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Hi there everyone,
Just wondering what everybodys opinions are on dominace theory?
Do you think that your dog is actively trying to dominate you? Do you purposely not let him walk through doorways before you? Do you make sure he is never allowed on the sofa, in your bed etc? Do you always eat before him and make sure he see's this ? If so do you believe that if you didnt do these things then his behaviour and attitude towards you would change?
Thanks in advance for your responses!
Fi
xxx
I do think it important for the owner to be clear about being the pack leader. Not everything you listed, however. Dogs have to have "someone" in charge, or they take the lead.
I feed the dogs (and the cats) at 4 PM. We don't eat until 6, so I can't say I eat first and make sure they see this! lol.
Bichons can't live unless they ARE on beds and sofas, lol. Some of us believe it is vital to their survival ha ha haa.
I do insist I go through doors first, but that is not dominance, it is safety -- for my dogs! I have to see what is there first and determine it is safe for them to proceed. I have always done this, but it was also taught in Lacey's Obedience course in Nov / Dec. we have coyotes in the neighborhood, I would never want my dog to go out first, even though on a lead. Who or what will she encounter???
So I am not clear what you mean by dominance theory, as your examples don't work for my dogs. Yet they do know I am the BOSS.
I am a believer in the dominance theory. I had a Great Dane and he was such a good dog. He would not go through a door until I got out and gave him a command. He waited for a command before he ate his food, or took a treat. Also, he wouldn't get his food until after his walk, that way he felt like he earned it.
I found this list of some behaviours that may inidicate dominance:
Pushing through doors, inside or outside, before you. Jumping or reaching for food or treat before it is put down or in reach.
Putting his or her feet on you, standing on or pawing at you.
Barking at you when told to do something or when he or she wants something.
Trying to be physically taller than you.
Getting on furniture before you or before being given permission.
Reluctance to move from a spot you want to sit on, walk through or put something in.
Reluctance to release food or toys.
Staring at you; prolonged eye contact except when you ask for it in a training or working situation.
Reluctance to obey simple, normal commands such as sit, go-out, get-off, etc. May be a refusal or slow compliance.
Marking (urinating or defecating) in house, marking your personal belongings or bed.
Running into you or jumping on you hard during play. This is a display of physical superiority and rights.
Growling or barking at you during play.
Sexual behaviors, such as mounting, with an inappropriate partner.
Putting her or his head on or over your head or shoulders.
Holding chews or toys against you while chewing or playing with toy.
Any attempt to shove you out of the way when walking, sitting with, moving past or laying with you.
Mouthing you at any time, any placing of her or his mouth on you whether in protest, during play or during petting.
Eating before you.
Not accepting petting or touching on top of his or her head or body.
Getting playful or cute instead of obeying when told to do things. The dog may obey briefly and immediately resume previous behavior.
Guarding food, toys or locations that they see as theirs.
Nudges your hand, mouths your arm, or insists on being petted or played with—in other words, he "orders" you to obey.
I chose 'No', but I don't mean that I don't believe in it. I just don't use it.
I got my dog when I was 9-10 years old, so I didn't think of being dominate. I only saw him as my friend. :) We would race to see who could get through the doorway first, so I wasn't always the first to go through. He has always slept in my bed with me and sits beside me on the couch. We eat at the same time. He still comes when I call and behaves when I ask him to. I feel like we're on the same level. Its been this way for the past 7 years, and I don't believe I will change my ways with this dog.
I'm not saying I would never use the dominance technique, as I recognize the fact that some dogs(some breeds in-particular) need to know for sure who is dominant or they will take control and try to dominate their owner.
