Lost Gillian Sat. am

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03-22-2004, 10:08 AM
lv4dogs

Lost Gillian Sat. am

One of my rats Gillian passed away sometime early Sat. am.
Friday night everyone was happy & healthy, I woke up Sat. am and went to play with the rats, I opened the door & everyone come running except Gillian. I looked in all the hiddy holes, hammocks etc.. she was no where to be found, so I search in the bedding, and there she was burried in aspen. She was not really stiff yet so it must of happened fairly soon before I discovered her. I looked her over and the only abnormalty I could find was that her stomach appered to be slightly bloated *maybe*, they are healthy rats so it may have just apperred that her belly was large, (they aren't fat but not skinny either!). She was born at my house Nov. 11, 2002, which would make almost 1.5 years old. I got her mother from a pet store, pregnant so I kept all the baby girls.

The only thing different that they ate was I gave them a tiny sample of my chicken wing pizza, but they had a sample of the same pizza one week prior) It was from the same pizza place & was not spicy. Other than that nothing new was used near or around them or fed to them. I know some rats may die natural deaths around that age, I just have been extremely lucky as the youngest rat I had that died a natural death was about 3 years of age.

One of my other rats; Crazy Horse is pretty depressed over this. I rescued her a little over a year ago & she was very shy, all the rats treated her as an outcast except for Gillian. They all get along (no fights) but none of my other rats play or sleep with Crazy Horse. I feel so bad for her. She is just sulking around, by herself. Her & Gillian were inseperible. She still gets excited when I offer her a treat, she is acting, eating & pottying fine (except you can tell she is depressed), so I doubt she is sick too, just sad.

I do have a couple extra cages & was thinking about getting her a new friend in hopes that they hit it off. If not, they will either become friends with my currents rats or they can stay in their own cage.
I know I can not replace my sweet Gillian, she was my baby blue dumbo & a real sweetheart. Always wanting to be cuddled. But I can help fill a void in my heart & crazy horses heart. I will misss her ith all my heart but I feel comforted that now she can rest in peace, happy healthy & whole again. Waiting with my other pets up at the bridge, waiiting for the rest of us to join her one day!

This is tough though, as I would like to get one rat at a time, but the new rats(s) would have to be in quarantine, one rat will get lonely, and if for some reason no one gets along I will have to get another to keep that one company. Of course if they dont get along I would like to get another to try to match her with. But I really want to get her a friend, I'm just not ready to add a few right off the bat. But I have a feeling I will have to but don't worry I'm sure that I'll fall in love instantly. LOL
03-22-2004, 10:14 AM
wolfie

I'm sorry about your loss. :( I'm sure it wasn't the pizza though, or anything you did. She just died a natural death. RIP Gillian. :(
03-22-2004, 12:10 PM
luckies4me

I am so sorry for your loss. :(

My rats get pizza all the time and I have never had a problem, so I highly doubt that's what it is. My first guess would be pyometra, if you said her stomach appeared to be bloated. Did she suffer from Myco symptoms at all? Another thing is maybe she ate a piece of fabric and got a blockage. Is there anyway you can have a necropsy done to find out what caused her death? :(
03-22-2004, 01:25 PM
wolfsoul

I'm sorry about Gillian. :( :( :(

What about megacolon???
03-22-2004, 01:29 PM
luckies4me

Quote:

Originally posted by wolfsoul

What about megacolon???

HIGHLY unlikely. Most megacolon rats show symptoms as soon as they are weaned, and even rats with late onset megacolon show symptoms usually by the time they are 6 months old. There would be other obvious signs such as severe bloating to the point where the rat could barely walk, diarrhea and trouble passing stool. The rat would be in a lot of pain and would have shown symptoms long before it would kill him. The point being, if it were megacolon she wouldn't have bloated in one day. It takes a while for it to get severe enough that the rat becomes septic and dies.
03-22-2004, 01:42 PM
lv4dogs

They get pizza all the time too but this was only the second time they had chicken wing pizza which would of been the second time they had blue cheese? They always eat a variety of foods though.

I thought maybe a blockage too, but not sure what it could of been, they had no fabrics in their cage for 2 weeks
(they used up all my old/leftover fabric, that is waht I was going to do sat. is buy more carpet & fabrics), unless it was a partial blockage for a while, but there were never any symptoms of anything they have always been very healthy.

