Discussion thread - the right to choose life

I was watching an episode of SVU and came across this idea for a great discussion. My DH and I just had a very good one about it.

Should we have the right to choose life or death when seriously ill? If you know you have an incurable disease and we are at the point where all you feel is pain, nothing helps, and all enjoyment of life is gone and all that is left is suffering. Should you have the right to choose to die instead of waiting for the disease to prolong your life and suffering?

Personally for me I think we should have the right with restrictions. When we find out about the disease we should have to talk to a psychiatrist about it. SO they can decide if we are making this decision based on a healthy mind and expectation. So say I am diagnosed with an incurrable disease that is going to steadily destroy me(mind and body). We should be able to make a decision about at what point I should be able to self terminate my life. But I have to decide this with a proven healthy mind.

For me I see it as we have more compassion for our pets because we are allowed to choose that for them and end their suffering but yet for people(whom we should love just as much) we are unable to make this decision and instead have to wait till the body gives out even if the mind was gone a long time ago.

There is no wrong answer. Please do not condemn others that might have a differing opinion then you. So what is your thoughts.

It's awful that people need to endure such suffering when they know what they want. Granted, it's not a decision made lightly, but I for one know a few instances where I would not want to live anymore. I think people should be allowed to choose between life or death, especially if death is the only outcome of the situation. It isn't fair to subject people to endless pain, especially if they're going to die anyway. I recall a case where a french women with some type of cancer sued many times over to be euthanized, she unfortunately did not win any of the times but she was obviously suffering a great deal and finally died after 2 years of enduring alot of pain.

Nicole, I like what you said here:

Personally for me I think we should have the right with restrictions. When we find out about the disease we should have to talk to a psychiatrist about it. SO they can decide if we are making this decision based on a healthy mind and expectation. So say I am diagnosed with an incurrable disease that is going to steadily destroy me(mind and body). We should be able to make a decision about at what point I should be able to self terminate my life. But I have to decide this with a proven healthy mind.

For me I see it as we have more compassion for our pets because we are allowed to choose that for them and end their suffering but yet for people(whom we should love just as much) we are unable to make this decision and instead have to wait till the body gives out even if the mind was gone a long time ago.

I agree with what you said about the patient talking with and being evaluated by a psychiatrist before they are allowed to make any decisions. What you said about us being to make the decision on weather or not we euthanize animals, well, a big part of that is they cannot make the decision themselves (obviously). I'm sure some patients suffering from an incurably illness/disease would be grateful if this were a choice that they could make.

This might fall under living will as well. Yes for me and for many I know when pain is unbearable, a cure is not forthcoming and I cease to enjoy life and to make those I love happy it is time for me to go.
Let the money be used for someone else, let me go to where ever I am going.
Death will come to all. There is no escaping it. So if one can end ones life on a positive note, say their goodbyes and pass along some joy and wisdom yes it is time to go.
Why wait for what more pain and agony? Let me slip away in the company of loved ones..............
Actually most people if they are at home and have access to simple over the counter meds can take matters into their own hands.
As the French say "Sleep a little death"

Euthanasia should not be legalized. It is by no means a solution to human suffering. Though euthanasia is a controversial subject, it is evident that it only disrupts the normal pattern of life and leads toward creating a more violent and abusive society. Life is a gift and not a choice and practices such as euthanasia violate this vital concept of human society.

I have to wonder why such a stupic topic is discussed on what is supposed to be a pet forum???

I've been very clear with my son about this. Should I reach the point where I have no quality of life, cannot function on my own, and/or have a terminal illness or injury it's time to let go. I told him not to worry about "pulling the plug" because it's not going in. I do believe we should be given the choice of when to die though I'm not sure it should be done with a mandated psychiatric evaluation. Instead, the individual should discuss this with their family before it becomes an issue and be perfectly clear about what is to be done then prepare a legally binding advance directive.

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Originally Posted by Asiel

Euthanasia should not be legalized. It is by no means a solution to human suffering.

We each have our own opinions on this topic and all opinions are valid

Though euthanasia is a controversial subject, it is evident that it only disrupts the normal pattern of life and leads toward creating a more violent and abusive society.

Could you please provide evidence that this is true because I do not see how you come to this conclusion

Life is a gift and not a choice and practices such as euthanasia violate this vital concept of human society.

Agian could you please explain how you come to this conclusion

I have to wonder why such a stupic topic is discussed on what is supposed to be a pet forum???

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To me this is not a stupid topic. Obviously it is an important subject to many. Just because you do not agree with how people feel about this topic is no reason to insult it. And that is why also it is posted in the general secion and not the pet section.

Someone just informed me of this:

http://www.doh.wa.gov/dwda/forms/DWDA_2009.pdf

Washington State actually has this law passed. It is called Death With Dignity Act. The link above is the report of 2009 when it came into effect. It is only allowed for those that are terminally ill and have 6 months or less to live. They are given a set of pills to do it with. I am so glad to see that at least one place has passed something like this.

This saddens me so............
To hear of this suffering for what purpose, what reason to go on living?
If you have ever heard the screams of a cancer victim in pain.
This is America land of the free. We should be free to choose our own time to die and we are indeed able to for no one stops us from ending it at any time. If you want to commit suicide because of mental issues that is different, you can and should be helped.
But if you suffer from a physical illness, no cure is available and you are suffering the Dr's should be allowed to end your life. It should be an act of mercy to end a man's life if the pain is great and he so wishes it.
This could be abused by greedy family members wanting inheritance so these things need to be put into writing well before the mind is effected, if possible. There should be therapy with the family and the patients wants and needs come first. If they still choose to end their life they should be able to make it as peaceful as possible with the loved one around them.
That is my wish for myself. Who else wishes this?
We hold our beloved cats, dogs and rabbits, birds, hamsters, horses when they are ready to pass, stroke their heads, calm them, tell them of our undying love and let them go to the eternal sleep yet with the people we love, we expect them to stay and suffer so we can have them longer instead of letting them go and letting the pain end.
I feel that is selfish.

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Originally Posted by Alysser

It's awful that people need to endure such suffering when they know what they want. Granted, it's not a decision made lightly, but I for one know a few instances where I would not want to live anymore. I think people should be allowed to choose between life or death, especially if death is the only outcome of the situation. It isn't fair to subject people to endless pain, especially if they're going to die anyway. I recall a case where a french women with some type of cancer sued many times over to be euthanized, she unfortunately did not win any of the times but she was obviously suffering a great deal and finally died after 2 years of enduring alot of pain.

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Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sue_Rodriguez

What does one do when the person is too ill to act on their own?

Perhaps this is something that a Dr should bring up and the family should be brought into early. Maybe it should become hospital policy.
Like deciding to become an organ donor, or when making out a will.
Making out a will should be the law, that includes a living will.

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Originally Posted by NicoleLJ

Someone just informed me of this:

http://www.doh.wa.gov/dwda/forms/DWDA_2009.pdf

Washington State actually has this law passed. It is called Death With Dignity Act. The link above is the report of 2009 when it came into effect. It is only allowed for those that are terminally ill and have 6 months or less to live. They are given a set of pills to do it with. I am so glad to see that at least one place has passed something like this.

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The State of Oregon passed a Death With Dignity Act in October of 1997. It was passed in a public referendum.

Nicole, this was not a stupid topic for you to post. If there are some who object to it, they can state their objections without raising a ruckus - or, better yet, just say nothing, and back out of the topic.

I am much closer to the end of my life than to the beginning, and I would hope that my wishes would be honored when the time is right. I often think I should get DNR tattooed on my chest. That stands for Do Not Resuscitate for those not familiar with it.

I work in a Doc's office and we get orders from patients all the time with DNR. It makes me kind of sad but we all die in the end and it is their choice.

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Originally Posted by Asiel

Euthanasia should not be legalized. It is by no means a solution to human suffering. Though euthanasia is a controversial subject, it is evident that it only disrupts the normal pattern of life and leads toward creating a more violent and abusive society. Life is a gift and not a choice and practices such as euthanasia violate this vital concept of human society.

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Oh Asiel.....stop being a fuddy duddy. Of course euthanasia it is a solution to human suffering. Who cares about what it does to society ??? What, are we communists ??? Every life is precious, sure, but at the same time, we all have our own opinions and expectations etc etc. Why on this earth would we want laws or churches to make decisions for us based on what they think is right ??? What are they going to do next ??? Tell us exactly when to eat breakfast ???
Tell me.....how do think it would affect society if someone wanted to end their own life....sick or not ????

There are choices to be made. When you are terminally ill. Living wills can extend your life or end them. Both hospitals & rest homes have residents sign a paper saying they either want to be revived or left go. My mom signed a legal document while in a home not to be revived. They went over the consequences of being revived. It was a sad time. She contracted the flu & only lasted 5 days in the home after having a stroke. Really you just never know how it is going to end for you till it ends.

Euthanasia gives physicians, who are only humans-the right to murder. Doctors are people who we trust to save and cure us, we regard them as the people who have been trained to save our lives but euthanasia gives doctors the opportunity to play God and most seize this opportunity. A perfect example of an opportunist would be Dr. Jack Kevorkian, better known as "Dr. Death" who took advantage of his patients' sorrows and tragedies and murdered them. In fact, Kevorkian has helped more than 100 people commit suicide and not all of his patients were terminally ill. In addition, in the late 1980s the lunatic created a machine for murder, it was a "suicide machine" that allowed a person by pressing a button, to dispense a lethal dose of medication to himself or herself. Later, Dr. Kevorkian was sentenced to ten to twenty-five years in prison for second-degree murder for providing lethal injection to a seriously ill patient. Dr. Jack Kevorkian, however, is not the only example of a doctor who tried to "play God".

There is a big difference to making a living will and asking not to be kept alive by machines..a No Ressuscitation makes sense and everyone should have a living will IMO. As for playing God and just deciding who should live and who should die that isn't up to us.
Many terminally ill patients choose to wait until their bodies give up on their own and I respect that also. What if Christopher Reeves had committed suicide instead of working till the end trying to find a cure for brain and spine injuries? And what about Terry Fox? Was that all in vain? Those are the people I admire and respect..they can accept the good with the bad and help others regardless of their own suffering. To me thar's a life worth living.

As Asiel points out, there is a huge difference with a "living will" (an oxymoron if there ever was) and euthanizing a person. A Health Care Power of Attorney or a "Living Will" allow someone other than the patient to make decisions otherwise left to the patient, but due to some reason, that person can't make the decision.

Where Asiel and I split off though, is the euthanizing aspect of the disucssion. If a person (not a doctor, not a wife...the actual person) wants to end their life, they should be permitted to do so. I think the person should be permitted to do so regardless of the validity of the reasons they might have. But, certainly, when faced with a devasting, incurable, finacially draining, and probably painful process, the person should be permitted to end the suffering. And, the doctor or person that faciliates (carries out) the patients wishes should be immune from liability.

I know your pain, I do......
To have to stand next to the person you love most on this earth, who loves you the most and watch them die...............
It is a pain so deep so all consuming.......
To let them suffer and continue is a living hell.............
I love my children too much to let them go through this......

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Originally Posted by Bonny

There are choices to be made. When you are terminally ill. Living wills can extend your life or end them. Both hospitals & rest homes have residents sign a paper saying they either want to be revived or left go. My mom signed a legal document while in a home not to be revived. They went over the consequences of being revived. It was a sad time. She contracted the flu & only lasted 5 days in the home after having a stroke. Really you just never know how it is going to end for you till it ends.

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You are right Wom,
If you believe God gave us life. He gave us life, what we do with it, how we live it, end it, well that is totally up to us.
We can decide to be good or evil, kind, thoughless, hardworking, lazy, giving, a taker, it is OUR life to decide. And if we want to end it because the pain is too great, well we have that choice.
What happens to peoples souls if they have one is their concern, not mine, nor is it any of my business.
Budda, Hindu, Jew, Jehovah Witness, Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic they all have their own ideas on what happens in the after life and they are entitled to it. It is their right................ I would no more tell a Jewish person or a Buddist that their belief is wrong then I would a Lutheran or Christian Science. Not my call, not my business, not my soul.
God gave us life what we make of it is our OWN choice. No one should have the right to tell one person that their belief is better or correct.
If I am in pain and my body is wrecked with cancer only I can decide when the pain is too great and when I am done fighting. It is MY CHOICE, my soul, my pain, my life.
Having respect for anothers religion is the greatest gift we can give to God.

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Originally Posted by wombat2u2004

Oh Asiel.....stop being a fuddy duddy. Of course euthanasia it is a solution to human suffering. Who cares about what it does to society ??? What, are we communists ??? Every life is precious, sure, but at the same time, we all have our own opinions and expectations etc etc. Why on this earth would we want laws or churches to make decisions for us based on what they think is right ??? What are they going to do next ??? Tell us exactly when to eat breakfast ???
Tell me.....how do think it would affect society if someone wanted to end their own life....sick or not ????

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Originally Posted by wombat2u2004

Oh Asiel.....stop being a fuddy duddy. Of course euthanasia it is a solution to human suffering. Who cares about what it does to society ??? What, are we communists ??? Every life is precious, sure, but at the same time, we all have our own opinions and expectations etc etc. Why on this earth would we want laws or churches to make decisions for us based on what they think is right ??? What are they going to do next ??? Tell us exactly when to eat breakfast ???
Tell me.....how do think it would affect society if someone wanted to end their own life....sick or not ????

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Legalising euthanasia and/or assisted suicide will have a great impact on society and will affect everyone in one way or another.

Having personal autonomy in end-of-life decision making does not mean that family members and friends will not feel guilt, anger or bitterness
The process of medical research to find cures for diseases may be threatened.
Many of the German doctors who participated in the T4 euthanasia programme did so initially for reasons of compassion.
There are fears that hospice and palliative care programmes will be a casualty of legalised EAS.
In the Netherlands voluntary euthanasia has led to non-voluntary euthanasia.

Ask a nurse you know well how much "euthanasia" actually goes on in hospitals today. You'd be surprised.

Medical research wouldn't be able to find cures???? I am talking people who are about to DIE, who are terminal. Trust me, they are NOT the research subjects...and research will still be supported as most people do not want to die of a certain ailment.

Look up Sue Rodriguez. She wanted to die as she had ALS and it was only getting worse. Her appeal went to the BC Supreme Court - and was denied.

She was physically unable to administer any type of suicidal agent...she finally got her wish via an anonymous physician.

Can you document the apparent "fears" of hospice and palliative care units?

Just because assisted suicide becomes legal doesn't mean everyone will choose it!

And BTW - families and friends feel enough grief and guilt about someone that dies of natural causes. It would be best if a doctor administered the injection (or whatever).

Asiel, I hope you can back up what you said...is this stuff you have "just heard/read" or stuff you can provide links or proof to?

You might find some here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_die

Here's a link to the Right to Die Society in Canada
http://www.righttodie.ca/

I saw a piece on the news, I think it was on "60 Minutes" about the high number of older adults who receive care in the ICU that really doesn't prolong or improve their quality of life. There were several reasons for this including- that young doctors aren't given a lot of training on how to have end-of-life discussions; that sometimes the ICU doctor doesn't know the patient very well and might not be familiar with their wishes; that there is a mindset in American medicine that everything must be done/tested/evaluated in case the patient/family later take legal action. If I'm ever in that situation don't prolong my life, but don't deliberately end it either.

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Originally Posted by Asiel

Legalising euthanasia and/or assisted suicide will have a great impact on society and will affect everyone in one way or another.

Having personal autonomy in end-of-life decision making does not mean that family members and friends will not feel guilt, anger or bitterness
The process of medical research to find cures for diseases may be threatened.
Many of the German doctors who participated in the T4 euthanasia programme did so initially for reasons of compassion.
There are fears that hospice and palliative care programmes will be a casualty of legalised EAS.
In the Netherlands voluntary euthanasia has led to non-voluntary euthanasia.

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Ah right.
So it does affect society. Just think of all those people who may lose their jobs in Medical Research institutions and pallative care units......why, they may not be able to afford that new set of China Ducks for their lounge room wall.
Jeez Asiel.....you're right !!! I've been wrong about this all along.
The next time I sit next to a vet riddled with cancer and in so much pain that he can hardly speak, and they whisper to me "John. When will this end ?" I'll say to him....."Well Max, ya gonna have to put up with it for the sake of society and all of those other things important to mankind, and for God to....he reckons you have to lay here in agony until you have a stroke or heart attack from the pain. And how do I know that Max ??? Well...a priest told me that, and if I go against His law, then I will burn in Hell. So Max old mate, I know you did lots for your country and all, but I guess you just can't be selfish about all of this pain stuff, you'll just have to put up with it."
You know Asiel.....Catty1 dropped the goodies. Upping the morphine to see someone out painlessly has been going on for years and years...it's really not talked about much, but I can tell you it goes on ALL of the time. And I know that for a fact, because I see so many vets take their last breath it isn't funny.....it's what I see to help them on their way.
But you know....it's got nothing to do with Medical Science, or society or God or anything else that mankind has invented......it's simply compassion....nothing else....just compassion.

I believe we should cease using counterfeit terms to describe euthanasia, and call it deliberate murder—for unquestionably that is what we are talking about. Our laws were formulated to grant everyone in society equal protection from abuse; not to encourage wickedness, nor protect law breaker s from punishment. Neo-humanitarian medicine must not include procedures that would involve the intentional taking of life. Even if you painlessly kill a person, it is still murder. Many murders, like suicide, are executed without inflicting suffering. Physicians may lavishly dispense compassion, time, and understanding; but physicians must never dispense death. That is not in their job description. Killing in the name of compassion and mercy is wrong for all the right reasons

I've just received a mail telling me this subject has been posted on several other sites for the sole purpose of stirring up controversy so I won't be dicussing it any further. We can all hold on to what we believe in and no harm done.