I said don't know. I believe you should make it clear to the animal in question WHO is boss, but I don't think it is necessary to do all the things listed. With all the dogs I've encountered once they knew who the boss was, they remained that way and never crossed the line. I know a very sweet little shih-zu who will wait for me to go down the steps before he does, if you say he can go he will but that is only unless you say so. I thought that was really cute. :)
to a point. my dogs DO have a pecking order, they DO get pissed off if I dont feed them in their pecking order. I DONT believe they are always trying to dominate me, I DONT always go through doors before them(quite the opposite, I send them ahead of me on purpose). however this is not to say my dogs wont observe ome of these things on their own. Rusty for example will NOT go through doors or gates ahead of me, he simpley wont do it and for the life of me I cannot convince him otherwise lol. my dogs sleep on my bed with me, they sit in my lap, they lick my face and climb on my shoulders etc.. I have never had a issue of my dogs trying pull rank over me, if anything I work with them to not be so bloody submissive toward me, its annoying lol
I'm the authoritative dog mom, not permissive or aggressive. Sometimes the rules of this theory get too extreme.
My dogs are trained that if given the command, they will sit and let me go through the door first. But I don't command this often.
My dogs are expected to wait until the food is poured and my hands are away before eating it. But they eat before I do.
My dogs are expected to be on the bed, and they are the ones that don't often want to be there. Autumn sighs and guilts me into letting her sleep in her kennel. She stills waits until I say its ok.
My dogs growl when they play with me. Growling is not always aggressive. Cockers especially growl when they are excited. They throat talk. You can tell when growling is accompanied by aggression or when it is accompanied by play by body language and the situation itself. If you can't tell, you shouldn't have a dog.
My dogs don't need an invite to be on the furnature, but they are expected to get off whenever commanded. They know not to bother jumping up when there is food, they don't challenge that rule.
My dogs don't challenge me when given commands, so I act appropriately by giving them freedoms and not enforcing my dominance when its not needed.
If needed, I'll tell them how high to jump, but so long as they behave I am relaxed with the rules.
Now, the airedale challenges me, but she backs down darn quick. If I lived with her full-time she'd be an angel.
Dogs are pack animals. Therefore, they have a pack order. There is no such thing as "equal rights" to a dog. No dog is "equal" to another dog in the pack. There is a ladder system, where one dog occupies one rung, with dogs above and below them. This is the natural order of a dog's mind.
I believe how "dominant" you must present yourself as to your dog depends on how dominant your dog is naturally. Alpha dogs are born, IMO. If the dog has dominant tendencies, you will need to be more dominant to the dog in order to say to him/her, in his/her own language, "You can be the number two creature in this pack, but I am the number one!"
With a naturally submissive dog, sometimes all you have to do is give them "the look" once.
I have never encountered a dog, even very dominant dogs, that anyone would have to go through even close to all of the above mentioned steps with, in order to establish dominance. But, I'm sure they exist.
I think a lot of it has to do with your natural level of dominance as well. Some people, like some dogs, just naturally are leaders. Dogs sense this. I know I have far less trouble with dominant dogs than one of my employees does. She is a very submissive person by nature. I am not. :p
I do believe in having a clear pack leader. My dogs know darn well who is in charge. They wouldn't be caught dead trying to eat off my plate, mounting another dog or someone's limb, marking in the house, etc. I don't make it a point to eat first, walk through door ways first, get them off the couch/bed, make them do something in exchange for attention, etc. They get handed things off my plate occasionally but would never help themselves. They will wait by the door until I give the okay. I expect my dogs to have manners in the house, and know when I mean business and they know what is expected of them.
Kaedyn was the only one who ever challenged me -- but this was way back when I adopted him 4 years ago. I made it clear I didn't tolerate such things (his form of punishment was a stern "No!" and crate time -- nothing harsh). Within a short period of time, he also understood his place in the pack.
I'm working on it with my two - Archie is the more dominant of the two but they both need to know that I'm in charge
LOL, love this.Quote:
Originally Posted by IRescue452
I learned a LOT from reading everyone's replies. I didn't understand what you were asking about in this poll when I replied first; I didn't realize how formalized this theory gets. Guess I need to do a bit more reading.
Thanks for teaching me something (again) today!
I chose "No" because of how terribly the "dominance theory" has been misunderstood and misconstrued.
