It just had to come to this didn't it.. **sigh**

As most of you know I have had concerns about Daisy *pitbull* for a while.. her fear aggression is just not getting better..

In the Summertime My BIL and his girlfriend brought over their son (2 years old). We were all sitting in the living room chatting, while my nephew cruised around the living room playing with Ebony (Lab) and Tikeya (Husky).. I wondered where Daisy(pitbull) ran off too, so my BF went downstairs to find her and bring her up to get affiliated with our nephew (I was still preggo and Daisy had never really met any babies before)

Shaun brought Daisy (pitbull) upstairs, and she was acting REALLY sketchy.. She was stairing right into our nephews eyes, lowering her head, tail in between her legs.. she was shaking with fear... I watched Daisy very closely as her whole disposition changed from bad to worse.. I could see that our Nephews parents were very nervous that Daisy was acting so affraid of their two year old..

They asked if Daisy was safe.. My boyfriend replied-saying that shes fine.. So they continued to let the baby walk around the room and play with the dogs.. As the baby got close to Daisy she hid behind the coffee table, by Shauns legs... Our nephew went around the other side of the table to see her, and thats when she Charged at him barking, and growling.. If shaun wasn't there to grab her, she would have bitten him.. I'm sure of it... This all happened while Dominic was still in my tummy.

Well its been about 6months since that happened, and I worked REALLY hard trying to socialise Daisy with people and kids.. She is getting way better with adults (she is nervous and hides when new people come up to her, of any age).. I even talked to a dog behaviorist.. She said that it sounds like Daisy has bad genetics, and her parents were probably the same way if not worse *we never met her parents, friuends of ours gave Daisy to shaun when she was a puppy* she said that sometimes dogs like Daisy may never get better, or be able to be trusted around kids... This statement REALLY worried me..

So Daisy hasn't really been around any kids younger then 8 since that inncodent happened *mainly because I dont trust her AT ALL*.


Yesterday my Boyfriends, Brother and son(1 years old) came by for a visit..
And Daisy sure enough was hiding again, acting really nervous and sketchy.. She hid downstairs... When we went downstairs, she ran and hid in her kennel.. The baby of course followed her, but I made sure to pick him up before he got into the same situation as our other nephew did.

I am so scraed that Daisy might bite a child.. or Dominic when he starts walking.. I dont know what to do.. I told my Boyfriend that we cant have her acting this way.. He goes up to Daisy, and talks to her in baby talk; asking "whats wrong pretty puppy girl? Why are you so scared".. then he snuggles with her... I just dont think he sees what I see in her.. Hes in denial.

I just dont know what to do.. Daisy doesn't trust anyone.. Only me, my mom, and Shaun. None of our friends like her or want her.. I doubt we could find anyone who would want to adopt her from us... And I think when it comes down to it, getting rid of her is our only option, but I dont think Shaun will be able to give her up.. I can see him procrastinating till hell freezes over.. or untill one of the kids actually does get bitten...

I just dont know what to do.. :(

I can understand the points of view of both of you on this one. Not a nice situation at all, especially as it will be difficult to rehome Daisy because of her mistrusting nature. Things like this can be genetic but they can also come out of nowhere. Our Monty and Mist threw a daughter, Tess, who was really nervous with strangers although she was good with the kids she lived with and got to know the friends of the kids who visited often pretty quick, she was quite nervous with strangers and very aggressive towards strange visitors to the house but neither of her parents or their parents were anything like that and our Jess, her older sister, is nothing like that either. Tess was like this from being a pup and had no reason for it to develop. It was just the way she was. Daisy's parents might have had behavioural issues but they may not have...like with Tess's parents who were both confident and enjoyed getting fusses from strangers.

Still, the most important thing is the safety of your child and if you believe that Daisy could be a danger to him when he's old enough to walk, it isn't really safe to keep her.