You say pyometra? Wouldn't she most likely have a discharge & probably very smelly too? That is how all the dogs & cats were that we seen with pyometra over the years when I worked at a vets office.

none of my rats had ever had any symptoms of myco or anything. They have always been 100% healthy. (very lucky there, except for the occasional tumor & one deformed leg due to a careless mother rat)

My other rats also seemed kind of bloated for about the first 1-2 hours of sat. am but maybe it just looked that way cause I was paranoid, cause they are fat (not obese or unhealthy) just chubby rats. But not sure if it was in my mind, but a couple hours later they looked fine again & still look good.

Can I get a necropsy done? I was told they animal had to be within 24 hours or so? She is frozen in my freezer, awaiting a thaw so she can be burried near my other furry cuties!
03-22-2004, 01:47 PM
lv4dogs

we must of posted at about the same time, I was just going to reply the same info about mega colon

sorry to be gross, but I'm trying to describe it, this is puzzling me
Like I said, it looked as if she was slightly bloated but they are chubby rats, & she was found laying sideways, so she was just starting to flatten out so her stomach was more sideways than downward as if she were standing. Does that make sense?
But I didn't think they were that fat, but i have been giving them extra food lately.
03-22-2004, 02:02 PM
luckies4me

Quote:

Originally posted by lv4dogs
They get pizza all the time too but this was only the second time they had chicken wing pizza which would of been the second time they had blue cheese?

Ai! Blue cheese is toxic to rats and will kill them. :(
03-22-2004, 02:08 PM
luckies4me

Quote:

Originally posted by lv4dogs

You say pyometra? Wouldn't she most likely have a discharge & probably very smelly too? That is how all the dogs & cats were that we seen with pyometra over the years when I worked at a vets office.

Can I get a necropsy done? I was told they animal had to be within 24 hours or so? She is frozen in my freezer, awaiting a thaw so she can be burried near my other furry cuties!

Ok, the pyometra part. Rats don't really work like our cats and dogs. There are two types of pyometra in rats, closed and open. Open would of course show signs of discharge, but closed is when the vagina actually seals itself up, which is why the uterus becomes swollen with pus. This of course makes the abdomen enlarge. Here is some more information on Pyometra. While Myco is the most common cause, it's not the only one unfortunately.

http://ratguide.com/health/reproductive/pyometra.php

My own rat Honey has been fighting an open pyometra for about a month now. Because it's not too bad, the vets are reluctant to spay her due to her age, but I am looking into another vet who would be willing to get her spayed. I think with her injured back it would be the best thing to do in my opinion.

As far as doing a necopsy, as long as she has beenin the freezer you can still get one done. The latest I have done a necropsy was five days, and especially if you are looking for a clue in the body itself, not in the actual blood, then you *should* be just fine.
03-22-2004, 02:14 PM
lv4dogs

OH MY GOSH, that just ruined my day.:( I had no idea, and all the research I do on rats, I have had them for 17+ years, i cant believe i killed my baby. Oh my gosh I feel so horrible, this is terrible. I am kicking myself in the a** right now. I can't even type much now.
But I do need to know is there anything I should do for the others?
The others are fine, but can the toxins stay in their system for a while? Should I do anything?
03-22-2004, 02:16 PM
lv4dogs

Quote:

Originally posted by luckies4me
Ok, the pyometra part. Rats don't really work like our cats and dogs. There are two types of pyometra in rats, closed and open. Open would of course show signs of discharge, but closed is when the vagina actually seals itself up, which is why the uterus becomes swollen with pus. This of course makes the abdomen enlarge. Here is some more information on Pyometra. While Myco is the most common cause, it's not the only one unfortunately.

http://ratguide.com/health/reproductive/pyometra.php

My own rat Honey has been fighting an open pyometra for about a month now. Because it's not too bad, the vets are reluctant to spay her due to her age, but I am looking into another vet who would be willing to get her spayed. I think with her injured back it would be the best thing to do in my opinion.

As far as doing a necopsy, as long as she has beenin the freezer you can still get one done. The latest I have done a necropsy was five days, and especially if you are looking for a clue in the body itself, not in the actual blood, then you *should* be just fine.

