Is growling at owner EVER okay?

I'm wondering if it's ever okay for a dog to growl at his owner. The other night Jeff was petting Lefty and he suddenly stopped at a period where his head was directly above and behind Lefty's (hope that makes sense). I don't think Lefty could see Jeff but could sense how close he was, and I think it annoyed him. He began growling this low growl, but stopped as soon as Jeff moved, and then he wanted more petting.

Part of me thinks a dog should be able to "say" when you're doing something that annoys him; on the other hand, I wonder if it invites trouble if a dog is allowed to growl at his owner, especially if the owner is already dealing with a low-level dominance/aggression issue, as we are.

Any advice? :)

Are you sure that Lefty was growling at Jeff? or some unseen noise in the distance? The reason I am asking is that sometimes Leo does this, but it always turns out to be something outside that he is growling at (i.e. the mailman, the ups truck, someone walking past the house) and when they go away he just looks at me like "see Mom - I made them go away".
It almost sounds like Lefty was growling and something else and then when Jeff moved got refocused on the petting.

I do not ever think it is permissible for a dog to growl at their parent - that is not to say you need to get rid of the dog, but you might need to put it on the "Nothing in Life is Free" program.

I've never been much on an expert on training, but I'd say growling is never ok. I feel that my dogs should always know that I am alpha. In fact, my dogs have to allow me and others to take bones from their mouths. I test them because I have a child, and I wouldn't ever want them to hurt him.

If it becomes a problem, that "Nothing in Life is Free" program that Clara mentioned is great. I wasn't real strict with it, but it changed Dusty for sure.

I don't think okay is the word I'd use, but I would say it's
predictable that Lefty would growl with someone hovering right
above his head like that. He's showing he is very uncomfortable
in that situation. (Many other dogs would be also)

I would just keep that in mind & accommodate Lefty as you
would a human friend who had a particular dislike. Avoid letting
this situation happen in the first place if possible.

I don't think it's a good thing for a dog to growl at his owner. Drake has growled occasionally at us but that was when we he was hurt or in pain and we were trying to touch it. I think it is his way or letting us know that he is pain.

My dogs have never growled at us in a mean way, but when they want attention, they will growl to themselves. When they are frustrated, they will growl and grumble like "grrrrooowr..mmmmm..." It's so funny lol. Are you sure it wasn't just this kind of growl and not a mean one?

I think Lefty was probably just trying to communicate that something bothered him, or possibly at something in the distance, as Clara mentioned.

Jada is a big grumbler--whenever we pet her, she grumbles, but it's a low grumble, it reminds me of a cat purring. She'll roll over on her belly, and keep grumbling, as if to tell us to keep going.

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Originally posted by wolfsoul
My dogs have never growled at us in a mean way, but when they want attention, they will growl to themselves. When they are frustrated, they will growl and grumble like "grrrrooowr..mmmmm..." It's so funny lol. Are you sure it wasn't just this kind of growl and not a mean one?

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That is EXACTLY what I thought when I read this. Maybe he was 'talking' to Jeff, saying, "Hey, more pets, please".

If it was growling...well, I don't think it is appropriate, but, something you might have to take in account when hovering above his head (lol). I have known doggies that don't like to be teased...for instance, their paws touched, so, when people would do it, they would growl.

I definitely think it was annoyed growling. He's growled before in a manner that seemed more playful, but this was different...

We knew we'd have to work a little with Lefty's issues, but I think we felt so bad about putting him in the kennel over the holidays that he sort of got free rein there for a while. Maybe we need to reel him back in, though I do agree with Lizbud that it's only fair that we avoid THIS particular behavior in the future, since we know it annoys him.

What exactly is the "Nothing in Life is Free" program?

Thanks, folks!

Nothing in Life is Free (NILIF) is the equivilent to teaching your kids to say "please" and "thank you". Make them sit or down before they get anything. Giving them a bone or treat, they have to say please by sitting before they get it. Fixing their dinner, they need to be in a down-stay while you are doing it. Make him sit before you put his food bowl down and then make him wait for a release word (I use OKAY) before they are allowed to eat.

If you let them up on furniture, they need to ask permission first (SIT) and then only get up there when you tell them it is okay (I use a pat on the sofa and say UP) and then make them get OFF on occasion.

Before he can go outside on a walk - he needs to be in a SIT while you attach the leash. If he is jumping around you, calmly put the leash back and go sit back down. Try again in about 5 minutes.

This program helped a great deal when Leo and Penny Lane were going through their aggression to each other. Once they learned that they had to ask my permission for anything - they started focusing more on my permission and less on each other.

I think it depends on the growl. Reggie and Nebo are very well.."talkative" lol. They both growl all the time, but it's not in an aggressive way. Nebo growls sometimes when I'm petting him, but it's not a "I'm going to snap at you" it's his weird little growl/grunt he makes when he's happy.

