Just would like to know, also share your opinons.
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Just would like to know, also share your opinons.
The only breeders I'm against are BYBs. Good breeders are good, because they try to improve the breed's health and so on.
I got Elvis from a good breeder. :)
I'm not 100% against, although I would love to see people stop breeding until there is no need for animal shelters.
I'm 1/2 1/2 because it is better to buy from a breeder than a pet shop. BYB however, I'm against.
I am for responsible breeding only. BYB can obviously be done without. Breeders are very important, as long as they don't abuse their positions.
I breed fancy rats and take my job seriously. I do however feel that BYB's need to take a step down. Even in the rat fancy there are people I consider BYB's and for very good reason. I focus on health and temperament and stress the importance for EVERY future rat owner to either get their rat from a responsible breeder or rescue. Our goal is to do away with pet shop rats and rescue rats and leave only sweet, social, healthy breeder stock to choose from. Ones that do not die at 5 months due to Myco, get tumors or show major aggression.
I agree.Quote:
Originally posted by primabella
I am for responsible breeding only. BYB can obviously be done without. Breeders are very important, as long as they don't abuse their positions.
What is BYB?
BYB is backyard breeder.... meaning someone who breeds continually without proper care and only in it to make a buck! :(
Ok now I get it! Thanks Kim:)
It took me minute to figure out what BYB meant too. I think they should be stopped completely!
I agree too.Quote:
Originally posted by primabella
I am for responsible breeding only. BYB can obviously be done without. Breeders are very important, as long as they don't abuse their positions.
I agree.Quote:
Originally posted by Kfamr
I'm not 100% against, although I would love to see people stop breeding until there is no need for animal shelters.
To say one is "against breeding all animals" is, of course, a very over-simplified statement ... as obviously someone must allow domestic animals to breed, or they would all become extinct.
However, I agree with Kfamr ... there is a major pet overpopulation crisis right now. About 99.9% of people breeding animals do not have the knowledge, ethics or morals to adequately do so, and should stop. Until every domestic animal has a good home waiting for it upon its birth, there are too many animals being bred.
I voted "against" it because there are already so many unwanted & unhomed pets in the world today!
I'm sure there are genuinely good people that do breed, but why? I'd rather go to a shelter myself. Yes, both of my dogs are purebred & I love them dearly but, my 1st dog was a mutt & he was just as wonderful!!!!!!! I don't care what kind of dogs I have as long as I have them until I die!
I am against (about 90%). While I realize that some breeding programs NEED to exist, I STILL don't think even reputable breeders should be doing it while so many animals DIE.
Every animal that is produced by a breeder (even a totally responsible breeder) that goes on to find its forever home takes away the possibility that a shelter or homeless animal (that has already been born due to irresponsible people) will NOT find its forever home and will more than likely die. There are only SO many homes available. The cycle must STOP!
Like the othes, I am not totally agaianst breeding as a "career" --- I say "career" because I think only those truly dedicated to the advancement of the breed, with the animals health and welfare utmost in their mind, should be able to breed and profit from it. I think that they should need to take a test and become certified/licensed and then have periodic checks from the state to ensure health and safety standards are mainatined. Those that do not have the certification/license would not be able to sell their animals for profit (I understand that if a person's pet had puppies that you ned to sell them for something to pay for vet care and to ensure the person accepting the pup is ready for the respinsiblity the puppy will bring.)
This certification/license would be good foor everyone: the breeders (they would no longer have to defend themselves to others) the pet owners (they can rest in confidence that their pet was bred in a healthful environment) and the state (they would receive the fees generated from the license, fines from health violations... etc.)
Did I make sense? Thats just something I've been thinking about for a while. Hopefully, this would put BYB out of business. If they continued to breed and got caught charging more than what htey needed to cover their costs, and/or the animals were in miserable conditions, they would be able to pay outrageous fine and do jail time.
Ditto.Quote:
Originally posted by Kfamr
I'm not 100% against, although I would love to see people stop breeding until there is no need for animal shelters.
im for breeders.
I agree with this.Quote:
Originally posted by Kfamr
I'm not 100% against, although I would love to see people stop breeding until there is no need for animal shelters.
Ash
I think a good idea would be to have a decreased amount of responsible breeders until shelters empty out. I mean, around here ther are about 5 poodle breeders. I really don't think you need that many to keep the breed going. :(
I just asked mainly because whenever I put a post of my "rabbits for sale" everyone has to jump on it. I am not a backyard breeder, I breed for the betterment of the breed & I show in open & 4-H. There are no animal shelters that have rabbits in them as far as I've found out, & in the state of oregon, they dont enthunzize(sp?) so i am against breeders who just breed to make money, but I raise rabbits for a specific purpose. & i make sure that everyone of those that leves my barn has a good home. Beucase if i was to raise rabbits just to raise money, thats just plain stupid, I raise them to acheive my goal of winning. Most of the time i wont breed the doe unless I feel i cant sell them, have a use for them, or if i dont get reserves.
http://hometown.aol.com/ilm1989/images/im000839.jpg
When I was young I too raised rabbits for breeding and showing. We did what we could to better the breed and I learned a lot about genetics in the process. BUT, I would not go back to doing it today now that I have learned about the severe over population of animals and the extreme numbers that are put to death each year. (and yes pet rabbits are among the statistics). I still do not condemn your actions (so please do not be offended) but think about this (I will use dogs as an example....)
50 states in the union..............
uncountable cities in each state.....................
if as few as 20 (an extremely low number) breeders exist in each state, that is 1,000 breeders.
If each breeder produced 2 litters a year (an extremely low number of litters) that would be 2,000 littes of puppies a year......
If in each litter there are 5 puppies (many breeds would have more) that is a total of at least 10,000 dogs born in one year that need to find placement.
Add to that the dogs bred in Canada, Europe, South America, Mexico, Australia...................and you easliy have 1,000,000 dogs born in a year.
And then there is NEXT year....................
Then add to that all the people who simply do not neuter their pets and have an accidental litter or 2 or 3.................
And add to that those who think they can make money breeding their pets (BYB) and have a litter or 2 or 3...................
When will it stop? Each breeder thinks that what they are doing is VITAL to the survival of the breed. But 50,000 poodle breeders alone are not necessary for the breed's survival!!!
I just did a search on Petfinder and there are 75+ bunnies near you in shelters and rescues. 2877 on petfinder all together.
I am in Oregon and we DO euthanize animals, including rabbits regularly. Our local Humane Society, Greenhill, has several rabbits there often, and while they do not always euthanize if they have crowded conditions they will. They try not to though.Quote:
Originally posted by Snuggles
There are no animal shelters that have rabbits in them as far as I've found out, & in the state of oregon, they dont enthunzize(sp?)
While there are many many homeless pets, and it saddens me I do not think us breeders who are trying to make the animals betters should have to stop just because careless idiots out there. Rats REALLY need work, and a LOT! There are tons and tons of rats who die so early, have major agression issues etc. We NEED more responsible breeders for rats, we really really do. I cannot stand to see rat breeders breeding does at 6 weeks old, and having litter after litter after litter, none of the babies being social and then the mom dies at 8 months due to a mammary tumor and developed severe agression during pregnancy and nursing etc. While we do strive for the perfect show rats, temperament and healthy ALWAYS come first. There are many rat breeders out there who just do not give a damn one way or the other, but I will not stop breeding because people need healthy well adjusted animals, not pets who bite every time you go near them and are in and out of different sicknesses. No pet owner deserves a pet like that and it's our goal to make their pet owning experience as positive as possible. The focus should be on those who exploit the animals, not those who really care to improve the overall animal.
& I guess this is where peoples opinons differ.
