats are so sweet http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/rolleyes.gif

Thought I'd add a few links on the topic: http://www.wenet.com/~amazon/happycat.html http://www.vospca.org/archive/indoorcat.html http://www.runway.net/b/moonmaid/in-or-out.html http://www.hdw-inc.com/leashtraining.HTM http://maxshouse.com/Healthy+Happy_Indoors.htm

i agree full heartly with margarett. cats should not be allowed to room out doors. there are to many substitutes factors that allow your loving feline to still get the fresh air and sunshines needed for there vitamin d intake. there are screened in porches, kitty runs etc. if you really care of the health & welfare of your loving friend. there are to many diesase, rabies, illnesses, cat unfriendly people etc. in the world today that brings harm to your family members, and for their safetly & well being should by all means be kept indoors. there are so many options out there to keep your little ones indoors & yet still give them the fresh air and excitement of making them think they are out doors but yet we are keeping them safe. cats runs, plants that are not harmful to your animal, climging trees, etc. to make them the out-doors, so come on feline lovers...protect your felines, keep them healthy, and save yourself the heart ache on losing your loved one.
pickles

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I know that the common wisdom is to keep cats inside. I decided to do that with Mimi when we got her because we had made an unfortunate decision with our previous cat, Shrimp Boat (long story, but I found her at a seafood market in NC). ShrimpBoat hated the outside. I felt sorry for her because we left a lot on the weekends, so we took her in our camper to the mountains one weekend. Bad ending. She escaped, and although she had a tag, we never found her. So, her replacement, Mimi, who is now 11 years old was going to be an inside cat at my husband's insistence (now ex). Guess what. When I became pregnant, she became an outside cat too. He simply wouldn't change the litterbox, and I couldn't do it due to doctor's orders. http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/mad.gif I tried "inside" again when my daughter and I moved to an apartment, but she was miserable. I finally had to decide to allow her some freedom, whatever the risk. Cars worry me the most, and she was hit once when she was about four years old. We were lucky and although she had a fractured pelvis, she recovered fully. I have noticed that as she gets older, she is more content inside. Next cat, I will attempt to keep it inside always, but this one simply will not have it. I am lucky though because she stays in the backyard most of the time with our dogs and doesn't even try to go anywhere else. I do let her out mostly at night so a lot of the birds are safer. She is quite a hunter. http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/smile.gif

I am shocked and horrified at these responses!

I think it is really CRUEL to keep a cat inside all the time - and that is almost certainly the majority view of British catlovers. I adore cats, but didn't have one for seven years because I was in a flat with no outside access. A year ago I bought a house - with cat flap already installed - and the immediately got a cat, who is gorgeous. He comes and goes as he wants, has great fun outside, and then comes inside for cuddles and food and sleep.

It is almost certainly true that a cat who is never allowed out would be healthier and live longer - but that would also apply to humans. Never go out - never drive, never fly, never go walking up mountains, avoid crowds where you can catch diseases - and you will certainly live longer.

But what sort of live will you have led? And what sort of life will your cat have led? Cats are by nature curious, exploratory, engaging animals. Most love the excitement of outside, having adventures, going hunting, and meeting other cats (some don't, and that's fine). I would much prefer my cat to live a full live - a full cat's life - than have a life of sleepy torpor in a soft-furnished prison.

My cat's a real cat with a full exciting cat life. If he dies younger, that's sad - but I would still make the same decision. Going out takes years of human lives, but we still do it because it is so much more fun. Simply focussing on the obvious measurable aspects of life expectancy and health ignores the cats psychological well-being.

And as I said, most people in Britian feel the same. Walk around any town here and you will be greeted by endless cats coming up to you to say hello while out on their adventures, before returing to their warm home for food and sleep. The idea of a town full of imprisoned cats horrifies me!

Anthony,

I believe that most of the people that post here are from North America. I know were I live there are cat by-laws, they have to be "under control at all times". Outside that means on a leash or in a cat run. If they are caught loose they are sent to the SPCA, and once there who knows what their fate will be. I dare say that most urban areas in NA have by-laws similar to this.
I also believe that most of the people that post here really and truly love their cats and would be horrified if something happened to them that they could have prevented. To achieve this, most choose to keep their cats safe indoors. Seeing that cats sleep most of the time, I believe that sleeping in a comfy chair, or on a sunny window ledge is much safer than sleeping under a bush somewhere where they can be attacked by predators.
This is my point of view, anyways.

P.S. My cats were rescued off the streets, and 3 out of the 4 run away (back inside) from the back door when it is opened. They like the life they have now. One will occasionally go outside to nibble on some grass. I supervise her.

[This message has been edited by dogncatluvr (edited September 16, 2000).]

