Bush calls for an amendment to the constitution for same sex marriage ban.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...age/index.html
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Bush calls for an amendment to the constitution for same sex marriage ban.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/...age/index.html
Interesting. Another touchy subject. I don't personally agree with same sex marriages but does that mean we should forbid everyone to do it just because it doesn't set right with us?
I'm in total agreement with same-sex marriages. I believe the love two men (or two women) share can be just as deep and loving as a heterosexual couple. Why not let them share the bond of marriage??
I am not offended by homosexuality in the least. I do not believe it is the right of the government to enforce its morals on the populace. I think if two people want to marry legally, they should be able to marry legally.
Homosexual couples are not looking for religious acceptance here. They are looking for legal acceptance and the right to have an heir. This is America where there is a separation of Church and State, right? Two human beings, pledging their lives to one another. End of story. As it stands, two men can love one another and share their entires lives, yet when one is on life support, they are unable to make decisions for their partner. When one dies, the other is not entitled to the social security. It just isn't the government's business to morally judge this way. If a church doesn't want to marry gays- then fine. They don't have to. But a judge should. The law should be colorblind, genderblind and without homophobia. Some might say we treat murderers and child molesters with more respect than two homosexuals.
I think commitment and longevity of marriage can't be any worse with gays than with straight people. Lord know's we've made a big enough mess of marriage and child rearing. For straights to say their better at it is rediculous.
Whew, sorry to rant. This is huge for me. Thanks for bringing it up. This has been bugging me since it got in the news.
AND I'm a republican!
Ditto!Quote:
Originally posted by 2kitties
I am not offended by homosexuality in the least. I do not believe it is the right of the government to enforce its morals on the populace. I think if two people want to marry legally, they should be able to marry legally.
I think its nothing but an election-year ploy by Bush. I also think its a mis-use of the constitition.
Why does everybody keep playing this old subject? Who cares? What goes on behind closed doors is THEIR business, not ours. I happen to love my husband and would fight tooth and nail if somebody told me our love was wrong... why do people think that same-sex relationships would work any differently? Who has the right to say what makes someone else happy?
I do not find this a moral issue in the least. It is merely an issue of two people being happy together. People get enraged when the issue of <ahem> relations enter the debate. I'm sure the most prim and proper person has something they condemn in public but enjoy behind closed doors. We are human, we are far from perfect. If you are going to quote the Bible as form of rebuttal or proof of its wrong-ness, then "let he has not sinned cast the first stone."
I tried, twice, to comment, and I failed, both times. I just try to be open minded about this subject.
Today, one of my favorite people on another site showed pictures of her wedding dress, and also the wedding dress of her partner. That was a test for me, as I didn't know that she was involved in a homosexual relationship, nor that she was planning a wedding.
Maybe I'm old fashioned. Maybe George Bush is too, but at least he knows where he stands, which I have yet to grasp for myself. I want to be accepting, but I don't understand it all yet. :o
I'll tell you what my fanatically Christian in-laws say. They say it's a sin. But then I point out that so is adultery, drinking (to them), so is envy, cussing in their book will send you straight to hell. LMAO. ( They just love me BTW :D ) None of which require a constitutional amendment. I am a Christian, too. Just a different (read: more tolerant, as Jesus wants us to be) Christian than they are.Quote:
Originally posted by catnapper
Why does everybody keep playing this old subject? Who cares? What goes on behind closed doors is THEIR business, not ours. I happen to love my husband and would fight tooth and nail if somebody told me our love was wrong... why do people think that same-sex relationships would work any differently? Who has the right to say what makes someone else happy?
I personally think that if two consenting adults can find love, then more power to them! Who the hell cares if they're the same sex, different sexes or two hermaphrodites? Jeez!!
That's so stupid! Who cares if the couple is homosexual or heterosexual?
posted by 2kitties:
"The law should be colorblind, genderblind and without homophobia."
I agree.
I have to agree with almost everyone else here. If they want to get married let them. I think, (which this might be over the top) if two people want to get married let them or don't let anyone at all. We are in the USA the land of the free. The person you love and want to marry shouldn't be questioned by are government. If a gay man or women wants to get a job and they can't because they are gay that is against the law. Getting married should be the same way. I know at least 2 gay people and they are one of the nicest and funniest people that I have ever met. Just because they are gay doesn't make them less of a person than we are. JMO
Katie
I understand. I grew up in a very close-minded family. I don't know where I came from, as my family is biggoted and opinionated.Quote:
Originally posted by Logan
I tried, twice, to comment, and I failed, both times. I just try to be open minded about this subject. I want to be accepting, but I don't understand it all yet. :o
When I entered college, it was quite a culture shock. I had never met a gay person, let alone became friends with them. I am an interior designer, so I got used to working with gay men real fast - stereo-typical, I know, but true. I worked for the world's best boss. He happened to be gay. I loved him and his "husband" I told them that if they ever broke up, that I was more than willing to take the the ex (oooh, he was as sweet as he was good looking!)
