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I e-mailed the trainer back, and asked methods of training a while ago, anyway her responce made me quickly change my mind, here is what she said:
"We use positive/negative reinforcement by using a choke collar and a 6 foot leather leash"
Ugh no way!
I know some will disagree with me but I don't think correction/praise is completely horrible. When Kai was a pup, I trained him by luring and used food. I tried switching to just praise over time but it still didn't work. He barely responded with the treats. Then I found Jaime. She seemed to have a better background and used the same method, correction/praise. It worked far better and now, I have a reliable dog who will come when called and who I actually think I can compete in obedience with. I guess what I'm trying to say is, it's not a completely horrible way to train IMO but I do encourage you to look for a trainer who uses positive reinforcement since he's still a pup and has alot to learn and trust. Just keep in mind that correction/praise isn't totally horrible as long as you do it right.
I'm pretty sure all obedience classes require you to have a choke collar, at least around here. IMO they're not cruel and they DO work; you just have to learn how to use it. I use the choke collar with Daisy when I'm training with her, and she doesn't mind it. To correct them, it's just a fast snap of the collar and soon they catch on. In fact, I hardly have to correct her anymore with it. The instructor I had for Daisy, was all based on praise, and didn't believe on using food as a reward, which I liked.
dont goto that trainer, i dont like chockers, i wouldent use one inless it was 100% nessisary
Yep, I agree. I don't think they're cruel at all if you use it correctly. For jasper, I think a positive method would be better but just as a side-note, I don't find myself correcting Kai anymore either. I don't correct him if he doesn't know the command so it's always positive when he's learning it and only negative when he doesn't obey. But even when he doesn't obey, I enforce it and praise so it's really not as bad as it sounds.Quote:
Originally posted by GoldenRetrLuver
I'm pretty sure all obedience classes require you to have a choke collar, at least around here. IMO they're not cruel and they DO work. I use the choke collar with Daisy when I'm training with her, and she doesn't mind it. In fact, I hardly have to correct her anymore with it. The instructor I had for Daisy, was all based on praise, and didn't believe on using food as a reward, which I liked.
I really do not like choke collars, prong collars, or any other collar that goes smaller or tightens around the dog's neck when it pulls.
My sister's old highschool teacher had a Choco Lab named Buster, that I used to always play with, take for walks, and she provided a choke chain and prong collar for me to walk him with. I tell you, it was HELL trying to get those on him. He HATED them.
A while back we had a choke chain for Simba. He never pulled on the leash, but one day he went after a squirelle and the choke chain snapped in half. It was a good quality chain too.
Daisy didn't like it much at first, because it was like a "HUH?" whenever I pulled on it for a correction, but now it's just a regular routine for her, since I train with it.
They're really not as bad as they sound.
LOL! Ohh I know that face all too well. When I used it the first time, he was like "HUH? :eek: But how do I chase that cat?"Quote:
Originally posted by GoldenRetrLuver
Daisy didn't like it much at first, because it was like a "HUH?" whenever I pulled on it for a correction
This artical is interesting.
That is a good article Kay!
I would not go to a trainer that REQUIRES a choke collar. In fact, where we train, they are not allowed at all. We use the nylon slip collars, as our collar of choice, although with Cincy we did progress to the prong collar (after trying harness, gentle leader, and halti with no success). It was amazing that she finally responded to something, and now I only use it when I am walking all 3 dogs alone, just because if they see a squirrel or something before I do, I need to be able to control them and thatis 190 lbs of dog pulling aginst me.
Used correctly, a choke collar should never actually choke a dog. Tasha's class recommended it but I don't remember it actually requiring it. The teacher spent careful time demonstrating how it should be worn and used, so that it just causes more like a nudge to get the dog's attention, but NEVER choke the dog.
Used incorrectly, it can be a bad tool. Used correctly, it is not in the least cruel or unpleasant.
Where I go to train choke, prawn and other collars like that are forbidden in all classes. They prefer instead that the dogs have flat nylon buckle collars, and use only positive reinforcement. They work with the owner and dog until they find something that motivates the dog to work. For some it's food, others toys and others it's just a willingness to please.
I do however understand that some dogs need something like the choke collar, to get the message through to them that what they are doing is not right. When I first got Smudge I tried one on him but it didn't seem to offer any help, so now I use the good ol positive reinforcement with all my dogs. Treat the good ignore the bad.
I have no say for the training bit, because we never had Katie obiedienced(sp) trained. And she turned out great! But I would do some more re-search on that kind of training method, you never know...it could be a good way or a bad way.
Right. It's just a fast snap of the leash, and then you release it. It just startles them.Quote:
Originally posted by K9soul
Used correctly, a choke collar should never actually choke a dog.
