Need Advice on Finnegan *UPDATE POST #21*

Okay, I really need some advice. I've grown very attached to Finn, but there is no way he can stay. I want to find the best home I can for him. Either one that he will do flyball or another dog sport in, or a home with another dog. A home with both would be amazing!

A lady emailed me last night asking for more on Finn. But she mentioned he would be in the crate from 8am-12:30pm, and 1pm-4pm. Her son would come home at lunch to let him out (APPARENTLY. But how many youngs teens actually do this after they get over the "I HAVE A NEW PUPPY!" stage?). To add, they don't have any other pets and he would be in his crate home alone, pretty much 8 hours a day.

I am torn. I don't know if I should keep waiting for a different home or just stop being picky.

Advice?

BE PICKY.

I hate the idea of crating a dog almost "all day".. to me, from 8am-12pm and 1-4pm?! That's too much. That's what my ex-roommate did with the husky puppy last year at the old house I lived at...

I work 8-4, my dogs stay in crates while I'm gone. Does this make me an unsuitable dog owner? :confused: They go right in and lay down, are sleeping when I come home, they seem like happy, well loved dogs to me...

Actually when I have a day off they often want to go in their crates and sleep too, but I usually don't let them so they find a place in the yard or house to sleep. I take them to work with me at least once a week, and they hang out in crates there too with no problem. They sleep the entire time. Even if I let them out they end up going back in the crates or a corner to sleep (well, except when Shilo is there too, then its husky playtime outside the crate...she and Keva sleep when they are in the crate together).

If it were my own house I'd try leaving them (at least Nebo) loose in the house, but its my parents house and that's their rules.

Two of my dogs are crated 7 hours a day through the weekdays. I don't think that's bad. I usually come home for lunch but that's only 15 minutes. Layla will go in her crate and sleep when we are home. I would find out what they'll be doing with Finn the other hours in the day.;)

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Originally Posted by wolf_Q

I work 8-4, my dogs stay in crates while I'm gone. Does this make me an unsuitable dog owner? :confused:

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For the most part I agree with Wolf_Q. The last job I had (working at a vets) I was usually gone 13hrs a day (45 min drive to work one way - TYPICALLY worked 7am-6pm so left around 6, got home around 7pm.... there were some days I got stuck there until 8pm!) It really sucked but honestly the dogs didn't seem to mind... though I certianly did!.. I live alone, so its just me and my dogs....

8am-12:30pm, and 1pm-4pm doesn't sound to horrible to me at all!... my dogs just slept when I was gone, some of them I could leave outside during the day, but many of them where inside..... as long as they can give the dog enough exercise and play time when they are home I really don't see it as being a huge issue. People gotta work!... and 8-4 (with possibly a break in between there at times) doesn't sound horrible..... but JMO.... I'm getting ready to start a new job very soon, but this time luckily its only 10 min. from my house and fairly flexible hours....

Obviously you are a good dog owner. I just don't really like the idea of crating my dogs that long, but that's just me. But we both are different, we never had to crate our dogs in our household. :) Everyone has their own rules.

But most of y'all probably have heard about my horrible roommate and Zeus. By the way, Zeus is gone now. His parents took his dog, because at almost a year old, he was not potty trained. From what I heard, he is living with another family now that offered to take him.. but FROM my side, he was very miserable and destructive for being crated up for long period of times, but wouldn't that mean he was never properly trained? Just wondering.

I doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't properly kennel trained (although, he probably wasn't). Some dogs just can't stand it. Personally, I believe in the long run it isn't healthy for dogs to be in crates, regardless of size, through puppy and adulthood.

Our rescue director emailed me her opinion, and she thinks 8 hours in a crate for a 3 1/2 month old high drive BC is too much.

I really appreciate the input, though.

And Amy, you are absolutely NOT an unsuitable dog owner!!!

Hmmm.... that really is a difficult decision. Especially being how special Finn is to you. :(

My friend has a Border Collie puppy. She lives with her brother and her Mom, and I live about 5 minutes away. Sadie was crated when she needed to be, but we worked out our schedules every day so that she wasn't in it for more than 3 hours at a time, and she had a good 1-2 hours of running and playing in between crate time.

To me, honestly, a BC puppy is not going to be physically and mentally exercised properly with that kind of schedule. I would recommend that the family adopts a BC that is a mature adult. There were a few days when Sadie was in her crate for longer periods, and my friend called me unexpectedly to visit and let her out. She was obviously VERY tired of being in that crate, when I got there. With a breed like this, 8 hours of solid crating EVERY day, with only a half an hour break... it's just not the ideal situation, in my opinion.