I lived with my parents and when it was time to move out and move on, a gay coworker and I wanted to get an appartment together... when I saw that he wanted the two largest rooms (one for him, the other for his clothes) I declined:D He was my best friend for a while and introduced me to the gay culture - I was what they call the "fag-hag" sounds funny, but it was said affectionately. At that time in my life, I needed to have relationships with men that were "safe" as I was hurt very badly in love. I could flirt and laugh and not worry about being attacked at the end of the night.
What I learned was that they are human just like us with all the same wants, needs, desires. Its just that what fulfills their desires is different from ours. They never judged me for being attracted to men... imagine the world being reversed and that "gay was the way" and imagine how you'd feel if the gay world condemned you for being straight.
This issue is very near and dear to my heart because it was my experiences with my gay friends and coworkers that taught me the most about myself and life.
LOL, I am the ultimate Fag Hag! Please people don’t get mad, this is what my gay friends call straight women who hang out with gay men. I just adore my gay friends.Quote:
Originally posted by catnapper
I was what they call the "fag-hag" sounds funny, but it was said affectionately. At that time in my life, I needed to have relationships with men that were "safe" as I was hurt very badly in love. I could flirt and laugh and not worry about being attacked at the end of the night.
This issue is very near and dear to my heart because it was my experiences with my gay friends and coworkers that taught me the most about myself and life.
I agree that having gay friends has made me a more sensitive and open minded person. Just to be a small part of the lives of nice people, whether gay or straight is a privilege. needless to say, the in-laws hyperventilate if I mention my gay friends around my sister in laws kids. That's so sad to me. They freak if I even mention Will & Grace or Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. Their kind of intolerant 'Christianity' makes me sick. :mad:
So Logan, I think it's wonderful that you're trying becoming more open to things like this, things that you don't understand or that are outside of your comfort zone. :)
Ahh yes. Another Christian hating thread. How original.
First off, don't give me this. Did you know that Muslims, Hindus and all other religions also condemn gay marriage? Did you also know that no culture or religion in the history of the world has condoned gay marriage? Hmmm...could there be a reason for that? But, wait, let's just blame all christians okay? It's easier that way. And it's very original.
Bush is not changing the constitution. The constitution has always defined marriage as a bond between a man and a woman. Always.
This is honestly way overplayed.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kevinrats
Bush is not changing the constitution. The constitution has always defined marriage as a bond between a man and a woman. Always.
ahh, kevin, which amendment in the constution are you citing?
I have a few gay friends. I too enjoy being with them. But first marraige was "invented" in the bible so it is a religous ceramony. a civil uioun is a govenmental and legal part . So a wedding is a relious ceramony, so it is a moral situation. I have lots of stright friends who have a civil ceramiony.
Logan I too am old fashioned, my gay friends all accept my ideas we just don't talk about it and I don't comment on their lifestyles . we just enjoy the company of each person in the group.
This must be why I seen a sign on a nearby church that says:
"God made Adam & Even, not Adam & Steve"
I just couldn't believe it:(
I personally don't have a problem with it. If your in love, who cares what sex you are.
Frankly, I don't care about Christianity, Muslim, Hinduism or whatever. Seriously, they mean so little to me I could care less.Quote:
Originally posted by kevinrats
Ahh yes. Another Christian hating thread. How original.
First off, don't give me this. Did you know that Muslims, Hindus and all other religions also condemn gay marriage? Did you also know that no culture or religion in the history of the world has condoned gay marriage? Hmmm...could there be a reason for that? But, wait, let's just blame all christians okay? It's easier that way. And it's very original.
Bush is not changing the constitution. The constitution has always defined marriage as a bond between a man and a woman. Always.
This is honestly way overplayed.
What I do care about is two people in this war torn, hectic, violent world. Two people who care enough about each other to make a commitment to be true and faithful to each other. To care for each other in sickness, hard times and adversity. If these two people happen to be the same sex I could care less and frankly it's no one else's business. More power to them for their strength and conviction.
They are people and Americans and they deserve legal rights, too. They shouldn't be treated like second class citizens just because they don't live the way you want them to.