Some dogs do dislike kids full stop and won't have their minds changed about that. The way they'd treat an annoying pup like snapping at it when it bothered them would be deemed acceptable behaviour when it is a pup they are snapping at but if that dog displays the same behaviour towards a child, it then becomes unacceptable behaviour....even though it's the same thing to the dog. Pups are covered in hair and this protects their skin and the chances of them ending up with injury from being snapped at by an elder is very minimal but children have no hair on their faces and thin delicate skin which is easily broken even without an actual bite, just from a tooth scraping against it and so they are more likely to come out with minor injuries even from a dog who only intended to make them sling their hook and not actually hurt them. Not all dogs are as diplomatic mind and might go further than simply snapping at or nipping the child.

When I was a young child, we had a red and white Border collie called Jim. He never liked us children either but he wasn't frightened of us, just growled a bit if we went too close to him and ignored us otherwise. None of us ever got bitten by our Jim and he was still happy for us to throw a ball for him...just so long as we didn't try to touch him. I suppose he taught me how to respect and leave dogs alone sometimes...that they aren't toys. We were warned by our elders that he might bite us if we ignored his warning growls. He died when I was about 7 and he was 14 so already getting into his senior years by the time I was able to walk around.

Has Daisy had any contact with your baby so far and how does she react? If she's familiar with him by the time he starts to walk, she might not be frightened of him like she is the other children that have visited but if she does show that same behaviour, it's better to be safe than sorry where children are concerned...especially small ones who don't understand the dangers of approaching a dog that doesn't want to be approached.

I'm no canine behavioralist or anything, but using the same theory as I do for any animal...

Why does your BF drag the poor frightened animal out in the first place? If the dog is already afraid enough to hide, I don't see that chasing her around then dragging her to come face to face with what's she's afraid of is going to help any. If anything I would guess that it's making it worse.

That's a tough situation when one person sees the danger but the other one doesn't. I don't envy your situation at all, and I hope you can find a solution to the problem (either with the dog or your BF) before someone gets hurt.

Good luck

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Originally Posted by tikeyas_mom

He goes up to Daisy, and talks to her in baby talk; asking "whats wrong pretty puppy girl? Why are you so scared".. then he snuggles with her...

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Is he doing this while she is frightened and hiding? If so this could be a big part of the problem. He's "praising" her and confirming that she's right to be scared. Fear aggression is a very serious thing and I do not think she should be put in a situation where she feels trapped or cornered with the toddlers/babies coming at her. I would highly advise you seek the help of a behaviorist to work with everyone and Daisy. Meanwhile I'd let her be in a safe, separated area when there are young children around instead of making her be in the room with them and putting her in a 'fight or flight' situation.

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Has Daisy had any contact with your baby so far and how does she react? If she's familiar with him by the time he starts to walk, she might not be frightened of him like she is the other children that have visited but if she does show that same behaviour, it's better to be safe than sorry where children are concerned...especially small ones who don't understand the dangers of approaching a dog that doesn't want to be approached.

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She doesnt seem to really mind the baby too much she just avoids him.. He does once in a while come up to him while Shaun holds him.. She usually sniffs him and then when the baby moves or makes a noise she just stares at him and stiffens up.. then she usually runs and hides..

I just dont think its fair to have her aorund when dominic starts tog et a bit older, alot of my friends have kids the same age and I dont want to NEVER have play dates here because Daisy is a fear aggressive..
I seriously hate the situation I am in with her... and my boyfriend of course doesnt want to confront the issue as it is.. he rather just ignore it and hope that it goes away ...

I have already contacted a couple behaviourists online, (they all live at least 4 hours away from me.. But the one lady that lives in town says that she is pretty sure its genetics.. And there is nothing she can really do to help Daisy.

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Meanwhile I'd let her be in a safe, separated area when there are young children around instead of making her be in the room with them and putting her in a 'fight or flight' situation.

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I totally aggree, but I dont think letting her hide all day everyday by her self is helping the situation either.

How long have you had Daisy? it's VERY important you socialize her now with kids and people of all ages and let her know it's okay to be around them.. take her anywhere you can and let her get to know people better, you cannot let any dog get into the fearful stage and resulting with biting. where did Daisy orginally come from? and it is NOT good if your boyfriend to ignore the problem, you guys need to do something about it now so Daisy can be around people including kids because you have a kid right?