Yes it has been posted by me on the forums I am on because I thought it would make a good discussion and it has. Not to stir up controversy. And guess what. Very few disagree with the majority here. And none of them have turned into a negative thread. All are being talked about in an adult manner. Just because YOU don't like peoples opinions on the matter does not mean it was started for the reason you stated. So don't imply something that I did not do please.

As the you calling it murder, which it is not. Then I guess that means every single pet owner, me and you included, are murderers as well. Ending someones suffering because that is their wish is not the same thing as killing someone agianst their will.

Right on, Nicole.

You can die with dignity if you can stand the pain. Doctors administer pain killers but they don't always work. They are careful too, so they don't shut down your organs instantly. Personally if I was terminal suffering & in a lot of pain religion or no religion I would want the pain to cease. It would be please please put me out of my misery. Give me a good shot of something & let me go. I have seen to many people suffer in my life time. :(

This is a good thread. It makes you think & everyones input is important.

I've often said that if the time ever came when I was suffering w/an incurable disease that I'd want to have the option to die w/dignity by my own hand. A friend of mine unexpectedly died just a few days ago in his sleep, the way that many of us say that we'd like to go. After thinking about it, though, I would not want to go that way unexpectedly. If I were seriously ill and knew that death was imminent, then, yes, dying in my sleep would be preferable to long term suffering. Otherwise, as long as I have my mind in good working order, I want to live and use my mind to help me attain that goal. However, if the suffering becomes unbearable or if I can no longer take care of myself (I live alone), then I feel that it should be my right to choose when to leave this earth. I hold the belief that this life is not the only life there is and I say that, not to start another discussion about life after death and/or to highjack this thread, but I say it b/c that's what I believe. We help our beloved pets to die when the quality of life is no longer present; we should be able to make that same decision for ourselves. No one should be able to make that decision for us but the doctors who might help us in this endeavor should be held harmless.

A great post. :)

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Originally Posted by NicoleLJ

Yes it has been posted by me on the forums I am on because I thought it would make a good discussion and it has. Not to stir up controversy. And guess what. Very few disagree with the majority here. And none of them have turned into a negative thread. All are being talked about in an adult manner. Just because YOU don't like peoples opinions on the matter does not mean it was started for the reason you stated. So don't imply something that I did not do please.

As the you calling it murder, which it is not. Then I guess that means every single pet owner, me and you included, are murderers as well. Ending someones suffering because that is their wish is not the same thing as killing someone agianst their will.

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I believe is someone is suffering they should be allowed to have that suffering end. The same as I've done for 6 of my pets over the years. When their quality of life diminished to the point that living was no longer a good thing I made the choice to let them go. Painful as it was/is. Why do we treat our pets better than ourselves?

This next comment is pretty graphic, warning you ahead of time.

Why, when my sister's brains were oozing out of every orifice in her head did the doctors feel the need to bring her back from not one, not two, but three heart attacks? Thank goodness she was finally allowed to die when my parents said next one, let her go. If she had survived she would have been a mere shell of herself. She needed to be let go and she was.

3 months later my brother was in a car accident. Similar to my sister, he had a serious head injury, following surgery it was determined he was brain dead. We allowed his organs to be harvested and he was let go.

Neither one of them would have wanted to live in the state they would have been in had they survived.

Bottom line, end the suffering. No one, be they human or animal should be made to suffer.

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Originally Posted by NicoleLJ

Yes it has been posted by me on the forums I am on because I thought it would make a good discussion and it has. Not to stir up controversy. And guess what. Very few disagree with the majority here. And none of them have turned into a negative thread. All are being talked about in an adult manner. Just because YOU don't like peoples opinions on the matter does not mean it was started for the reason you stated. So don't imply something that I did not do please.

As the you calling it murder, which it is not. Then I guess that means every single pet owner, me and you included, are murderers as well. Ending someones suffering because that is their wish is not the same thing as killing someone agianst their will.

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Yes, it has made good discussion. And I'm sure this subject is on everyones mind. After all, we all die and we'd all like to go out painlessly and with dignity.
I'm glad you posted this Nicole, it has helped me understand the fors and againsts.