It certainly seems the outdoors environment and laws are different in the UK and NA. I thought it was a joke when I was in Canada last year and a friend was distraught when their cat slipped outside because it was breaking the law. If any government tried to introduce such a law here, there would be a revolution (I am only half joking - we feel very strongly about our animals here, and it is so off the agenda having 'cat-laws' that I have never heard them spoken of here. Such an idea is completely inconceivable).
And our outdoors does seem much more benign to cats. There are cars, but no predators, no dangerous diseases (fleas is about it), and a nation of cat-addicts. The biggest problem if you let your cat out is pursuading your neighbours not to feed it (this can cause big tug-of-love problems!). My cat Bingo wanders around our neighbours house all the time, and eats their cats' food - but we are all cat lovers and its not been a problem for anyone. There are so many cat lovers in the UK, that there are virtually no feral cats (I've never seen one), and if your cat does get lost and taken to a home, it is very unlikely to be put down - but almost certainly rehoused.
I've had in the past two cats who had total freedom to go outdoors, and both lived fit and healthy lives til they were eighteen years

I have 3 cats, & they all live outdoors. But I live in the country & there country cats. My sister has one in town but she's an indoor cat. I think it depends on where the cat lives (in the country, city, ect..) & it depends on the cat I think... alll my cats (evan the girls) are tomboys... Evan when I let them in the house (when my parents aren't home) they run to the door & ask to go out... ~~

Anthony

I'm a member of Cats Protection in the UK, a welfare organisation for cats, and the majority of their work involves re-homing strays and the neutering feral colonies of cats. So although the majority of us seem to be lucky enough not to be affected, there are some severe problems, in city centres as well as in rural areas.

I enjoyed your very articulate plea for cats to be allowed outside - as you probably read, I love seeing cats enjoying the outdoors, and also, like you, I love meeting other people's cats. The posts about the outdoor environment in the US were fascinating - some people we met in New Mexico this summer were amazed that we don't have snakes coming into our "backyards"!

Helen


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Helen

Hello all, I'm new here and a little late to this post, but had to share my opinion...I have 4 cats(6yr old black male DSH-Sin, 2yr old black female DSH-Prissy, and 5month old sibling sisters-Belle is a brown tabby DSH and Pepper is another black DSH--no, I don't like black cats!!) http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/smile.gif http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/wink.gif...these are just like my babies and they are strictly indoor cats. I would prefer that it was safe enough for them to be able to go outdoors once in awhile, but that is just not possible...I have a friend who some might say is an 'animal collector'--she takes in strays and at this time has 8 adult cats and 3 litters of kittens!!!(way too many, in my opinion)...but, not to mention the safety of the cats is the monetary issue also...I got Sin 4 yrs ago, and took Prissy in about a yr ago, and the babies came to me when they were 3 weeks old(they were put out of the house by their mother's owner and I couldn't see them surviving when they were that small, so I brought them home)...since they have all been indoors since I got them, I've only had minor vet bills, and the normal routine yrly checks and shot updates and general stuff(Sin was neutered when I got him), and then Prissy had to be spayed, and the babies will be spayed shortly(being a single mother this has been a blessing-monetarily, I mean)...but the collector friend that I mentioned spends very high dollars on these animals(which I do not see as a problem, mind you), and then just lets these animals roam(and she is in a country type setting), but--in the last year, she has lost over half of them to cars, roaming dogs, disease, toxins...you name it?? I really must say that to me, keeping a cat indoors is best for them(in most cases). Sin and Prissy have never seen the outdoors(except through the window)and that seems fine for them. The babies may or may not remember the outdoors, but they have never once tried to escape?? Just my opinion, but thanks for letting me share...

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Human 'owned' by Sin, Prissy, Belle and Pepper...