May be some opinions but some facts were also just stated. I think it's wrong to breed just to win prizes and such. To me, it sounds like that's why you mainly do it. I don't agree with that at all and that is my opinion.
What I don't understand is Shleter dog's, rats, cats, bunnies hamsters etc. are JUST as good as the ones bred by breeders. WHY do they need to better the breed? Why do we absolutly NEED specific breeds of everything?? Why can't we just have mutts?? It is proven that a mutt bred to a mutt (Not saying you should!!!) is more healthy then a pur-bred bred to a pur-bred (My vet, who breeds Labs BTW, showed me a whole book about it).Quote:
Originally posted by jenluckenbach
Each breeder thinks that what they are doing is VITAL to the survival of the breed.
I just don't understand WHY we need breeds. Yes they are pretty but you can find that breed in a shelter, or a dog just as pretty. Yes, some people want certain temperments but you can find that certain temperment in the shelter. Yes, some people want certain size of dog, but you can find that size in the shelter. I dunno...I probly never will understand :rolleyes: and IF the world ever comes to a place where we acctually are having a problem with not enough dog's. Then why can't we either start new breeds, breed Healthy mutts or make up some kind of a system so we don't become what we were. But, it is very doubtful we will ever come to that place in life.
Snuggles - I don't hate breeders and I'm not really against them, but I think breeders should give back to the shelters. I also think Breeders should (not saying you don't) look around and notice how many animals ARE in shelters, or ARE in life or death situations. There just are not enough shelters! I think if they did, or even spent some time at shelters maybe they would relize how much the rabbit, dog, cats, rat, hamster etc. world NEED more shelters and less animals. (Again, not saying you don't!)
Ash
People can and do argue back and forth time and again about this. Every breeder thinks they are doing it right, and every rescue or shelter person is sick and tired of death.
Opinions aside, however, the hard facts are seen every day in every city .... dogs die, cats die, rabbits die, rats die. In vast numbers, each and every day of the year.
Why? Two reasons ... too many animals and not enough homes, and a careless attitude about pets. This careless attitude ... "Oh, I don't like this one, I'll take it to the shelter and get a different one" ... is brought about because animals are free, cheap, easily available and not at all valued by this society. Supply exceeds demand by a LONG shot, and the value of any commodity where supply exceeds demands drops. Basic Economics 101.
If demand exceeds supply price and value rise. That is the ONLY thing that is going to help animals. All the preaching and whining and crying and protesting in the world will only make a small dent ... supply must fall below or equal to demand for it to change. History has shown this to be true time and again ever since the caveman first learnd to count on his fingers ... and it will be forever true in our society. Less animals bred means a higher value on them. Simple, and true.
The facts are numbers ... math and economics. Emotion and argument aside, let the numbers speak for themselves. Millions of animals die each year because they are cheap and overly available, too many animals - not enough homes. Period.
I agree with Luckies on her explanation of breeding rats. Yes I do realize that there is a problem with rats not having homes, so far I have yet to find one in a shelter in Tucson (and trust me I look often) but I have seen a few in the Phoenix area. However it's not like going to the shelter where you can adopt a healthy dog or cat. Most of the rats that end up at a shelter came from pet stores and not a good breeder. These rats almost always have myco (if you search on google you will see that a large amount of rats have myco) or will develop tumors at a very young age. Good rat breeders work hard on the health of these animals so that there will be lines of rats that don't have myco and aren't prone to tumors. I think people who have never owned rats don't really realize just how common it is for these little guys to get sick. It seems like rats rarely die of old age, myco or tumors usually get to them first.
Overall I do agree with good and responsible breeders, how ever I know that the majority of breeders out there aren't very good.
I agree with Aspen and Misty. I love all dogs, but I don't really see a need to keep breeding all these different breeds of purebreds. Breeders are all into keeping a breed 'alive' while millions of dogs DIE in shelters!
and it bugs me that breeders seem to deny that they are adding to the dog overpopulation. They blame BYBs, puppy mills, ect, when really they are adding more dogs to the population too.