JMHO
Sorry, I got my words mixed up. Scratch that last part.
Chesirekatt, thats what you believe.
I just have one more thing. If what people do behind closed doors stays there, and its "their own private" business, then why are we fighting over it? If that was true, then why are gay people fighting? Shouldn't they just stay behind closed doors? Its not behind closed doors, its out in the open, and people have made it everyone's business.
Firstly, I'd suggest when you address someone you make sure to spell their name correctly.Quote:
Originally posted by kevinrats
Chesirekatt, thats what you believe.
I just have one more thing. If what people do behind closed doors stays there, and its "their own private" business, then why are we fighting over it? If that was true, then why are gay people fighting? Shouldn't they just stay behind closed doors? Its not behind closed doors, its out in the open, and people have made it everyone's business.
Secondly, there are legal rights and ramifications that come with marriage. People need legal protection should something happen to their spouse. This is the issue.
BTW: Welcome to PT.
From what I've heard though, (if I'm wrong, don't rub it in my face too much) gay partners get almost all the benefits of marriage.
Yes, don't you love idiots like me? I'm sure I'm such a pleasure to have on the forum. Sorry. I love you guys! :D
Ah, gotta love that ignore feature.
Ouch!
I am one that honestly can say that I am not going to put somebody down because of what they believe or who the prefer to love. Love is love, no matter who it is. I hate broken hearts!
There is just too many things going on against the homosexual population. Just like with the one friend of one of our members who was beaten because he preferred his own sex. Sorry, but I just don't believe in violence. When they are beaten to the point that they are almost dead, tell me how is that right?? My god, this is a human being beaten to death for something that he or she believes. IMO, its just as wrong, NO! Its more wrong to murder and practice violence! Nobody deserves this kind of treatment!
I say let them live their own lives! LIVE! And Love! Whoever you want to love, I am not going to judge who you pick to be your partner for life. My god, even some of us with children don't like who they pick out to marry! I would love to pick out who my daughter married, but then she would not be happy with the person I picked out! That is what I want for my children, happiness!
Willie
I want to thank those of you who responded to my post. It is hard for me. I am conservative in nature, and this subject is hard for me. I don't have openly "gay" friends. Although one of my best friends has a daughter who is gay, and I enjoy being around her and her partner and have never waivered in that.
I support our President, and I appreciate the fact that he is much more grounded in his beliefs than I am. :o I'm going to try to figure it all out, but either way, I will never pass judgement on anyone. I promise.
Take away the whole taboo aspect of this being gay. We are talking about two human beings that want to share everything life has to offer. Let me try to put the legal aspect of it into proportion:
I am married to a wonderful man that was married before. His first marriage produced three kids. the first wife decided she liked BOTH men and women and left him to play with both. She gave up complete control of the kids. She was responsible for Child Support. Well, ten years later, she has remarried too and has decided not to pay her child support even though she is still legally responsible. She is over $20,000 behind in CS. She hasn't seen or contacted the kids in over three years. When I try to contact the courts to find out why she hasn't been paying, and why she's not being investigated, I am told that I am nobody because the case does not conern me. How? I am in this marriage. I live with these kids and am raising them as my own. I spend all of my time, money, love on them. How could I possiby be nothing? Simple: the laws are written in such a way that I have no power and am not recognised. Sure, I am married to my husband (duh) but my rights regarding the children are nil, and that sucks. I am not asking to take the kids away from her - she can come see them if she wanted to. I'm asking for the right to fight for what the kids deserve from her. My husband is so hurt by this woman that he lets her walk all over him... he knows that he needs me to fight since I have not been hurt in that way.... but I am useless. My hands are tied.
Imagine now, if your whole relationship was that way.
Good point, Catnapper. I have a similar situation, in that I can do nothing in regards to my husband's ex and the decisions about his children either. Darn it! I am opinionated and want to state my case! Although I go through nothing like you do, I still completely understand the comparison you are making and that's why I'm ok with "unions" between two people, regardless of their sex, so that they can be recogognized in legal proceedings, insurance, medical emergencies, etc. It's just the official "marriage" part that I am having trouble with. :o But I'm trying.
I tried not to respond but couldn't do it. I have no strong feelings about the issue of gay marriages, but I do have strong feelings about facts so....
at this time the US Constitution says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about marriage or marriage being between a man and a woman. Nothing, nada, nil.
Does a homosexual couple enjoy the sames rights as a married heterosexual couple? NO. I am married. If I or my husband becomes incapacitated we have the right to visit each other in the hospital, make decisions about the care of each other. A gay couple does not.
My husband and I file a joint tax return and enjoy tax benefits as a result.
Our employers can offer us spousal coverage on medical, dental, etc. benefits. IF an employer offers such coverage to the partner of a gay employee, it is taxable income to the employee.
If I or my husband die without a will, there are rules that govern the estate and enable us to inherit with minimal effort. Not so if we were not married.
The issue is what is the definition of marriage? Is it like a corporation -- that is establishing a legal entity -- or a religious ceremony? or some combination of both? And what is the governments role regarding marriage?
Rather than react from a religious or emotional perspective I would like to see a debate on the definition of a marriage.
I am much more offended by these fly by Hollywood marriages and the little value that people have today in marriage. I read an article on two 80 somthing year old women who had been together for 51 years and they were finally able to marry. It touched my heart, and made me sad that they had to wait that long. I don't care who gets married to whom. As long as it is done out of love and there are values and effort put into the marriage.
Beautifully said!Quote:
Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
I tried not to respond but couldn't do it. I have no strong feelings about the issue of gay marriages, but I do have strong feelings about facts so....
at this time the US Constitution says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about marriage or marriage being between a man and a woman. Nothing, nada, nil.
Does a homosexual couple enjoy the sames rights as a married heterosexual couple? NO. I am married. If I or my husband becomes incapacitated we have the right to visit each other in the hospital, make decisions about the care of each other. A gay couple does not.
My husband and I file a joint tax return and enjoy tax benefits as a result.
Our employers can offer us spousal coverage on medical, dental, etc. benefits. IF an employer offers such coverage to the partner of a gay employee, it is taxable income to the employee.
If I or my husband die without a will, there are rules that govern the estate and enable us to inherit with minimal effort. Not so if we were not married.
The issue is what is the definition of marriage? Is it like a corporation -- that is establishing a legal entity -- or a religious ceremony? or some combination of both? And what is the governments role regarding marriage?
Rather than react from a religious or emotional perspective I would like to see a debate on the definition of a marriage.
BTW, I am a Christian, as well as most of my family. None of us have a problem with homosexuality. I don't think it is anyone's place to judge. IF homosexuality is a sin, I will leave that between God and the people. I'd much rather discover that my son is gay then that he's commited violent crimes, used drugs, etc...If a person's biggest sin is loving another...then they've done pretty dang good.
Well said Tonya!Quote:
I'd much rather discover that my son is gay then that he's commited violent crimes, used drugs, etc...If a person's biggest sin is loving another...then they've done pretty dang good.
Well said Tonya :D
Not able to comment at the moment but will do so later.
Just in case this was directed at me, since I brought up the Christianity issues, this is what I said:Quote:
Originally posted by kevinrats
Ahh yes. Another Christian hating thread. How original.
First off, don't give me this. Did you know that Muslims, Hindus and all other religions also condemn gay marriage? Did you also know that no culture or religion in the history of the world has condoned gay marriage? Hmmm...could there be a reason for that? But, wait, let's just blame all christians okay? It's easier that way. And it's very original.
Bush is not changing the constitution. The constitution has always defined marriage as a bond between a man and a woman. Always.
This is honestly way overplayed.
Notice that I'm a Christian too? ;) Weird for me to start a self hating thread, huh?Quote:
Originally posted by micki76
I'll tell you what my fanatically Christian in-laws say. They say it's a sin. But then I point out that so is adultery, drinking (to them), so is envy, cussing in their book will send you straight to hell. LMAO. ( They just love me BTW :D ) None of which require a constitutional amendment. I am a Christian, too. Just a different (read: more tolerant, as Jesus wants us to be) Christian than they are.
I personally think that if two consenting adults can find love, then more power to them! Who the hell cares if they're the same sex, different sexes or two hermaphrodites? Jeez!!
my family is the same way tonya.. my parents dont agree with same sex marriges though.. i am kinda iffy about it.. but i dont have a prob with same sex couples.Quote:
Originally posted by Tonya
BTW, I am a Christian, as well as most of my family. None of us have a problem with homosexuality. I don't think it is anyone's place to judge. IF homosexuality is a sin, I will leave that between God and the people. I'd much rather discover that my son is gay then that he's commited violent crimes, used drugs, etc...If a person's biggest sin is loving another...then they've done pretty dang good.