If these people were very experienced with the breed, or if Finn would be getting a solid 1-2 hours of play and free time in between crating, or if they were going to actively involve him in dog sports/training, it might be different... but if they're the "average" home, I would not adopt him out to that situation. Plus, with a LOT of people, they will make a situation sound much better than it actually is. Like you said, who knows of the teenager will actually be coming home every single day and who knows if he'll do anything more than take Finn out to eliminate and put him right back in? Unless they will be incredibly commited to dedicating basically ALL of their time at home, before and after work/school, to playing with Finn, socializing Finn, and training Finn, I can see such a situation being detrimental to the development of a puppy of such an intelligent and active breed. Isn't Finn a bit undersocialized, too? I would be very picky in his case especially, to find a home that knows what they're doing and has time to work with him in this important stage of his puppyhood.

When I adopted Fozzie, it was stated on his Petfinder page that some one had to be home most or part of the day. Luckily, there is basically always some one home with the dogs here. I don't think it's incredibly picky to ask that at least part of a full work day is spent at home with a young puppy... particularly in breeds that do need lots of physical and mental stimulation to be happy and well-adjusted.

In a perfect world, you could find him someone who doesn't work, who has another dog and who competes in a dog sport. :D

But, in this world, I say be picky, but choose your battles, too. If it were me, I'd be more concerned about what they did with the dog when they *were* home then when they *weren't* (unless it was leaving them chained up outside when they weren't).

MY Finn was crated til he was two years old. I don't know how anyone trains a puppy if they're not home and the puppy is left to run around the house. EEK. I shudder to think what Finn would have done to my place if he'd been left out while I was at work.

But, when I was home, we were pretty much always doing something. Whether it was walking, training, playing, eating, laying together, etc.

If you have the choice between someone who is going to crate your Finn for 8 hours a day, but then take him to flyball when he gets home, or play ball or take long walks or train for flyball...or someone who stays home all day, and doesn't crate Finn for very long, but never does more than just letting him outside for potty breaks and a walk once a week or something, I'd go with the crate 8 hours a day. But, that's just me. :D

Good luck, whatever you decide to do. To me, it doesn't sound like this family is right for Finn, regardless of the crate. Only because I think if you had a good feeling about him, the crate thing would be secondary. I could be way off on that, but that was just my gut feeling when I read your post.

I completely agree with bckrazy. If they were an active sports home or a very breed experienced home, it'd be a different story. I don't think it's a matter of whether crating for 8 hours a day is right or wrong for your typical family dog -- It's whether it's right or not for a Border Collie pup. Your typical Border Collie is high drive and NEEDS work. Eight hours of crating would be living hell for a dog that was bred to work all day. I work full time and spend a ton of time working with Keeva because she needs a job. It's already overwhelming as it is without having her crated for 8 hours a day.

Are they set on a pup? An older, lower drive BC might fit her family a little better.. :)

I guess it has to do with the breed too... a BC might need more out time than crate time..

huskies can and are also active dogs... and can and are very very destructive if bored :p... so no matter what breed you get it´s also an individual thing... I think you should consider what was suggested, what are they actually doing when he´s out of crating... as he´ll need TONS of exercise and stimulation to "conpensate"..

in this particular case I would recommend to keep looking...

Queeq, a Pom, gets "crated" in a bathroom from 8:30 to 4.... sometimes 5... but then she´s out... then goes back to sleep at 9:30-10p.m. and she doesn´t complains or whines... but she´s a smaller dog... but when out she does a few laps and then just plays normally...

I have read a bit here on crate training...I think it depends on the size of the crate and the type of training.

If it is a larger dog cage with a doggy bed, food, water, toys - and IF the pup is trained to see it as a happy safe place, it can work very well.

It should NEVER be used for punishment.

If you are talking to this person again, you might ask what kind of crate they are thinking of, and how they crate trained their previous dogs. (If they never have had dogs, and HAVEN'T crate trained any, well, there you go!);)

Personally, I have NO probs with Crating the dogs for 8hrs. That is a Standard work shift.And the fact that she is having someone come to let the dog out in the middle of the day is good.
I personally feel if a dog is getting Enough Excersize Out of the crate.. Then crating them 7-8 hr a day is fine and dandy.
Everyone has to remember Dogs are Den animals, and if trained right.. don't mind sitting in the crate that long.
I Don't work right now, But when I do.. My Foster is in a crate.. the whole time, as I have no one to come in the middle of the day to let him out.. And he is fine.
He sleeps in the crate at night, because otherwise he would destroy my house.. and that is a MIN of 8hrs. And he sleeps the whole time. :-/ And he is a happy Puppy.. No issues at all.
With the Economy the way it is.. finding someone that can afford a dog, that DOESNT Work 8+ hrs .. is going to be hard. But leaving a pup or dog out of the crate .. that isn't trained.. is a bad idea in my eyes. That could end up with the dog in the hospital for eating somthing you didn't think he could. Or you coming home to a destroyed home.