Hi,
Having only just ventured into the cat forum from the dogs I was shocked to read some of the messages! It brought back a very vivd memory from about ten years ago. My cousin, in Virginia USA, had just left home and was excited about getting her first cat. When she wrote telling us about this she was waiting to collect the cat from the vet where he was having his claws removed to save the furniture. This news sent me rushing for the bathroom and I was physically sick.
Here in the UK you would not be able to find a vet willing to carry out such a procedure.
The law in this country recognises the nature of cats and when they are outside the owner is not held responsible for their actions. It is however against the law to take any action that may harm a cat. On the other side of this if a cat is hit by a car no action has to be taken by the driver whereas all accidents involving dogs, required to be under control, must be reported to the police.
We do have a massive feral cat population in this country and many of the "strays" picked up by animal welfare organisations are feral animals. (Most pet moggies in this country have the potential to go feral and survive in a wild state, although it's easier for them if don't!) This is true in the country as well as in the urban areas. We live on the edge of Salisbury plain, it's on our doorstep, and we have plenty of feral cats all over the plain. When I worked on a farm in rural Cornwall we had several ferals in the area.
We don't have the threat of rabies in this country, and the only predators likely to take a cat would only tackle an already injured or sick cat. Our only venemous snake, the adder, rarely bites cats, dogs are much more common victims due to owner ignorance of the snakes habitat and habits.
Traffic is the greatest danger to our cats.
Given all the problems faced by cats in the outside world I still couldn't bear to keep my cats inside for all their lives. If the government wouldn't allow my cats to go outside I simply wouldn't have any - I have always dreamed of owning big cats, but wouldn't dream of it as they would be caged. The same with wolves.
All in all neutering has to become the norm in this country, declawing is right up there with ear cropping dogs as far as I'm concerned and cats have every right to live part of their lives as cats - outside. If you can't afford the vet bills to innoculate your animals, don't have animals.
I love my kids and would defend them to the death but just because I love them doesn't give me the right to lock them up and deny them expression of their true nature.

I let 1 of my 3 (Max) out because he knows the area he has been going out for years. Try to just let them out a little supervised and try taking them on walks with a harness.
When you think they know the area well enough let them go out every once-in-a-while http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/smile.gif

There is an ongoing "battle" in the Editorial section of our newspaper about a pack of wild dogs roaming one section of our city. These dogs are killing cats. This morning, a letter to the editor reminded the citizens of our county that cats are subject to the same leash laws as dogs. Has anyone ever determined how to contain a cat outdoors? How ridiculous!!!! http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/confused.gif

Obviously some people, and a lot of them, do keep their cats permenantly indoors and many in the States are required to do so by law. I can only suggest that animal control agencies are contacted to deal with the feral, or roaming, dog pack.

As for containing a cat outdoors, I know several cats who live in city neighborhoods who are only allowed outdoors on a leash, the same as many dogs. I asked one woman if her cat liked the leash, and she said - "She knows it's the only way she's going outdoors, so she doesn't seem to mind it at all!" She was trained to leash as a kitten.

I used to feel that I would rather have my cats live a short, happy life than a long, miserable life. When I realized after several years that I had only one cat survive past 5 years, and all the others died horrible deaths (cars-run over by or mangled up in, poisonings, gunshots, disease, etc.) I began attempting to keep them exclusively inside. Of course, some cats are obsessed and will successfully escape. One of my cats was adopted by a stray, and she darts out after dark occasionally. I try to catch her but can't always. On those nights I sleep on the couch so I can hear her scratch on the door when she returns. I have her three grown kittens (another consequence of roaming cats-reproduction!) and only one of them goes outside - on a harness and leash. He loves his "walkies". I need to make a few comments, though, that I would feel I must make even if I were an outdoor advocate. First of all, to all the people who mentioned "letting their cat get to know the area before they're allowed out unsupervised" - I think y'all are operating on the false assumption that it's dangerous for your cat to roam MAINLY because he may get lost if he doesn't know his way around. In fact, cats NEVER "get lost". They don't return because either they have been carried away, injured too severely to come home, or killed. So letting them "get to know their surroundings" is a useless and dangerous idea. Also, to the people who think they are lessening the risk by only letting their cats out at night - cats are nocturnal. This is their "howling time" and they are much more likely to encounter danger then than in the daytime. They are also harder to see so their chances of getting hit by a car are increased by their invisibility and their mobility at night. Alot of their predators are also nocturnal. Cats who are outdoors during the day are most likely snoozing somewhere. I don't advocate loose cats day or night, but if I were forced to make a choice I would rather have my cats out during the day. After all, we frequently see the unfortunate tragedy of a dead cat on the side of the road on the way TO work in the morning, but seldom if ever on our way home FROM work in the afternoon. And, to add two more cents worth, I think declawing is just as cruel and horrible as letting cats roam. A quick P.S. - alot of members (including me) seem to be from Dallas/Fort Worth! When I lived in Denton, I learned that Denton County had the highest rabies rate of any other county in Texas nearly every year (including this year so far!) This was one of the factors making me convert to indoors only.

I saw someone writeing about how o get you'r cat useto the area.... my kittens there almost 2, they where born here so thats not a problem with me.

but when i did live in the city & we moved we put butter on the bottom of ower cats feet... An old English tail doing that, but it worked he {ower older cat hes 17-18 hes a russ. blue mix} came home with no trobel , but then he's been knowin to attack my rottie's lol

just thought I'd add that in ~~

Spencer - I agree with everything you say. I agree that an ideal situation would be a secure outdoor enclosure, but that is not possible for most of us. Even if I could afford it, I'm sure my neighbors in my fourplex would find it ugly and my landlord would probably tear it down (especially since he's already miffed at me because I'm allowed to keeps my four cats due to his negligence in not including a no pets clause in the lease!).