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Originally Posted by luvofallhorses

How long have you had Daisy? it's VERY important you socialize her now with kids and people of all ages and let her know it's okay to be around them.. take her anywhere you can and let her get to know people better, you cannot let any dog get into the fearful stage and resulting with biting. where did Daisy orginally come from? and it is NOT good if your boyfriend to ignore the problem, you guys need to do something about it now so Daisy can be around people including kids because you have a kid right?

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Well, I have only known Daisy for a bit under two years. However, My Boyfriend has had Daisy since she was about 4 or 5 weeks old.. I can be pretty sure that Daisy came from a BYB.. The guy who had Daisy just drove half way and met up with my boyfriends, friend... She was apparently always really strange, HATES to be put on her back, HATES her belly being touched.. And Shys away from anyone *even me and my boyfriend * when we go to pet her.. I have tried despretely to get her used to people.. She even lives with alot of people and is pretty much forced to interact with new people everyday..Right now we live at my parents house and my brothers are both teens, they have new people coming in and out all the time.. She cannot be trusted around children, she has charged toddler in the past.. So how do I socialise her to a child? when I dont want to risk her attacking them?? its a really complicated situation...

I know it's not going to be the popular opinion, but it sounds like you need to re-home. I would place her in a Pittie specific rescue who will know her breed characteristics and special needs. Too bad you're not closer, because BADRAP would be the perfect people to take her in. Maybe you can e-mail some BADRAP (badrap.org, I think) people and see what they can do for you?

When kids are in the picture, safety first *always*! Doesn't sound like the humans or the pups are happy, so I would try as hard as you can to convince your boyfriend that re-homing Daisy is the kindest thing you can do for everybody.

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Originally Posted by tikeyas_mom

Well, I have only known Daisy for a bit under two years. However, My Boyfriend has had Daisy since she was about 4 or 5 weeks old.. I can be pretty sure that Daisy came from a BYB.. The guy who had Daisy just drove half way and met up with my boyfriends, friend... She was apparently always really strange, HATES to be put on her back, HATES her belly being touched.. And Shys away from anyone *even me and my boyfriend * when we go to pet her..

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This answers my question on her. How long was she raised with her mom and siblings and around kids. While she was taken away too young, this alone may not be a cause. It is also difficult to assume that children at the breeder's home may have put the living fear of kids into her. At the size she would have been when your bf got her, everyone was big, even little kids. It's the size, the scent and movement of kids that seem to be especially triggering her.

I agree with the behaviorist(s') opinions, that she really is unstable and it is just a matter of time, she's probably just waiting for a place to happen.

Did any of them recommend a thyroid or other endocrine test? I would probably do that and then Rx supplement her to see if her behavior improves.

While it may not be a popular opinion, unstable, unconfident dogs that too seem to be triggered by kids should be put down, not rehomed. How would I feel if through other channels I learned that another child actually became the target after I passed the buck?

PTS, she will no longer be anxious. Her breed type is in enough trouble as it is due to the practices of inexperienced owners and breeders and perhaps other poorly bred dogs. I know many breeds are unfairly targeted because of the problems originating from such problem sources.

Hard decisions. This is so terribly sad and heartbreaking.

It is very hard for vets & techs who do not know the dog and its treatment history, to just put a dog down on a 'say so', even if the owner has thought on it long and hard. I would have her vet checked, thyroid tested anyway and explain to the vet what is going on. That will then bring the vet into the circle to help you make the best decision. Getting the vet involved with her history first, then the vet can help make that decision and support you.

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Originally Posted by Giselle

I know it's not going to be the popular opinion, but it sounds like you need to re-home. I would place her in a Pittie specific rescue who will know her breed characteristics and special needs.

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I wouldn't disagree with that actually, if there were people available who could work with her or get her into a guaranteed safe situation. I'm not there to observe the behavior so I can't just say right off the bat if it seems she is able to be 'rehabbed' or not. It confuses me that the behaviorist would say that without ever laying eyes on her in person, based only on the wording of an email.

I had a behaviorist come and visit with Tasha when she was about 7 months old because she was developing a fear and mistrust of people, particularly men and children. I think they tend to be more forward, more direct eye contact, and kids don't often understand the concept of giving personal space to a dog that is not used to them. For some dogs this is no problem, for others if they have no where to run it's a recipe for disaster.