This is the reason I belive they should be alowed to marry.Quote:
Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
Does a homosexual couple enjoy the sames rights as a married heterosexual couple? NO. I am married. If I or my husband becomes incapacitated we have the right to visit each other in the hospital, make decisions about the care of each other. A gay couple does not.
My husband and I file a joint tax return and enjoy tax benefits as a result.
Our employers can offer us spousal coverage on medical, dental, etc. benefits. IF an employer offers such coverage to the partner of a gay employee, it is taxable income to the employee.
If I or my husband die without a will, there are rules that govern the estate and enable us to inherit with minimal effort. Not so if we were not married.
I have some friends, life partners for 22 years, when one them was shot in the line of duty (law officer) my friend was left with nothing for her 22 years of faithfull love. She had no rights at the hospital, they had to wait till family members flew in. There was no benefits for her, that other officers spouses recive. For 22 year she was rewarded with nothing, but the lose of her loved one. It was so hard to watch her go through this, she loved Sue as I love my husband and who's to say that she doesn't deserve the same rights, I or my husband have if one of us passed. Just because they where both female does not take away from their bond or thier 22 years as partners.
Intill I went through this with her, I would have said "Whats the big deal, just live toghter and be happy no piece of paper can make a difference" Boy was I wrong back then, that little piece of paper would have made a big difference in their lifes.
Where in the heck did that person pull "Christian Hating" out of?
I read every single post, and I did not see one person even seems as if they hated Christians.
I see nothing wrong with same sex marriages. I am offended and see something wrong with the people, like Britney and J.Lo playing marriage as if it's a game. It's not.
Honestly, i've never labeled or considered myself Gay, but if I was to fall in love with another female, no religion's beliefs, homophobes and so on are going to stop me from loving that person.
I really don't see why some religions think of it badly. If two people of the same sex want to marry, want to love eachother, how is it going to hurt them or anyone else?
It may 'break' their beliefs or break what 'God' says, but not everyone has the same beliefs. So there's no reason to stop them. Because no one's stopping them from believing in God.
I fail to see why the heterosexual majority continues to feel so threatened by homosexuals? What is so fear-inducing or threatening about a gay couple, that the heterosexual community has to get so worked up about them?
If homosexuality is a "sin" as your religion defines it, then so be it. That is a matter that God will address on judgement day. I doubt very seriously that God needs anyone's assistance to define what is or is not a sin. There are many "sins" that do not require Constitutional amendments in this country. In addition, there is no official state religion in the USA. Separation of church and state should apply. Legislating one group's morality has never worked. Prohibition is one example.
Why would a same-sex marriage possibly have any effect on any heterosexual person in the country? How would anyone possibly be affected negatively by this? We are all only affected by our own marriages. If Mary and John get married, does it affect you somehow? No. If Steve and John get married, does it affect you somehow? No.
There are heterosexual couples making a mockery out of the word "marriage" every day. There will be same-sex couples doing the same thing. There are same-sex couples who have been loving, faithful partners for decades, and would be wonderful marriage partners. There are heterosexual couples that are the same. What's the difference, to you and me?
I would personally MUCH rather live next door to a gainfully employed, law-abiding same-sex married couple any time, than a house full of screeching white trash or a crack house.
In the past, women were not allowed to vote or own property. They had no legal rights. The Bible says this is how it should be. Thankfully, our nation's leaders were a little more open minded than that. In the past, interracial marriage was not allowed, schools were segregated, "witches" were burned at the stake. Banning same-sex marriage is the 21st century version of these dark issues. Hopefully, it won't take too terribly long to see the light.
Amen! Amen! Amen!Quote:
Originally posted by Twisterdog
Why would a same-sex marriage possibly have any effect on any heterosexual person in the country? How would anyone possibly be affected negatively by this? We are all only affected by our own marriages. If Mary and John get married, does it affect you somehow? No. If Steve and John get married, does it affect you somehow? No.
There are heterosexual couples making a mockery out of the word "marriage" every day. There will be same-sex couples doing the same thing. There are same-sex couples who have been loving, faithful partners for decades, and would be wonderful marriage partners. There are heterosexual couples that are the same. What's the difference, to you and me?
I consider myself christian although I'm not exactly 'traditional' and don't attend church regularly but I do have my beliefs and pray often. I have my own way to speak with god. With that said, I support same sex relationships/marriages. It's supposed to be a sin but god also wants you to be happy. Finding that special someone who means the world to you is hard enough. Why would you restrict them from certain things just because they've found someone else who's the same sex as them? Love is love. Marriage should be open to any couple regardless of sex. If two people are in love, why stop them from having the same privilages as same-sex couples?