So, that is my 2 cents

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Originally Posted by binka_nugget

I don't think it's a matter of whether crating for 8 hours a day is right or wrong for your typical family dog -- It's whether it's right or not for a Border Collie pup.

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I was going to say the same.

Border Collies are special dogs that need special owners. They are not just high energy. They are not just intelligent and biddable. They don't just need obedience training. BC's are *intense*. I never really understood what that meant until I got Ivy, but, now that I do know what it means, I know that intense dogs need intensely committed owners.

Crating 8 hours a day for a high drive, intense BC pup may be doable if the owner was highly active outside of the crating times. So that, then, becomes your question: Are they as intense as the dog or are they ready to commit to it?

I personally never crated my dogs unless it was for housebreaking. BC are especially prone to destructive behaviors if they don't have their exercise needs met, hen the owners wonder why... Dogs are den animals but even den animals roam during the day and go back to the den to sleep at night. I've had friends crate their dogs while they worked all day and it was easy to see the dogs were bored and not that well behaved. I would wait for a more suitable home. Teens have a lot of stuff going on , they might not want to continue coming home to let the pup out.

Why not go hang out at a local training place, during flyball practice, have him with you, see if anyone would be interested?

Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by binka_nugget

I don't think it's a matter of whether crating for 8 hours a day is right or wrong for your typical family dog -- It's whether it's right or not for a Border Collie pup.

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You said it! Finnegan is going to a LOT of work.

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Originally Posted by Animalhouse26

Personally, I have NO probs with Crating the dogs for 8hrs. That is a Standard work shift.
Everyone has to remember Dogs are Den animals, and if trained right.. don't mind sitting in the crate that long.

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Denning is a lot different than crating. We've just taken the idea and implented it in a new way.

Just because 8 hours of work is normal for us, doesn't mean dogs understand 8 hours of crating and will just shut up and deal with it. Especially a high drive BC pup from herding lines.

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Originally Posted by Freedom

Why not go hang out at a local training place, during flyball practice, have him with you, see if anyone would be interested?

Just a thought.

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He came to flyball last night, and he did awesome. And he's only 3 1/2 months! No one was really interested.

Just a thought, perhaps try posting on the AgilCan yahoo group? It's the unofficial official (:p) Agility Association of Canada list. Some of Canada's top trainers are on that list.. who knows. :)

For a high energy BC pup i would say 8 hours in a crate is probably not fair to him at all.

But like others said, most people's dogs are left in a crate for 8 hours a day. The average dog owner generally has a full time job where they can't be at home with the dog.

When I was working my dogs would be in their crates from 6:30 AM til 5:45 PM on a normal 10 hour day and longer if we worked more hours.

It's not the best situation but they deffinately didn't suffer and got plenty of exercise when I was home.

Obviously we'd all love to find great homes for dogs where they aren't left alone alot but if the "worst" thing about a potential home is that the dog will spend 8 hours a day in a crate....then i'd say they are a pretty good home to adopt to, maybe a high energy puppy wouldn't be suitable but I'm sure you could find them an adult that would suit their family

Honestly, Jess, it would be fine for some dogs. Sassy LOVED her crate and did not mind it in the least bit. She slept in it willingly more then her bed, etc. BUT she was NOT an active dog in the least bit either. But for a high-energy dog who needs stimulation it would NOT be a good idea. Did you ask the lady if she would participate in agility or flyball with him? I mean, if she was willing to take him to the dog park after work, really long walks, etc and on the weekends take him to flyball or agility then I would consider it but you can't totally trust she will do this. If I were you I'd do some serious questioning and if she still appears to be iffy on the idea then don't persue it any further.

I know some dogs can do it. But Finn is not "some dogs". He was feral, and hates being alone. He needs a canine companion, as well as someone home enough for him. A home that crates him from 8-4 would NOT be good for him.

This thread was about whether or not it was good for him... not dogs in general.

Anyway, it looks like Finnegan may be going to a Search And Rescue home. :) I'll update more later.

I would keep the dog until someone you trust to take him into a good home accepts and wishes to take them.

No offense, I'm not saying you're a bad owner because you're busy. Dogs can be alot of work, so it just takes active homes. :love: Hope he finds a good home.

Good luck!!

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Lady's Mom

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Originally Posted by RipplingWaves55

I would keep the dog until someone you trust to take him into a good home accepts and wishes to take them.

No offense, I'm not saying you're a bad owner because you're busy. Dogs can be alot of work, so it just takes active homes. :love: Hope he finds a good home.

Good luck!!

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Lady's Mom

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Finnegan is not mine, and I am not rehoming him... I am fostering him.