(I'm hoping I read it correctly)..maybe Lefty saw him as a threat to alpha status? When Kai and Kae have their disagreements over who's alpha, Kai always wins and after mounting him, he'll put his head over Kaedyn's as a way of saying "back off, I'm alpha".

I don't think it's ever okay to growl at the owner (in a mean way). When Kaedyn started becoming more comfortable after a couple weeks of coming home, he started challenging us and Kai. When he was going through this, he'd growl at me every time I told him to 'down'. And I don't let my dogs ignore me when I say a command so I wanted to enforce it by putting him in a down. I stood over him, and bent down. The moment I was at his level, he tried nipping me. He only got my lips and didn't break the skin. But now, he downs every single time and I think he is probably much happier letting Kai be the alpha dog. Of course, I'm the overall pack leader ;).

One of my dogs growls non-stop, I am not kidding. She growls if she wants to play, she wants attention, she's even a little upset.. And it's no different then her defence growl.. GEEZ, it really scares people that are over!

As much as I love him, I think Lefty's just one of those "give him an inch; he'll take a mile" kind of dogs. I've gone back to speaking to him a little more firmly, and making him sit while I prepare his dinner, etc. If the growling happens again we'll have to find some way to punish him--make him get off the couch and act coldly toward him, I guess.

I was quite cold to him last night--the little turkey took off of the kitchen island (and ate) 2 molassas cookies that I'd bought for Jeff!!!

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Originally posted by Smilla
If the growling happens again we'll have to find some way to punish him--make him get off the couch and act coldly toward him, I guess.

I was quite cold to him last night--the little turkey took off of the kitchen island (and ate) 2 molassas cookies that I'd bought for Jeff!!!

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Were you all sitting on the couch when the first incident that
you spoke of happened? If so, this might put a whole new slant
on things. Liz.

Yes, we were--I'm curious how that might make things different. Lefty was in the middle of us.

If you all were sitting together on the couch then he would
see himself as an equal (or superior) member of the pack. Being
at an elevated level like a couch,chair or bed lifts his status in
the pack setting. In this situation, I would never let my dog get
away with growling at me, ever. He would immediately be made
to "off" whatever he was on & be put in a down/stay or sit. I
would also forbid any further laying on the furniture. Sounds like
Lefty would really benefit from the nothing's free treatment.

I first thought you meant Lefty was laying on the floor & someone
had bent over him where he could not see their face or hands &
that's what made him nervous.

My Buddy was a "give him an inch & he'd take a yard" type dog
also & I had to be very firm & consistant with him as he was
growing up. (Not mean, but firm, no nonsense commands)

He's allowed on furniture but not on the bed (though lately he's been getting up there while we're at work!). The trouble is, we LIKE cuddling with him on the couch. I don't always like getting down on the floor with him when I want to pet and hug him.

I hope that my being firm with him everywhere else will mean that we can continue letting him up on the furniture. He seems to respond well to the firmness. Like you were with Buddy, I'm just no-nonsense, not mean. After all, it was enough of an adjustment for me to be firm with him!

He definitely hasn't been at his best lately, but he's a smart dog and I know he can do better.

Max growled at us quite a few times, when we first brought him home. One time he even trapped my husband in the guest room, growling, and wouldn't let him out! That was just a few days after we brought him home.

There are certain things that set him off, which we just don't do anymore. We don't usually play hide and seek, because he gets really aggressive then. If we hide under a blanket he'll actually jump right up on us, growling fiercely, and rip the blanket off. When we play with him, we're really careful not to do anything that leads to him jumping up on us because it seems like when he gets airborn, he gets more aggressive.

We do show our dominance to him in every possible way, to keep him in his place. I place my head in the exact position you described every time I have contact with him. I take things out of his mouth, and never let him on the furniture. I don't think I'd recommend this to most people, but whenever he opens his mouth like he's going to start mouthing me, I put my hand in his mouth and gently grab his lower jaw. He hates that and it teaches him not to mouth. Of course that could be dangerous.

Another thing we've started doing is whispering commands. We whisper "sit" as quietly as we can and call him to us using whispers. We reward him with tons of attention when he responds to that, and it helps him to realize he has to pay attention to us and always listen.

We do allow playful growling - he talks to us that way all the time. But if he every growled aggressively I would definitely put him in his place.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Smilla
I hope that my being firm with him everywhere else will mean that we can continue letting him up on the furniture. He seems to respond well to the firmness. Like you were with Buddy, I'm just no-nonsense, not mean. After all, it was enough of an adjustment for me to be firm with him!

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I think you can let him up on the furniture, just do it on your terms not his. Make him sit or down - then allow access. Make him get off on command. Remember - he has to say please and thank you.:)