Not if the dog pulls. It chokes them if they pull. Hence the name 'choke' collar.Quote:
Originally posted by GoldenRetrLuver
Right. It's just a fast snap of the leash, and then you release it. It just startles them.
yah where you are lol, even the negitive trainers here dont allow choke collars, and everyone strongly discourages them, exept one trainor I took happys to was horrable, she was scared of them so instead of trying to earn her trust they yelled at her and yanked her by the collar over to them, told me she had problems and orderd that next week she had better being wearing a halter, needless to say we NEVER went back!:eek: I say choose your trainor wisley we took happy to privet sessions with a positive clicker trainer and she worked wonders, no negitive whatsoever all positive and calm, and working at her own pace, gaining happys trust gently and she had happy meeting new people without so much as a growl after 1 session, had her happly enjoying the company of the trainors dogs within 2 weeks, say find a good clicker trainer lol they work wonders ;)Quote:
I'm pretty sure all obedience classes require you to have a choke collar,
That's why I said most trainers require them, at least where I am, or what I've heard.
I like the choke collar. I think it's a good training tool. But, everyone can have different opinions. :)
Yup, agree to disagree. I'll be going to a more positive training method with my future dogs first but I have no problem going back to this method if any of my dogs are like Kai.Quote:
Originally posted by GoldenRetrLuver
That's why I said most trainers require them, at least where I am, or what I've heard.
I like the choke collar. I think it's a good training tool. But, everyone can have different opinions. :)
Thats what I would like, a class like that, Jasper does have a willingness to please, hes already learned sit, lay down, stay, and give both paws in about one monthQuote:
Where I go to train choke, prawn and other collars like that are forbidden in all classes. They prefer instead that the dogs have flat nylon buckle collars, and use only positive reinforcement. They work with the owner and dog until they find something that motivates the dog to work. For some it's food, others toys and others it's just a willingness to please.
I would just ask if you have to use one. They may just recommend it, but not require it. Ask if you can go with him just on a normal collar. Any training classes have something you can learn from them, and if these are the only ones offerred in your area then at least he will get som dog socialization, and learn to work for you with other distractions.Quote:
Originally posted by DogLover9501
I e-mailed the trainer back, and asked methods of training a while ago, anyway her responce made me quickly change my mind, here is what she said:
"We use positive/negative reinforcement by using a choke collar and a 6 foot leather leash"
Ugh no way!
I have used a slip chain to train, and while I prefer other methods now, I don't think it's all bad if used properly. I have put a chain on and given myself a proper correction and so I do know how it feels. A proper correction does not choke the dog, in fact the collar hits the back and side of the neck, not across the front.
I have also used a pinch collar (not on my shelties, on some dobermans and a great dane) and I've also put that collar on as well so I know what it feels like. I was suprised that it wasn't as bad as you would think it would be.
Out of all the collars I've tried on myself I think the only one I would never use is an electric collar.
Anyways to get back to the original topic, I think you should go and observe a class and talk to the trainer before completely making up your mind.
Oh one more thing that's just a personal observation of trainers in my area, I've found that trainers that use praise/corrections are more open minded than ones that use purely positive methods. I'm not saying that's the case everywhere, it's just what I've observed in my immediate area.
If the dog pulls you would correct it, which involves making slack in the leash and then popping the leash out to the side (not backwards) so that the correction is delivered correctly. Generally you don't let the dog get the collar tight enough to choke itself before correcting.Quote:
Originally posted by Kfamr
Not if the dog pulls. It chokes them if they pull. Hence the name 'choke' collar.
And I've always thought it was called a "choke" collar because of people who didn't know how to use it properly letting their dogs pull until it was tight under the impression that if the dog was smart it would stop pulling and thus stop choking itself. Unfortunately that's not how the collar works and in factm ost dogs will pull against the pressure they feel and then choke themselves more.
There are of course many many other and better ways to prevent pulling. :)
Shelteez reminded me that they are more often being called a slip collar or slip chain now. Our dog class trainer was very careful to show how to put it on, and how to use it so that it didn't choke the dog, but worked the way Shelteez described. I've also heard it referred to as a training collar, and that the "snap" is not so much a correction as it is to focus the dog's attention back to what they are doing.
Our instructor encouraged it especially so that the dog has a specific collar associated with a training session. She spoke about a lot of varying reinforcements such as treats, the clicker trainers, and good old fashioned praise. I felt she explained things pretty well.
For a dog that is bad with pulling, I personally really prefer the halti collar.
I think of the halti as more of a band-aid to pulling. Most dogs can't pull with it on (although some can and I've had one dog darn near yank my arm out of the socket), but it doesn't do anything to teach the dog that it can't pull. Which is fine if all you want is to be able to control your dog on a walk. For me personally I'd rather have a dog that didn't pull regardless of the type of collar it was wearing.Quote:
Originally posted by K9soul
For a dog that is bad with pulling, I personally really prefer the halti collar.
Something interesting I found. This part I found particularly interesting:
I think I might change to the prong collar. The slip doesn't seem to be working for Kai's walking (it works fine for his obedience work though). I'll definately need something that tightens because he's a stinker when it comes to walking. He likes to pull backwards and has slipped out of flat collars before...I'll have to ask the trainer what she thinks.Quote:
A Study on Prong Collars was done in Germany:
100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong.
The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed.
Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma.
Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma.