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Killian/very ill
OK guys, I need you now. Here are the details as I understand them:
Killian, my rescued 7 yr.old (used to be 110 lb.) male GSD is very ill. He has been fighting eosinophilic gingivitis (rare in dogs, more common in cats) for a while now. It will clear up for a month and then start again. He has had a biopsy done and that is the result (gingivitis). His liver enzymes have been acceptable til this last time. He had been on Clindamyicin previously to clear up the condition but it would only last for a month. Then the vet decided to try Metronidazole ( for 1 week- 500mg 3X a day, then 500 mg 2X a day) to fight the bacteria in his mouth. Before starting this med, his enzymes were 271 (normal is l00 or less). After being on the meds, his urine started turning orange and he would not eat. He has dropped 10 lbs. (The meds were stopped and tomorrow and Tuesday he goes in for an IV to flush his system. His CBCs, urinalysis and bile acid tests came back bad. His liver enzymes (ALT) are 821. Bilirubin is 8.8 (normal is .3). He is a bit anemic. Anyone have any knowledge of this type of liver disease(?) or any problems with Metronidazole? Any info will be GREATLY appreciated.
Prayers will be greatly appreciated, too.
Sue
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[This message has been edited by Sudilar (edited June 17, 2001).]
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Oh Sue, I am so sorry Killian is so ill, I will hope and pray everything turns out well for him. Please keep us posted on his condition. I will be thinking about him until I hear from you that he is o.k.
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http://www.vetinfo.com/dmetronidazole.html
The Vet info site link I posted talks about the potentila for liver problems using Metronidazole, because that is where the drug is metabolized. You should read it, Sue, and give Killian a hug from me, or a tummy scritch, whichever the poorbaby http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/frown.gif prefers. It does say the problems should clear up if the drug is stopped, but again, please read for yourself. http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/smile.gif
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I will be praying for your beautiful Killian. Sorry I can't offer much advice for your situation because I just don't know. I will do some research on the web and see what I come up with. Give the boy a hug for me http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/frown.gif
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Oh, Sue, I am so sorry. This has to be so difficult for you. You and Killian are in my prayers. I hope everything works out for you guys. I have no advise but I sure can pray and that's what I'll do. Good luck.
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All of you are so wonderful. I know I can count on you for help!
Karen, I hope that some of the bad test results can reverse themselves after detox. I am worried because Killi had started to show high liver enzymes even before the metronidazole was started. He was at 380 but went back down to 271 (<100is normal) before the med. I hope the med did not damage his liver more (821). I am so worried.
Sue
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Well I can't provide any informations but Daisy and I will pray for Killian tonight. Keep us updated. I hope everything goes alright. You can count on us anytime.
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Sue...I'm sorry but I have no knowledge in this area at all but I can certainly pray for Killian. You must be beside yourself with worry. How is he acting other than not wanting to eat? Can he keep food down?
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What a difficult time for Killian and his family! I'll be praying for you all!
And I just want to put in my two cents to remind our Pet Talk family to remember the animal care givers in prayer too. The vets and helpers, even the jaded and disinterested shelter workers need our prayers to keep them loving and giving to our fur friends!
Good Luck Killian!
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Thank you, thank you, thank you for your prayers and well-wishes. We need them!
He also has jaundice, of course. The whites of his eyes are yellow and so is the inside of his ears. He has lost 11 lbs. which makes him 99. It shows on his face and near his hips. He does not want to eat. We finally got him to eat some chicken liver and ground beef. He didn't eat a lot, but at least it was something. He doesn't have a lot of energy, but he still gives lots of kisses!
You guys are wonderful. Thanks for all that you do!
Sue and Killian (and Shiloh, who IS eating well-all of Killi's left-overs!)
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You and Killian are in my thoughts and prayers tonight. I know nothing of this disease but I know those who do will share this vital information. Trust your vet to give the finest treatment for your precious baby. I know a lady who was praying for my Jasper while he was lost, and I will ask her to pray for Killan too. Take care of yourself, so you can take care of Killian.
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Sue,
I missed your post last night when I was catching up. I am so sorry to hear Killian is ill. I hope your veterinarian can figure this out and that he will start improving soon. It sounds very scary.
I know nothing about this type of problem, but I certainly hope you will keep us informed about Killian. Helen and I will say extra prayers for all of you.
Logan
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Oh my gosh, Sue. I am so sorry that Killian is sick, and I will be praying that he gets better and kicks out of this. I did not see this post until today and I am shocked that he's sick.
Your dogs, even though they are YOUR dogs, are very special to me. They are the model of what I want when I get my GSD. They seem to have fabulous personalities and I feel close to both of them. They are special dogs. Killian, please get better, buddy.
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Merlin and I send prayers and good energy to you all. We never have had this challange, Good Luck!
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Unfortunately I cannot offer advice but I can certainly offer tons of prayers.
I'll be thinking of you both.
Take care and an extra special hug to Killian
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Sue, I am soo sorry I missed this post until today, and sorry that the magnificent Killian is so sick. This has to be such a worry for you. I have not had to deal with anything of this nature. Prayers will be said in this household as well.
On that note I am also saying prayers of gratitude for the miraculous return of Jasper, which gives us hope for Killian's return to better heath.
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Thank you again, everyone. You don't know how much this means to me. With all these prayers, Killian has no other choice but to get better. He has survived so much before, hopefully this will be just one more crisis to overcome. Thank you, all! You are the BEST!
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Oh Su, I'm so sorry. We hope Killian the best.
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-Rottie
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Oh Sue!! i have my paws crossed and prayers offered! even bug's little head is bowed. We have positive thoughts going to you and Killian and the vets and techs and everyone helping killian. its all gonna be okay! cuz we got positive prayers on our side. and you have all of us behind you cheering killian back to health. http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/smile.gif
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Oh Sue!! I sure hope Killian gets better!! Has the vet had any positive feedback for you? We'll all definitely be sending pet talk prayers for you and Killian! Please keep us posted!!
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Sue,
I just wanted you to know that Killian is in our prayers. I'm so sorry he's not well. Please keep us posted.
Thelma,
Charlie and Yertle
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Sue, my lab Jingles was on metronitazole for the treatment of liver cancer. She had similar side effects during her treatment. It is a very powerful drug with the potential for severe side effects. It greatly depressed Jingles appetite as well, with nausea and vomiting. Please check the site Karen posted. It gives a lot of good pharmacological info. about this very powerful and potentially debilitating drug.
I can't tell you how sorry I am to hear about Killian. Please give him lots of hugs and kisses. You and Killian will be in my heart and prayers. I pray that adjusting or changing the meds will help him improve quickly. Paws crossed by everyone here for beautiful Killian. Love, Sandra, Cody and Star I do believe in the power of prayer, and you have everyone here doing just that for beautiful Killian.
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Sandra (and all),
As I am reading up on Metronidazole, I'm getting the idea that Killian built up a toxic amount in his system (an overdose?) because the 500mg 3x a day for 1 week, then 2x a day for the next 1 1/2 weeks. Since his liver was having difficulty just before this med, I'm wondering if he could not metabolize the med correctly and it built up into a toxic level? I will be picking him up soon from the vet for today and I will ask her if that is possible. The sad thing is that last week, as I noticed symptoms showing up in Killian, I DID call the vet to ask if it was a problem and my vet was not in that day. Another vet told me to give it a few more days and then see.... Look what happened! He should have been taken off the med immediately. I hope this hasn't damaged his liver beyond help!! I will let you know what is going on as soon as I find out. Sandra, I didn't know Jingles had liver cancer. I am so sorry. I know you loved her very much. Thank you for the info.
Thank you all, especially for the prayers. http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/smile.gif
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Dear Sue. You are absolutely right, that Killian may have built up a toxic level due to an inability of his liver to break it down. Many drugs are broken down by the liver; this is one. My vet DAILY supervised the dosage and effects of the metronidazol. Because she was terminally ill already, they felt that although the drug itself may have adverse effects on her liver (which was already compromised) because her final outcome was inevitable, if it could have any positive effects at all, it was worth a try. She was eventually taken off it.