Someone has actually said to me on another board, something along the lines of "I am not adding to the dog overpopulation because people who buy my purebred dogs don't want a dirty mutt from the pound" :mad:
Quote:
Originally posted by jenluckenbach
Every animal that is produced by a breeder (even a totally responsible breeder) that goes on to find its forever home takes away the possibility that a shelter or homeless animal (that has already been born due to irresponsible people) will NOT find its forever home and will more than likely die. There are only SO many homes available. The cycle must STOP!
I totally agree !! I'm very much against breeding. It truly breaks my heart that people would choose to buy a purebred animal over adopting from a shelter. That's very sad. :(
Lisa & Sash
while kennel clubs like AKC make being pretty th epoint of breeds before they made breeds "pretty"(which I personaly hate the look of show dogs) they were different breeds existed for a PURPOSE. and prancing around a ring was never one of those purposes.many breeds are STILL used for there original purpose. border collies are herding dogs, they are a mix of several breeds to creat the perfect working dog. and BCs are still NEEDED today. and any old mutt cannot work like a BC. in fact only 3 in the whole world have EVER been able to prove themselves to be as good as a BC. spanials are still used for hunting and they are nothing like those "pretty" versions that are usless. anyway my point is that their are very good reasons for actual "breeds" to exist. now show dogs have absolutly zero reason to exist, prancing around a ring looking pretty is hardly nessisary in life lol.Quote:
I just don't understand WHY we need breeds. Yes they are pretty...
anyway I am one of the few people FOR breeders. while I am against BYBs and PMs as long as "responsable" breeders make is difficult to get a puppy BYBs and PMs will never go away. what many people consider resposable breeders are what keep BYBs and PMs running. now I know most of you will not agree but think about it. by the standerds of many, a responable breeders is one that is very picky, breeds to the show standerd, and most of all NEVER breeds mixes. well hate to break it to ya but there are plenty of people who want specific mixes and as the responsable breeders wont provide them, the BYBs and PMs WILL. do you honestly believe that denying someone a puppy that they will give up? nope, they TRIED a good breeder, but they were turned down, so they head to a BYB or PM, you mid as well say " sorry you cant have no puppy of mine, but why do you try the pet shop?" as much as you guys would like everyone to go the the shelter, it aint gonna happen.
Agreed - most would rather know the history of an animal before purchasing. One of our dogs is from a breeder & one is from a shelter. & while all dogs are different, I can know that our shelter dog was abused before we got him. Doesnt make me love him any less, but it sure makes it hard to use him in 4h showmanship.Quote:
as much as you guys would like everyone to go the the shelter, it aint gonna happen.
I agree with this, also.Quote:
Originally posted by jenluckenbach
Every animal that is produced by a breeder (even a totally responsible breeder) that goes on to find its forever home takes away the possibility that a shelter or homeless animal (that has already been born due to irresponsible people) will NOT find its forever home and will more than likely die. There are only SO many homes available. The cycle must STOP!
I'm not against (RESPONSIBLE) breeders. I think dogs that do what they were bred for is great. If you stuck a Great Dane out on a field with a bunch of sheep, you're probably not going to get the sheep to go where you want it to go. Stick a (well bred) herding dog out there, and it'll get the job done. This is the only reason why I think breeds should still exist. Of course, not many of us live with lots of land with many sheep to move but there are people with specific things they'd like to do with their dogs. Personally, I'd like a herding/agility/fast flyball/obedience dog with a medium-long coat that can live in an apartment and is people/animal friendly and tolerant with young children. One perfect breed comes to mind and would fit in amazingly IF it is well-bred. Take away the breed, and I'm taking chances of possibly getting a dog that would fit well in my family.
I own two purebreds, one from a breeder and one from a shelter. Both purebreds none the less. Both are complete opposites. One is active, the other acts like a couch potatoe. One learns in minutes, the other learns in weeks. One has herding instinct, the other couldn't herd if his life depended on it. Both are of the same breed yet are extremely different. I know the rescue couldn't have come from a good breeder because the breeder would have taken him back when the family decided they didn't want him anymore. The well bred one is exactly what we had in mind and fits in perfectly with us. The rescue is co-existing well with us (only after months and months of training, which the average pet owner probably wouldn't do).
Anyways, I'm not against responsible breeders. Responsible breeders by my definition also rescue, don't make nearly enough from puppies to make a living out of breeding, get all necessary tests done and only continue on a line of well-bred dogs being exactly what they should be.
However, I do understand where a lot of you are coming from. I'm all for rescuing! I love mixes and I love purebreds. People have different expectations and needs. Some are flexible with what type of dog they want and some are extremely specific. It's a personal preference. For my first dog, I wanted a dog that I knew would have a steady temperment and be what the breed should be. We wanted to raise it from a puppy and have it become a well fitted family member. For the second dog, I was ready for surprises. And surprises, I got. I got aggression and major dominancy. Not what I wanted in my first dog but I felt I was ready for this one, however it turned out.
I'm not against responsible breeders. I'm against puppy mills and bybs who ruin it for all of us.
I hope no one takes that the wrong way. Just my two cents on the breed topic.
Quote:
Originally posted by wolfie
Someone has actually said to me on another board, something along the lines of "I am not adding to the dog overpopulation because people who buy my purebred dogs don't want a dirty mutt from the pound" :mad:
That makes me sick.
I don't think i'll EVER get a dog from a breeder. EVER.
Even to have a dog from the shelter, who will possibly have problems such as aggression, timid, shy and so on... Breaking them out of that and turning them into a happy dog is the most rewarding thing there could ever possibly be. More rewarding than any prize or sum of money. Maybe it's just me, but I enjoy working with my dogs, and I enjoy having to go that extra step to make them into a bouncing happy "pet me pet me!" dog.
My neighbors spent hundreds on their dog, had her flown from Seattle when they purchased her. They've had her for about a year, and she's worse than Nala EVER was at her age.
I'm not so much for responsible breeders, as I said in my first post, I'd much rather see breeding stop until there's no need for dog shelters and rescues. But, i'm much more for responsible breeders than I am PM's and BYB's
*no offense to anyone* but I just can't see why people care about what breed they're getting when dogs, cats, and all sorts of animals are dying in kill shelters.
I cannot be against Ethical breeders,as taht is hoe John Hancock, Rocca Baton , andBJ came to be at The Hotel,as she is excellent,about finding Good Homes,for her Older Cats!
[edit] I deleted my original reply because I figured that people may take some of my points and argue against them, which is not what I was looking for.
I'll leave it like this: I respect all of your opinions and I hope you all respect mine. This is a tricky subject which we will not all agree on.. we all see it a bit differently. No need to try and convince the other to think how we do because it won't happen. However I do believe that there should be more enforcement on taking good care of your pets in order to prevent the overpopulation in shelters, rather than bad mouthing breeders of any kinds. That's the real problem here. [/edit]
Good Breeders, no. BYB and puppy mills, yes. I don't think we got Emma from a very good breeder. I think she was just breeding for the money. Although she is a very good dog. I just look at it like we saved her.
I have never been to a breeder as my kitties are all rescues or strays and it is hard to justify breeders in my own mind - but I also know that it is probably necessary to keep the more exotic bloodlines pure. I think they should have very strict guidelines though, and be professional - not a hobby at all! I really like the aby and fold cats breeds but cannot imagine spending so much money on them when I see so many abandoned kitties at out shelters. I have been to some catshows also - and though they are interesting to me - I always feel a little sorry for the "showcats" - they do not seem at all normal to me. I guess it is OK for folks with lots of money as I know this hobby is very expensive. I will take my "mutts" anytime!!:D