Banning docking of tails......in nz....

This is the first time I have ever posted on the dog site, but thought this might be something worth debating.

At the moment in New Zealand they are proposing to put a bill throught parliment to ban the docking of dog's tails, they say its cruel and un-necessary, of course dog owner's are up in arm's about this, stating the reasons for it etc.

I am interested in your points of view, most dogs are done as puppies, infact to do it older is very painful,(this is what the article said), so do you have a dog with a docked tail? do you consider it cruel?

I have no opinion on this (for a change) lol, not knowing anything about it at all or owning a doggie!

I wish they'd bann them here, and bann ear cropping!!

I have nothing against tail docking/ear cropping so I guess I disagree with that new bill. How are they going to show the dogs that need their ears cropped in show if they ban ear cropping?
Tail docking is a big one though..I do not think it's required to have a dog's tail docked in show. Dogs such as Border Collies, Aussies, and other dogs get their tails docked as pups because they can get so pumped up they can actually injure the tail.
So, please keep us updated if anything happens. :)

I have not heard of ear cropping Kay-ann, why do they do that? of course we could carry it further, our lambs and cows have their tails docked, to keep them clean etc, but is that cruel as well? it was not always done, as I grew up on a farm, we never docked our cows, but now everyone seems to.

I Will follow the news and see what happens with it, actually its one of my local mps who I have met that is trying to push the bill through, be interesting to see what happens, we have many changes happening in our country, would not suprise me if this goes ahead, soon we will have no rights it seems, like I said I am not for or against it, as I am not informed enough to have an opinion, but it seems everything is subject to legislation these days.

I think ear cropping for the most part, is a cosmetic thing. Tail cropping on the other hand, I'm iffy about. I've heard of some breeds being known for clearing coffee tables, giving bruises and hurting their own tail. If that was the reason for the docking, I support it. If it's for a cosmetic purpose, I'm against it.

Oh on ALL animals? I thought you meat just dogs because it was in Dog General. :p
Yeah, I think tail docking on sheep and cows is cruel. Why? Just to keep them clean? You don't give them baths normally anyways, right?

Carole, ear cropping is a surgically done procedure that cuts off some cardilage (sp?) of the ear to make it stand erect in stead of flopped. After surgery, the ears are taped for however long to keep the ers in place. As a result, the ears look like this:
http://www.manchesterterrier.org/ima...opped_ears.jpg
http://www.hildydanekennels.com.au/images/magnus1.jpg

It is normally done for show. Pit Bulls, Great danes, Dobes, Shnauzers, Boxers, and other breeds usually have it done.
I hope I eplained it right. :p

Foam the ban is being proposed just for Dogs, not all animals, the point I am making is why not all animals, what is different about dogs than cows or sheep (if it is indeed cruel) I think the idea for sheep and cows is to prevent faecal matter clumping in that area, and them getting fly blown, that's what I mean about keeping clean, but still the poor things cannot swat the flys away with such a short tail.

eewh I think ear -cropping is ghastly!!!

I honestly don't see the point of it...what's wrong with a natural tail or natural ears?

While looking through some Doberman rescue sites, I came across plenty of Dobies with natural tails and ears...and I thought they looked gorgeous. I, personally, prefer the natural idea. :)

The only way I really condone any docking or cropping is if it is for a clear medical/health purpose.

Oh..haha once again I am lost. :o

Ear cropping is normally only done for showing dogs, but when it is done only for appearance (as Ashley said) I think it's cruel. It doesn't effect the dog's hearing though.

I wish they would ban both ear cropping and dail docking in the US. I think both are pretty much for cosmetic purpose and unnecasary. Althought docking I'm less worried about as some dogs(that are normally docked, but have been left natural) seriously hurt their tails and have to have them docked when they are older because of the injury and it is much more painful then

The "show people" need to be educated enough to realise that dogs shouldn't have to go through that just because they think it looks good. If I had to do that to my dog just to show him, he wouldn't be shown. I think it's vain and I think the law should be passed in U.S. for tails and ears. If there were truly health problems, that's the only way I'd consider it.

im neutral about the subject. i personally like the look of...

cropped
dobie
pit bull
argentine dogo
great dane
boxer

docked
cocker spaniel
rottie
boxer
dobie

I like the all natural, especially my Pitties.

Much, Much cuter with floppy ears and a wagging tail!

I HATE cropped ears. It's completely unnecesary.

Docking of tails atleast has a tiny bit of reasoning.

There are some legitimate reasons for tail docking, I guess especially on some sporting/hunting breeds, but if it isn't going to serve a specific function I would rather see a natural tail.