Also, your guarded assertion that shots last 3 years is correct. Most laws require rabies every year, but alot of vets (mine included) are now recommending all other shots every 3 years after kitten shots and the first annual booster because it is now becoming clear that the annual shots may increase the chances of a certain kind of malignancy showing up at the inoculation site.

Also, I agree about how feral cats should be handled. I mentioned in one of my earlier posts about having previously lived in Denton. Denton has a large feral cat population, probably because of a lack of any local humane societies and the large transient population. I was involved with a group of people (too informally gathered to be called an organization) who worked to capture, vaccinate, and neuter/alter feral cats and then re-release them. We felt this was the best thing to do since there were no shelters (except the city) and all the foster homes were bursting with overpopulation. Any kittens were taken in to foster homes and eventually neutered/spayed and found homes since they could be tamed. We hoped that we were at least helping to control the population of unwanted cats, if nothing else.

Lastly, I agree that too many times the foster homes are too crowded, but as long as only a precious few of us are willing to help these poor unwanted creatures and as long as the goofus clods out there insist on not neutering/spaying and then allowing their animals to roam or, worse, turning them out and abandoning them, the problem will continue. The way I look at it, we (society collectively, of course) tamed these animals to the point that they can no longer take care of themselves adequately, and their basic instincts now serve to do them harm instead of just merely ensuring the survival of the species, it is up to us to do all we can to take care of them and try to do what we can to cut down on the population in any way. This includes fostering with neutering/spaying as well as educating the public, starting with school-age kids. The problem will probably never go away but some of us feel a duty to do whatever small thing we can. I know I'm preaching to the choir because I remember in some of your previous posts you have mentioned that your people foster, but maybe by posting in a public forum other people will decide to take it upon themselves to help out and more foster homes will open up and then there will be less crowding and more education going on. I get on my soap box for the kitties, Spencer, for all the kitties like you who don't have it so lucky, who don't have people that love them like yours do you! http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/biggrin.gif http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/biggrin.gif http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/biggrin.gif

I had a freind who did a lot of rescuing adn fostering who had an outdoor enclosure to die for. It was very sturdy, constructed of 4 by 4's, 2 by 4's and chicken wire. They could get to it through a cat door from the garage. It was very sturdy and ran the length of the garage, about 20 feet, and was about 10 feet wide and about six feet high, and there were platforms of differing heights for the cats that like to perch out of sight. I never had the nerve to ask her how much it cost (since I was raised to believe that sort of question is rude under any circumstance) but I'm sure it wasn't inexpensive. Sadly, she moved to New Mexico to be with her aging, ill mother and had to leave her wonderful outdoor enclosure behind since it had not been built to be portable, and the people who bought her house immediately tore it down.

Are any of you familiar with "B Dealers"? I don't know what you call them in the rest of the country, but that's what I've always heard people call the folks who collect "abandoned" pets for sale to processors who used them for experimentation or training other animals (like fighting dogs).

They were a big business here in Atlanta and some were even so bold as to take smaller dogs from their own backyards or runs. And friendly cats were easy prey to these people.

I worked a few raids on these dealers years ago and it was so sickening, so totally nauseating, a couple of times was all I could handle. In one of the raids we found neatly stacked shoeboxes, marked by month, and each shoe box had collars, some with tags, taken from pets we suspect had been sold.

It got even worse when the "dealer" received a fine (light fine, in my opinion - less than $1,000) and was released. I always wondered if anyone called any of the phone numbers on the tags to tell them what had happened to their pet, but I doubt it.



[This message has been edited by Vi Co Bi (edited March 18, 2001).]

Even if you give "free to good home" there are things that clue you in to whether or not a person is affiliated with a lab. This is a paraphrase of a call I had on my machine when I had some fosters up for adoption. Keep in mind my ad in the paper did not specify age, color, or sex:

"I saw your ad in the paper for free kittens. I need those kittens. Call my pager at 555-1212"

Clue #1-no inquiry into colors, ages, or sexes available
Clue #2-no name or home phone number given
Clue #3-"needing" the whole litter
Clue #4-taking the whole litter without knowing if that meant 2 or 8 kittens

Spencer-from what I was told in the new employee orientation a few weeks ago, UTSW no longer does animal research (but you know how that goes, that does not necessarily mean it has actually been discontinued). I will try to find out more.

It was mentioned in passing. I don't remember the specific topic being discussed, but it ended with "but that was when we still had the animal research lab, since it was closed down this no longer applies". So it could be that there is still some animal experimentation. There is a very large amount of research going on at UTSW, so I would have a hard time believing that there are not at least some white mice on campus.