Tasha is ok as long as she can keep her distance or run if she needs to. On a leash she behaves more aggressively towards them (hackles up, growling), and while she's never bitten I walk her with a muzzle on now when I'm on neighborhood streets just for my own peace of mind in case some kid suddenly runs up out of no where, causing her to feel she needs to defend herself. Even just a nip to the ankle that bruised could put us in a lot of trouble, so I just don't risk it. I got her a lightweight basket muzzle that doesn't seem to bother her much.

I know you don't want her to hide all the time, but if she is not going to be removed from the situation I think it's a safer alternative than forcing her into a situation where she feels her flight option is gone, and the only one left is 'fight.'

I truly wish you the best. There are no easy answers or decisions here.

I cannot believe you would put this dog in that situation EVER, not to mention the child.

If you choose to keep this dog, get a nice comfortable crate for her, and confine her when people visit who might make her uncomforable.

To do otherwise is asking for trouble.

Rehome yourself...does this man not CARE about his own kids? :eek:

I think HE and Daisy should go and get her a 'temperament assessment'. That way he hears it right from the person themselves.

And since training involves training the owner as well - that sounds like the best idea. Particularly if the alternative is rehoming her - which will have to be made very clear to him.

You can mention it to him gently, that with the baby coming, some training might be a really good idea to help prepare Daisy.

Good luck...

Well Shaun really loves Daisy.. And she loves him more then any other person.. He gives her alot special treatment, Compared to what Ebony and Tikeya get.. I think he favors her, because shes the youngest, and so affraid.. He babys her.. I dont think that helps her problem at all.. I know it will eventually come down to rehoming her.. He will never put her down tho. I know that for a fact.. I will contact a pitty rescue and tell them my situationg, and see what they say.. Thanks for all the replys.. :(

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I cannot believe you would put this dog in that situation EVER, not to mention the child.

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I didnt put anyone in this situation.. I met my boyfriend and he came with the two dogs.. I love them like my own.. But Now that I have a baby, Its becoming more and more obvious that he is my first priority.

I would also agree that it's very odd for a behaviorist to tell you straight off the bat what your dog is and isn't. I had an experience with one such behaviorist who told me through e-mail (without ever seeing my dog) that Ivy was, without a doubt, dog-aggressive. Yeah, okay, lady. That's why we can go to the dog park weekly and have never had a problem. :rolleyes: My point is, not all behaviorists are created equal, so there just may be hope for Daisy's life itself.

Contact a reputable, experienced pittie rescue and see if they have the resources and REAL behaviorists who can deal with Daisy's issues.
http://pbrc.net/webapp/cgi-bin/orgs_...614177a42f1058

I wish you all the luck. =(

Sounds like Daisy could become a fear biter. That doesn't mean she
would make an unprovoked attack on adult or child. My Smokey is a fearful
dog & hates for someone he doesn't know to come too near to him. He likes
to make the first move with strangers large or small. I've had him since he
was 8 wks old & think he was born that way. (bad genes)

Daisy should not be put in the situation where she has to flee from
curious toddlers.

No one should be forcing her to "meet and greet" strangers if she is not ready, willing and able to do that.

And praising her when she is scared reinforces to her that there IS something to be afraid about.

BF is where you need to start, I think. You sense a problem, and based on what you have stated, with good reason. You want to do something about it, he doesn't. Obstacle #1.

How on earth can you get the dog to a behaviourist or training class with a little one in tow when being with the little one is what makes her anxious? And since she has bonded closest with BF, he really should be the one training her. That is what the classes are mostly about: training the OWNER to train and handle the dog. You can't train a dog on a one hour per week class.

Can you get him to take her to even a basic obediance class? That will develop the pack leader/ follower relationship more closely between those 2, while getting him some exposure to what is and is not proper. As she is the youngest, maybe that is a way to get him to take her?

Difficult situation, so sorry you have to figure this one out.

Yup - BF has to become the 'alpha' dog, not the enabler! And that can be done with proper training.

Whatever pittie rescues you contact, see if they can reply to you via email. That way, you will have something to print out and show BF.