Ear cropping I totally don't like or agree with. The UKC does not crop their dogs' ears even for the show ring. I know it used to be done in some fighting dogs to help prevent an ear getting bitten or torn, easier for a dog to grab ahold of a floppy ear and very painful as a lot of nerves in the ears. I much prefer natural ears. I think some people get used to seeing the prick ears and like them better. Just as if I suddenly saw a purebred German shepherd with floppy ears I probably wouldn't prefer it over pricked ears, but a GSD ears are natural and that is the key. It isn't natural, there's no reason other than cosmetics, unless a dog is going to be fighting... and if that's going to be happening that's a whole other much more serious issue.

Look at how adorable this Dobie is with ALL natural ears and tail!
http://korax.hemsida.net/galleri/med...Valla_sitt.JPG
http://korax.hemsida.net/galleri/medium/m_korax_sta.jpg
http://korax.hemsida.net/galleri/med...errevad_1x.jpg

Absolutely beautiful!

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Foam
Oh..haha once again I am lost. :o

Ear cropping is normally only done for showing dogs, but when it is done only for appearance (as Ashley said) I think it's cruel. It doesn't effect the dog's hearing though.

---

So what is the difference? Isn't it done on show dogs for the sake of appearance? How can it be a breed standard if it is done surgically? Shouldn't breed standards be how the breed is naturally? Makes absolutely no sense to me.

I don't believe in ear cropping or tail docking. In my opinion, the argument made that they could have a future injury to their tail is ridiculous. It is the equivilent of amputating everyones big toe because one day some people might stub it and it could get infected.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by clara4457
So what is the difference? Isn't it done on show dogs for the sake of appearance? How can it be a breed standard if it is done surgically? Shouldn't breed standards be how the breed is naturally? Makes absolutely no sense to me.

---

I TOTALLY AGREE!

I hate tail docking and ear cropping with a passion. IMO, dogs look much better without it.

I'm sure ear cropping is painful after surgery, and complications can occur. I think any "disfiguring" to a dog is unnecessary, besides spaying and neutering of course.

I think people should just keep the natural look, its way cuter, and less painful.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Foam
Dogs such as Border Collies, Aussies, and other dogs get their tails docked as pups because they can get so pumped up they can actually injure the tail.
So, please keep us updated if anything happens. :)

---

I've never heard of border collies getting docked as puppies to prevent tail injuries. ??

And most aussies are born with natural bobbed tails, no docking involved.

There are many many breeds that are prone to "happy tail" great danes, and grey hounds being two of them, and they are not normally docked breeds.

That being said. I am not against either tail docking or ear cropping. Yes it is for looks only. But I like how it looks.

I can't help but find it upsetting that we mutilate a creature because we like how it looks. It isn't like cutting their hair a certain way, or their nails. We are cutting through their flesh and bone, for no other reason other than for looks...

I really really try to be open minded on issues, but this one I just can't. We are slicing off pieces of their body for a look. It's not like spaying or neutering that prevents unwanted puppies and reduces risk of cancer, etc.

I totally agree! Like I said, it's very vain to do it just because "you like how it looks". I find that very disturbing. Maybe we need to move this to the dog house.

Quote:

---

How are they going to show the dogs that need their ears cropped in show if they ban ear cropping?

---

Then the shows in NZ will allow animals with natural tails and ears to be entered in shows.

I agree with K9soul,
If their is a legitimate reason for docking the tail
that is not cosmetic, than it does not bother me.

Cosmetic reasons for ears and tail, I say, go natural. :)

Clara-- It isn't the breed standard, it's the way the breed is shown. For apperance in the /show ring./ :)
Shelteez-- Border Collie Rescue in Arizona has docked a few tails due to injury. I've seen plenty of Border Collies with docked tails.
Carole-- I see. That's good. :)

It's not like I'm against natural ways, I'm just trying to explain the way it is in the show ring, and the standards there.

I see nothing wrong with docking or cropping. Yes, it is a procedure done for looks, the show ring, n' for the protection of some breeds.

I see no reason in trying to change something that is done in so many breeds for so many years....I just can't see it happening.

Docking is done when a puppy is around 3 to 4 days of age. Cropping is done at around 7-9weeks...depending on the weight n' size of the puppy.

I got my Dobermans ears cropped at 8 weeks. When he came home he was in NO pain at ALL. The post may bother them for a while, but they get use to it. I don't see were this is a cruel or mean practice at all, but then that is MY opinion.