I, once again, am going to stand on my soap box. I have decided that no matter how insignificant, I will no longer hesitate to bug the heck out of my vet when I feel something isn't "right." I know my kids. Every nuance of their behavior, habits, etc. And I'm a nurse, and very attuned to physical and behavioral changes. But I'm not hysterical!!! I think I can sense better than anyone when they are not well. I have too often been told "don't worry" or, LITERALLY, wait and call me in the morning. I did this when I first got Jing. She was stuporous and could hardly walk the stairs. I called my vet. They asked if "maybe she was over exercised today??!!!!!!!!" Call me in the morning. I knew something was wrong. But I guess I wanted to believe it wasn't serious. By morning she was almost unconcious. I adopted her from a rescue group who did not automatically spay on adoption and she was scheduled for an appt. to have it done soon. Well, she had developed pyometra, a very serious, potentially fatal infection of the uterus. Their response as I and my husband carried her into the hospital was, "OH!!!!" Major surgery followed with a lengthy recuperation. When she first developed symptoms of liver cancer, and I remember the night so well, I knew that night something was very wrong. Jing, a lab, never passed up a crumb. Every night while cooking she would sit by my feet and wait for SOMETHING to drop..usually a veggie or some lettuce. That night she lay on the floor, lethargic, and didn't want to "beg." She didn't want to move. My stomach sunk. I noticed she had fine tremors in all her limbs. (Turns out it was a petite mal seizure!!!) The animal hospital on call, not mine, said it was probably just a fever or she was tired. I became more insistent. She got very snippy and annoyed. I told her she was probably having a "bad night" and slammed the phone down, knowing something was really wrong. I don't think I was ever so angry. Working with patients, I know how a patient's family should be dealt with; even if the Dr. believes the family or patient is over-reacting, the Dr. has to listen, show concern, and certainly not be dismissive. She was just rude and apparently didn't want to be bothered that night. It took 2 change of vets and 1 month later before I finally got a diagnosis.
PLEASE don't feel guilty about not calling or insisting on having Killian's meds adjusted sooner. WE are supposed to be the novices here. We trust our doctors. For the most part I do. But now, when I feel there really is something wrong, I INSIST on bringing them in. I don't care anymore if they think I'm a nut, a pain, or whatever!! I go!!! I have even INSISTED they do blood work, xrays etc. if there is any question. As far as I'm concerned, the more knowledge, info. etc to make a diagnosis, the better.
I don't believe there should be any permanent liver damage with Killian. And taking him off the meds will hopefully reverse the symptoms dramatically. Please let me know how he is as soon as there is word from the vet, any change, etc. You have no idea how deeply I am praying for you and Killian. And thank you so much for your kind words about my precious Jingles. That was so kind of you, especially when you have such a heavy heart. Love to you both. Sandra
[This message has been edited by tatsxxx11 (edited June 18, 2001).]
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Oh Sandra, you are so right!!! This is what happened. On last Wed. I had to speak to the other vet because mine was not in. I did what he said and waited. On Sat. morning I couldn't stand it any more. When I spoke to my regular vet and told him what I observed he said to stop the medicine IMMEDIATELY and how fast can I get Killian to the office. I said 5 minutes and he said get in here!! If my vet had been in on that Wed. we could have stopped this sooner. I shouldn't have listened to the other vet. This will never happen again. I don't care if I sound like a pest or an idiot, this is my baby we're talking about here. I know that in MOST dogs this medicine may react differently and safely, but Killian is NOT most dogs.
I posed the question about toxicity to my vet when I picked Killian up for the day and she said yes. That is what seems to have happened!! If anything, I learned that I must believe in my own gut feelings and remember that vets don't always know everything!
Sue
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Oh Sue, Thank God and the good sense of your vet. Oh, Killian, please be well baby. Hurry and get well. Your mommy is so worried. Is Killian home now? Please hug him so tightly for me and kisses right on the side of his nose. Sue, I will thinking of you both all night. Star, Cody, Mr. B and Oliver all have their paws crossed and are saying their prayers. Love you Killian. You know, Cody is half Shep so she is especially upset. She was a rescue too. I hope you all sleep well tonight and tomorrow brings a sunny day and good news. Love to you both. Sandra
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Oh Wow! Poor Killi and Sue! Here I am wallowing in self pity with my own problems when I read about poor Killian. I swear to you I will pray and pray that he gets better. Sandra, the wise one, is so right. I 3rd degree my vet and he doesn't mind it one bit. I know every hair follicle on Cody and when I'm told not to worry, as minor as it may turn out to be, I always say, "I'll be right over" I know thay may think I'm a crazy woman but they greet me with hugs and play with Cody, My vet thinks it's great to know your pet. That's why, I too, try to stick to one. I know the terrible feeling you're going through, Sue, stress, worry, heart pounding, I feel such sympathy for you. You know we are here for you always!
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I like the others didn't catch your post until today. I was shocked to see your post. Shai, Kylie and I will be praying and thinking of him. Keep us posted.
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Thank you all again and again. You are my lifeline!!
Killi is a little disoriented (don't know why, they didn't drug him?). Four times he tried to squeeze into my rocking-recliner (which he doesn't fit in, he never did that before!) Right now he's under my chair and snoozing. I'm sure he'll be up at night asking to go out. Shiloh can't figure out why he doesn't want to play. Tomorrow we'll go through this again. It's been brought up to me that if I still had followed the other vets instructions and waited til the next scheduled visit, Killi would be dead by then! How scary. Thanks again for all your prayers! I'll let you know how tomorrow goes!
Sue
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I'm late too, but Killi is in our prayers. I hope and pray for a sucessful treatment and full recovery. Give Killian plenty of hugs and kisses from all of us.
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Killi came home from his second detox treatment and he actually looks good! He still wouldn't eat his hamburger and rice and dog food, but he did eat some hot dog and some Whopper (at least it was something). Tomorrow he goes in for all those liver tests to see how much damage there is . The results should be in on Thursday or Friday. If the results are bad then he has to go in for and ultrasound and biopsy. I am really hopeful that he will get better!
Sue
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[This message has been edited by Sudilar (edited June 19, 2001).]
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That sounds promising. You keep on getting better, Killian, and Daisy and I will keep our prayers going.
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It sounds encouraging. Try to keep your spirits up and think positively. I hope there is no permanent damage and he will be as good as new real soon. Continue to keep us posted.
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He seems to be making some progress, we will be thinking about him and hoping all his tests come out really good. Daisy, Perry and I send a big hug for him. http://PetoftheDay.com/talk/smile.gif
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Gentle little Hannah kisses and numberous Tucker kisses being sent Killian's way. What is the situation with the condition for which he was receiving the treatment? At least did the medication zap that?
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Sue. So far so good. I will with you every second in spirit, waiting for the test results. I know you must be terribly anxious. But we are all thinking POSITIVE!!! Till then, give Killi big labbie licks from Star and a gentle neck nuzzle from Cody, AND the biggest kiss from me. We are with you all the way. Sandra
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The news seem to be encouraging. I won't be able to check in for a couple of weeks, I will keep my prayers up though.
ALl the best
Gio
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I'm am sending Killi many many
good wishes and thoughts that
he will be 100% better.
I would not be a happy camper
with the other Vet at this point,
considering what poor Killi has
to go through.
Hope all goes well on Thursday.
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Thank you for your continued prayers and well-wishes. You all are the best. This morning Killi is mopey. He still won't eat very much. Yes, to say the least, I AM not too happy with that one vet (who has avoided me like the plague when I was in). I can't wait for the test results. I am so hopeful, but I still have that nagging thought on my mind about what if the results are still bad.... This afternoon, we go in for the tests. I am soooo nervous!!! Thanks, again.
Sue
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