I knew that rats vaginas can seal shut but I thought that the discharge could still seep through. I did know about most of the pyometra symptoms though.
03-22-2004, 02:18 PM
luckies4me

Don't beat yourself up over it please. You didn't know, and you can't blame yourself for something you weren't educated on. It was an accident. :( Please don't feel bad. Plus, you don't even know for sure if that is what it was, unless the others did have some symptoms. Anything with blue cheese though is bad, even older food can kill rats very quickly. It was just an accident, and now you know so you don't make the same mistake twice.

I am not sure if the toxins will stay in their system or not, but I will try to do some research for you right now and find out. I am assuming they will be just fine as long as they are eating, drinking, moving etc. If they do get a bloated tummy though you may want to take them to the vet. Let me dig up some info on blue cheese................

Again, I am so sorry for your loss. :(
03-22-2004, 02:18 PM
lv4dogs

Can they determine if the blue cheese caused her death now, I mean the toxins would probably show up in her blood but she passed a few days ago, would it still show up? I just called my vet but the Dr that sees rats is out to lunch (late lunch) I have to call back in a half hour. I really want to find out if it is I that caused her death.
03-22-2004, 02:19 PM
luckies4me

Quote:

Originally posted by lv4dogs
I knew that rats vaginas can seal shut but I thought that the discharge could still seep through. I did know about most of the pyometra symptoms though.

The link I gave will give you more details on the difference between open and closed pyometras. :)
03-22-2004, 02:20 PM
luckies4me

Quote:

Originally posted by lv4dogs
Can they determine if the blue cheese caused her death now, I mean the toxins would probably show up in her blood but she passed a few days ago, would it still show up? I just called my vet but the Dr that sees rats is out to lunch (late lunch) I have to call back in a half hour. I really want to find out if it is I that caused her death.

You know, to tell you the truth I have no idea if it would show up on a blood test or not, but if they can still use the blood they may be able to find something. I really have no idea. I mean, I don't know how they would go about doing a test to check? :confused:
03-22-2004, 02:30 PM
Katsmeow

I am so sorry for your loss of Gillian. I've had rats for about 25 yrs and I usually lost the females cuz of tumors, some of old age. It never gets easier. But, don't beat yourself up. I've learned alot just by reading your message and the responses! Now, we know. That won't happen again.:( Still, so sorry.
03-22-2004, 02:40 PM
lv4dogs

I just called my 2 rat specialists vets (they aren't too specialized but a lot more so than any other vet) but one did not even know about blue cheese toxins & the other did but they did not know what they could do to test for it, they say it must show up as some sort of toxin in thier blood but they say that the blood is probably too corrugated (sp?) probably by now. They also said they werent' sure what to do with my remaining rats, they are looking into it now & will call me back w/ any info. They say for now to just make sure they are drinking lots to flush out their system so I added pedialyte to their water to make it more nutritious & to to taste better so they drink more.
03-22-2004, 02:43 PM
luckies4me

The only thing I have been able to find is to give them a little fluids, and that's pretty much it. :( Sorry I can't be of more help to you!
03-22-2004, 02:47 PM
Katsmeow

Dear iv4dogs, That's the first, if only, thing I thought of - that lots of water, fluids, to flush systems out is the best thing for everything! I'm from Long Island - where is your town?
03-22-2004, 02:50 PM
lv4dogs

Quote:

Originally posted by luckies4me
The only thing I have been able to find is to give them a little fluids, and that's pretty much it. :( Sorry I can't be of more help to you!

thanks thats all i can find so far too. I'm giving them pedialyte & they are drinking it like no tomorrow. Which is good. They seem to be doing ok, but they do still look a bit bloated. No vets have any opening until tomorrow & they say all they would do is give fluids anywways. They are looking into vitamin k to see if that would help.
03-22-2004, 02:53 PM
lv4dogs

Quote:

Originally posted by Katsmeow
Dear iv4dogs, That's the first, if only, thing I thought of - that lots of water, fluids, to flush systems out is the best thing for everything! I'm from Long Island - where is your town?

thanks!
I'm about 6-7 miles from Rochester NY, I'm right on the macedon/fairport border