That being said....I like the looks of cropping n' docking. I just don't see a group of people trying to change everyone's minds about the procedure.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by K9soul
There are some legitimate reasons for tail docking, I guess especially on some sporting/hunting breeds, but if it isn't going to serve a specific function I would rather see a natural tail.

Ear cropping I totally don't like or agree with.

---

I agree.


The old docking/cropping debate again. Here's my two cents worth ....


Tail docking is done at a VERY young age. I've seen it done, plenty of times. It is done before the cartlidge in the tail hardens. It is NOT torture or agony. It is just like getting a human baby boy circumcised. Not totally medically necessary, but not cruel and evil, either. And done so quickly at such a young age that it is forgotten in less than a minute.

There ARE legitimate reasons for docking tails, although most is done for cosmetic reasons. Some hunting dogs, terriers, some herding dogs have all traditionally had their tails docked for real, working reasons.

I own eight dogs that "should" have their tails docked, according to tradition or breed standard - a cocker spaniel, an ACD, and six terriers. Of the eight, only four have actually had their tails docked, all before I got them. I like the look of docked tails on my terriers MUCH better than natural tails. However, I don't like it so much that I would cut off one of their tails as adults. I'm glad they had it done as puppies, though. And I'm SO glad that my cocker had her tail done. Sorry, a cocker with a tail looks like a mutt to me.

And another thing I'd like to mention ... tail docking does NOT mean cutting the dog's tail completely off. It mean shortening the tail. My dogs with cropped tails all have tails, they are simply a few inches shorter than the dogs with natural tails. If you ever see a dog whose docked tail is pretty much gone, then the vet doing the crop did not know what he was doing. Dogs with docked tails still have tails, just shorter tails.

Getting a puppy's tail docked is like getting a baby's ears pierced. It's purely cosmetic, and the baby cries for a minute. Right? Same with puppies. Are you a cruel and mean parent if you get your baby's ears pierced? No.

Now ear cropping is a different story, IMO. It is a much more involved, painful procedure with a much higher risk of infection, done when the puppy is much older, or even adult. There is NO legimate reason for cropping a dog's ears, except for them to be a fighting dog. And that is the most horrible reason of all.

Where I made an analogy between docking a puppy's tail and piercing a baby's ears, I believe I could also make an analogy between cropping a dog's ears and having half of your baby's ears cut off so she could look like Spock on Star-Trek.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Foam
Shelteez-- Border Collie Rescue in Arizona has docked a few tails due to injury. I've seen plenty of Border Collies with docked tails.

---

Oh I've seen dogs that had their tails docked due to injuries. I'd just never heard of a border collie as being a breed where it was done as a puppy to prevent injury...

well Jasper's tail is docked obviously, I dont have anything against it personally, he never gets his tail caught in the door ;), I think its all part of some breeds "look" I dont have a problem with it!

Also something about ear cropping, well its illeagal here, BUT Jasper has perminant(sp?) ear infection, always goes away but always comes back, always needs ear dops, which the vet & breeder says he would NOT have if his ears were cropped, but I do not like ear cropping it is MUCH more painfull, takes 6 months or so to heal and it 100% for looks.

But no problem with docking...

Quote:

---

If you ever see a dog whose docked tail is pretty much gone, then the vet doing the crop did not know what he was doing.

---

I think that depends on the breed, example rottweilers, they barely have any tail left after docking as some breeds have 3-4 inches left, it depends on the breed of dog.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by DogLover9501
Jasper has perminant(sp?) ear infection, always goes away but always comes back, always needs ear dops, which the vet & breeder says he would NOT have if his ears were cropped

---

Then they obviously don't know much.
It's been proven that cropping has NO affect whatsoever on dogs getting ear infections or not.

Well ear croping is not one at all over here so i dont have to see it. but if it is for breed standerd showing, to me, breed standerd is as they are not how they have been modifid (?sp).
all dogs and cuter naterally.

As for tail docking, i have never seen a BC with docked tail, to me they dont need to be docked.
if they are a well known happy breed then maybe it should be done but for working purposes no they need their tail for balance etc.

Sheep do need to be docked, as cleaning a flock of over 100 sheep and lambs is obserd, fly strike can kill a lamb.
As for cows well i would laugh it became comon, how stupid is that, they (mostly) are brung in for milking twice a day so it wouldnt be any trouble to wipe away the muck,

But people will do as they wish no matter what we think.
Ky and Rio

Quote:

---

Originally posted by GSDgurl
I see no reason in trying to change something that is done in so many breeds for so many years....I just can't see it happening.

---

Done in the USA, not everywhere. Cropping and docking (but especially cropping) is illegal in other countries outside the US. Tail-docking and ear-clipping are already illegal in most European countries, including Britain. I've been doing some research and reading and here are the list of countries I have found as pertains to cropping and/or docking:

United Kingdom: Cropping is illegal.

Australia: Cropping is illegal.

Canada: In Newfoundland and Labrador cropping is illegal.

New Zealand: Cropping is illegal

Netherlands: Ear cropping became illegal in the sixties.
September 2001 docking was also illegal.

Belgium: cropping was illegal by end 2001. In January 2006 docking will be illegal.

Italy: Cropping is reported to be illegal. Docking is reported to be illegal since February 2001.

Germany: Docking and cropping have been forbidden for a few years.

Scandinavia (Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland and Denmark): docking has been also banned for years.

Switzerland: docking has been illegal for a couple of years

A clip from AR-News article:

Quote:

---

A bill to ban ear-clipping is in the works. But even while such practices are still legal, Ms. Barnato is encouraged by the number of vets who are starting to take a stand on their own. In one recent survey of California vets, only 10 percent said they will clip ears, and 56 percent support legislation to ban it.

---

I'm reading from many sites that quite a few vets are opposing surgery for purely cosmetic reasons totally.

From Vet 4 Pets page:

Quote:

---

Although breeders can perform this procedure, it is best left to a licensed veterinarian, who has appropriate anesthetics. Puppies who undergo this procedure expect at least a few weeks of painful, sensitive ears. Unfortunately, the splinting of the ears is necessary especially during the early stages of healing, which adds to their discomfort. Unless you're planning to show your dog in conformation classes, ear cropping is un-necessary, and therefore becomes personal preference.

---

I'm additionally apalled that a breeder can legally do this procedure on their own without vet care.

From an MSN news article:

Quote:

---

Healing from ear surgery is slow and painful for a dog and there is a risk of complications such as infection. That according to Dr A Crook of the Atlantic Veterinary College.

---

There are just tons of articles on this issue, and if you (meaning anyone reading this) are someone who feels that it is only a small group of extremists are making a fuss about it, you are very wrong. This practice is very much in question, and a very hot issue with bills being introduced and discussed.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Rio and Me
As for tail docking, i have never seen a BC with docked tail, to me they dont need to be docked.
if they are a well known happy breed then maybe it should be done but for working purposes no they need their tail for balance etc.

---

Australian shepherds don't have tails, and they can be quite good herders. Rottweilers can be good at herding as well. :)

There are reasons for tail docking and I don't feel it should be baned.
I'm going through it right now, we are trying to decide if we need our Dane's tail docked. He has hurt it so many time, by beating it against wall, trees, tables, fences and he has even hurt people with it, me being one of them. He has so much force behind his tail and it's always going at full speed. There have been so many times I've had to doctor his wounds that the vet has suggested to us that maybe we should think out docking it, just a little

All 3 of my Boxers have their tails docked, not that I did it, But I couldn't image them having their natural tail. Just by watching how fast their little stubs move, I can only image what damage they would do to it if it wasn't done. Some breeds needs their tails docked, for their sake.
I'd hate to have some law maker telling me sorry you dog will have to suffer with his wounds. I don't think so.

The ear croping, I have a different view. I did Tuffy's ears, and I will never do that to a dog again. I was told it was not a big deal to do his ears and I was foolish enough to belive them. For anyone that says it not that painfull for the puppy, I'd have to say come look at the pictures I have of Tuffy. We both went through hell with his ears. It is painfull and I learned a very hard lesson at the Tuffy's expence. I will never crop a dogs ears as long as I live.

My other 2 Boxer and my MinPin came to me with thier ears already done, it was not my doing, for anyone who might question that they have theirs done too. I do not crop ears and never will. Even though they do look cute with their ears. ;)


I think in time ear croping will be baned in the US, even now it's harder to find a vet that will do it. I know that for the 3 countys around me there is only one vet that does it. But I hope they don't ban the tail croping complety, medical reasons, well being of the dog it should be done.

K9soul- Thats neat your reading many sites.....pertaining to this article. Personally I didn't know so many countries had banned these procedures....Thanx for the incite. As for the U.S....I don't see it being banned...because...well thats the U.S. And yes....I well still believe it is a group of people trying to ban this.....I don't care what anyone says. There is also a "group" of people that are against banning it. (not trying to be rude....so plz don't take it that way)

Fox-Gal- The cropping can go wrong for some dogs....but that doesnt mean all. My Dobermans ears healed up great after his surgery n' he diffenetly didn't go though "hell" because I made sure he didn't have too.

Kfamr- But yet a dog with standing ears has less of a chance of getting an ear infection then a dog with floppy ears.

As for not many vets doing this practice.....we have 5 vets that practice ear cropping in just my area.

Quote:

---

I think that depends on the breed, example rottweilers, they barely have any tail left after docking as some breeds have 3-4 inches left, it depends on the breed of dog.

---

That's true, different breeds have different standard lengths for the tail to be docked at. But a lot of people who don't know anything about docking think, and say, "Poor dogs, it's so mean to cut off their tails. How can they tell you they are happy if they can't wag their tails." Which, of course, is false. I just wanted to make sure people knew, docking is shortening, not completely removing, the tail.

Quote:

---

Jasper has perminant(sp?) ear infection, always goes away but always comes back, always needs ear dops, which the vet & breeder says he would NOT have if his ears were cropped

Then they obviously don't know much.
It's been proven that cropping has NO affect whatsoever on dogs getting ear infections or not.

But yet a dog with standing ears has less of a chance of getting an ear infection then a dog with floppy ears.

---

A dog with heavy drop (floppy) does indeed have a far greater risk of ear infections than a dog with prick (standing) ears. Bassets, cockers, springers, etc. are all much more prone to ear infections than a dog with prick ears. The reason being is that the bacteria and/or yeast that cause ear infections grow in an anaerobic (without oxygen) environment. If the ear flaps are heavy and hang close to the dog's face, then oxygen cannot get down the ear canal, and bacteria and/or yeast grow like crazy in there.

So, there is indeed much truth to saying that a dog with prick ears gets less ear infections than one with heavy or hairy floppy ears.

However ... most of the breeds that traditionally have cropped ears (boxers, pit bulls, great Danes, dobermans) etc. do not have excessively heavy drop ears. And they do not have the hairy ears of a cocker or a springer either - hair being another thing that contributes to lack of oxygen in the ear canal.

So to say cropping prevent ear infections is probably not valid, beause the breeds that are cropped are not normally prone to anaerobic ear infections anyway.

Now, if you were to crop a cocker's ears (perish the thought!) it definately WOULD get less ear infections. Many vets recommend tying a cocker's or a basset's ears together on top of its head with a hair tie for several hours per day, to allow the oxygen into the ear canal.

Simple good ear hygiene can do a lot to prevent ear infections as well. Ear mites can contribute to ear infections, especially in the outer ear canal, due to their droppings. Willie got an external ear infection once that I had to medicate with an antibiotic ointment, though his ears weren't floppy at all. I really don't think it's necessarily accurate for that vet to say Jasper would not get infections if his ears were cropped. Boxer ears do not hang down too heavily and they do not have "hairy" ears.

People with dogs who have very heavy ears are often advised on keeping a closer eye on ears and keep them clean. If they swim or get the ears wet I think it's especially encouraged to clip the ears up for a bit until dry.

However, I would not crop the ears of a bassett or bloodhound or cocker just to reduce ear care and possibility of infection, thus why it is totally an invalid excuse IMHO for the cropping of Dobes/danes/pits etc etc.

Honestly, and no offense intended here, I think people just get used to a look and so they don't like to see something different, even to the point they turn a somewhat blind eye to the fact that there IS pain involved for the dog. Would you want to see a yellow lab with cropped/pricked ears similar to that of a doberman or a boxer? They have a very similar type of ear to the natural ears of those breeds. We are used to a lab's ears the way they are, so I'm willing to bet most people would be appalled/shocked to see cropped ears on a lab.

If the ears of these breeds had never been cropped in times past, we would all be perfectly used to seeing these dogs with their natural ears, the same way we are with a lab, retriever, weimeraner, and on and on with other dogs who have natural ears that are very similar in size and set.

My grandfather crops all of his cattledog's tails. He says it prevents injury. That working dogs often get them stomped by cows, shut in gates, etc...

As far as cropping for cosmetic purposes goes, I'm undecided. I love the look of cropped ears and tails. Yet, I am not sure that I could bring my family dog in for cosmetic surgury. I'd probably rather them look natural then put them through unneccessary pain.

BTW. I was asking about cropping one time, and my vet is really cool, so he let me come back. They had this pitbull puppy put under on a table. There was blood everywhere as he trimmed his ears with scissors. He just keep looking and trimming a little off each time until he got the look that he wanted. It was very gory and disturbing.