Dogs may be very well related to wolves, but they are NOT wolves. They've been domesticated. And I don't think the dominance theory can really apply when you're dealing with mixed species. I'm sure you can apply leadership to a certain degree with pet dogs, but most social animals have a certain 'pecking order' anyways. It's natural for most social animals to choose and follow a leader (even humans). However, I don't believe that there are dogs who are in a constant state of trying to gain dominance. Lack of clear rules and leadership? Sure, but I don't think you have to necessarily "dominate" a dog.
Clear as mud, eh?
ETA: Yeah, my dogs leave the house first. They eat in separate rooms from us so it doesn't matter to them whether the humans or dogs eat first. They don't walk beside/behind me when on leash. They have furniture privileges. BUT, they also wait before their dinner. They have concrete "Gives". They've never growled or bitten me. They allow me to poke/prod them. I can brush their teeth, clean their ears, grind their nails, and I don't get a single peep from them.
So I guess I should say, I believe in a benevolent leader theory (thanks Pat McConnell :) )
As long as my dog respects me as the leader and has manners, I'm fine. Every once and a while I get down on my hands and knees and "play like a dog". He loves it, and I don't always play the big dominant leader, but he isn't a very testing dog.
I expect my dog to sit when I tell him, go out the door only when I tell him he is allowed to, and he is not allowed on the upstairs furniture (my parents' choice)
When I was younger I would subconsciously NEED to go first, have him walk behind me, do exactly as I said, etc, and it was way too harsh. I realized what I was doing and backed off.
Not really. I have 25 dogs who live as a pack. They have a pecking order, but it's not set in stone, expect for the alpha male. He never has to defend his position. He just is the alpha. I have to agree with Twisterdog, Alpha dogs are born. Muskwa was an alpha male before his eyes were fully open! The lower ranking dogs change their positions on an almost daily basis.
I do not reinforce Muskwa as the boss dog. I don't feed him first; I don't care who goes in first; they sleep on the bed and get on the furniture; I let them out in front of me; I step over instead of making them move. As the keeper of all good things--walks, truck rides, sled runs, food, ect, I automatically have great power. I am the alpha female and they all know it--they may test it from time to time, but they know!
Dominance theory doesn't even really apply to wolves, at least not the way it is most commonly interpreted. A wolf who has to be forced to submit by higher ranking pack members is dead. No wolf ever alpha rolled another wolf unless he meant to inflict injury! Wolves submit to their alphas voluntarily. Dominance is not aggression. It makes their lives easier and the pack functions better. It takes too much energy and the risks are too high for wolves to waste their time fighting with each other. Their efforts are better spent on things that help them survive, like hunting.
Thanks Glacier!! Can I use your post as a reference on other forums? There are just some diehards on other boards who firmly believe you have to roll a dog, you gotta poke and prod them, you gotta correct them all the time, etc. I would really love to use your post as an example of what an alpha really means and how it doesn't apply the way we think it does.
Sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giselle
There's a researcher at the University of Minnesota whose work I like, Dr. L. David Mech. He's spent much of his career debunking the strict hierarchy/alpha theory in wild wolf packs. Google his name, all kinds of stuff comes up!
There's a great chapter in Tamar Gellar's book, The Loved Dog, about her studies of a wild wolf pack and how they established dominance through play and games. I really like her ideas and training theories. If Cesar Milan's tactics turn you off(as they do to me), you'll like Tamar's!
Sequoia as well. She came into our home at 6 weeks old, weighing 2 pounds. By the time she was housetrained 2 weeks later, she was well on her way to the alpha female position. She is by far the smallest and youngest of all our dogs, but she is unquestionably the alpha female.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glacier
Very true. And almost without fail, a true alpha dog will never hurt another dog. I have never seen Keito so much as make contact with another dog in the twelve years I've had him, yet he is unquestionably the alpha male, of not only our own dogs, but the hundreds of fosters and rescues we've had over the years, from one hundred pound malamutes to pit bulls. He doesn't have to be aggressive, he gives off "the vibe". The most he has to do is raise his lip, snarl, and very rarely scream and lunge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Glacier
That's Muskwa. Dogs he's never seen before just know not to bother! He's never been in a fight and we've had some big ones! He can stop a squabble just by glaring at the other dogs!Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisterdog