What exactly did Cesar Millan do that makes some people dislike him? I'm a little confused...
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What exactly did Cesar Millan do that makes some people dislike him? I'm a little confused...
I dont know. I Love Cesar Millan! i think he is great, and does so much for the dog world! To me he is a Hero!
He is charming and personable and has set back training 25 years. His methods are outdated and hyped up with a new flash to dazzle.
I really enjoy his shows, and love him as well, but people say something about him forcing a pit bull to walk on a treadmill or something....??? :confused: Hmmph I'm confused.Quote:
Originally Posted by critter crazy
(I am particularly in love with his pit bull named Daddy :D)
Great writing...entaining to read...interested words..lol. You should write a book. I mean, honestly!!! But his methods seem pretty good to me. I've been watching his shows for the last 3 weeks. What I am really wondering is the details of his...forcing a pit bull to walk on a treadmill or something alike??Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Goodnow
His methods have been outdated for years , he is a charming and personable person, however forcing any being to face a fear in a brutal manner and then using the issue of pack mentality is not only confusing to many people with dogs it is confusing to dog themselves.
Any show can be entertaining and mildly informative, however, there is no one way to train all dogs. They are individuals and the entire concept of training should be taken as a generalization, and some methods will work with some dogs and some will not. Passing off the conception that this method works all the time with all dogs is an injustice to owner mentality and also to the sentinel beings under our care.
Mr.Goodnow, thank you and that is true.
What about this forcing a pit bull to work on a treadmill though???? Or something like that????
LOL it is Dr. and I am a Mrs. when not at work,no matter though, the pit bull issue was that if the dog was tired it was less likely to misbehave, in and of itself that is accurate. A tired pup is a happy pup, but without counseling on the breed and it's unique care and the committment required to own such an amazing and powerful animal what good did it actually do?Quote:
Originally Posted by BorderColliez
This is what I found on this site:Quote:
On May 5, 2006, a television producer for the TV series 8 Simple Rules filed a lawsuit against Millan, claiming that his labrador retriever had been seriously injured while at Millan's training facility during an exercise routine on a treadmill.[21]. National Geographic released a statement that Millan was not present at the facility at the time of the alleged incident.
http://www.answers.com/topic/cesar-millan
There are two main reasons that people don't like Cesar:
1- He uses flooding a method that most trainers abhor and believe is LOOOOONG outdated. Cesar believes that flooding will reduce a dog's anxiety to a certain fear. However, flooding is a two-way street. You either learn to ignore the fear OR you develop deeper fears. Oftentimes, it can be the latter. As the owner of a dog with severe public anxiety, flooding is not even one of my last resorts.
2- He uses punishment to "eliminate" bad behavior. However, many behaviorists and trainers debate that punishment merely suppresses the symptoms; it does not treat the cause.
Also, Cesar heavily believes in pack hierarchy and what he calls is 'dog psychology' - in other words, only give your dog what it needs to be fulfilled. He states on his website somewhere that dogs don't need love to be fulfilled and that that is a human need. That's a debatable topic in itself, but you can see already why some modern behaviorists/trainers criticize Millan's techniques.
Honestly, take everything you read and see from anybody with a grain of salt. Just because Millan can stop a dog from pulling with a collar pop and a "TSST!" doesn't mean you should go around popping your dog's collar and "TSST"-ing. :)
WELL SAID thank you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Giselle
Thank you everyone! You all have been tons of help!!
Oh, sorry :o :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Goodnow
Please don't be! My husband who is the Mr is also on this board. Just made the comment so you knw which Dr. you were talking with! :D
He goes by the otherdrgoodnow :)
Ok thanks, I was soo embaressed...lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Goodnow
I honestly don't have a problem with Cesar Milan and his training. I think he does well at what he does. I don't look to him for guidence on traing although some people might.
I think Dr,. Goodnow and Giselle have stated things very well. Cesar uses force training techniques. In other words, he adds punishment to his training. I, personally, use very little punishment in my training. My dogs work for me not out of fear, but out of a desire to please me and have fun. My training is a blast for my dogs. Just tonight, I was on the sofa watching TV, and I said something about "work." My sheltie about came out of his skin in excitement thinking we were going to go in the backyard to "work" (ie train). They live for it. They love it. Dogs trained with punishment do it to avoid punishment, not out of joy. My dogs do it for fun and love.
Cesar has pushed training back 20 years because we USED to use those methods (myself included). Those of us from those days see what Cesar is doing and know the results. Sure, they work. We used to use them. No, the end result isn't better because the dogs aren't working in joy. They're working in fear.
It is basically the old methods wrapped up and glitzed up for a new century. I'm very saddened he has gotten popular. It's made my job as a profesional trainer much more difficult!!
I think some of his methods are good, some are debateable, and alot depend on the dog. I use both positive and negative reinforcement. I don't force dogs, I teach them. And when they are taught and choose not to listen, THEN I force them. In other words, my dogs learned in a positive manner, but know that if they don't listen they are going to be in trouble. Positive training is good because the dogs learn to enjoy their training. Negative reinforcement is good because you will get a dog that listens. Neither one is wrong. I want both adog that enjoys training and a dog that listens well, so I use both. Belgians vary from one end of the scale in temperament to another, and my dogs tend to be harder tempered and very high drive. I don't screw around with positive training if I know it's not going to work.
His work is amazing, but I don't agree with him on some things. He's on this whole dominance trip thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by agilityk9trainer
for those of us that are old...i.e. me
it(the years of outdatedness) has been pushed back farther, my guys are here as a last resort before PTS happens. I have a 89% sucess rate , not bad considering all the variables. Cesar is a personable and PC correct act to follow. In the short term.
My dogs work because they love to do it, there is a difference. A dog that obeys and a dog that works are 2 very different beings. Mine will do both, I am saddened to see the ones that obey, since that is fear and will never allow them to reach their full potential. It isn't hard to break a spirit, what is difficult, is to help them find it again.
just my opinion.
Jordan I couldn't agree more. I've tried some of his methods on my dogs, some work and some don't. What works on the girls doesn't always work on Bon, what works on Bon doesn't always work with the girls. It all depends on the dog.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsoul
I personally like Cesar and think he has a gift with dogs. But of course that's just my opinion.
I read his book, found it entertaining but wasn't impressed. He seemed to be on an ego trip. then when I read what he did with the threadmill thing I was totally turned off. I think he's mostly out for power over dogs, some of his methods I find border on cruelty. I personnally don't like his methods or him.
Has anyone seen the South Park episode with Cesar Millan? By far my favourite episode. :D
See, I get that using positive methods. Both a dog that enjoys training AND listens. We wouldn't have made it to the AKC Agility Nats if my dog didn't listen! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by wolfsoul
I think most people jump the gun and go for the pinch collars, choke chains, collar pops, ear pinches, nose slaps, etc. BEFORE giving all=positive methods a chance. They will work in high drive, over the top dogs. My dogs are very dominant, VERY high drive, VERY tough. Yet, I have taught them using all positive methods. And, the result is a dog who has pure joy in his job, isn't afraid of reprisal and runs like the wind.
I do find that between one to five percent of dogs (or rather their handlers) need to go to the more adversive methods I just mentioned. I personally find it much more difficult on the trainer to be all positive. Because of this, some people can't do it. They don't have the skills necessary. It takes great understanding of the dog, great timing and an excellent ability to read dog body language to be proficient at all positive. It's must much easier to collar pop a dog for bad behavior than learn how to shape and mold good behavior.
With any dog I train, I always start all positive and add in mild adversives (a soft spoken "no" or a "eck" for example) as the individual dog requires. Starting right off the bat with a training collar or other adversive is over-kill, and again, destroys that magical bond that all positive training creates.
I, too, have used a mix of positive and force training (punishment - not to be confused with reinforcement as punishment is not reinforcement). However, I still never reached the level of bond I was searching for until I dispensed with the heavy corrections.
agh nuts....I missed that one. I'll have to catch a repeat of it someday.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsoul
I fail to see any" punishment" used in Cesar's dog interaction.His method
is as simple as it sounds & confounds some critics because it doesn't take
a lot of thought to communicate successfully with dogs.
I don't think you know what "punishment" is when refering to Operant Conditioning (ie. how dogs - and people for that matter - learn). Here's a quick lesson.Quote:
Originally Posted by lizbud
In scholarly circles, they use the term "positive punishment" to refer to added punishment (not good punishment). Punishment is anything negative. It can range from a quite, softly spoken "no" to a "tssk" (which I believe Cesar uses in abundance) to a collar pop to a nose slap to an Alpha Roll to beating your dog with a brick. It's anything negative. People often don't realize they are using "punishment" because they don't consider what they are doing to be very harsh at all, but if it's designed to point out a bad behavior or correct a bad behavior, chances are it's a punishment. Some of the punishments I've heard Cesar uses are collar pops, verbal punishments, "flooding" (which I consider a punishment) and sticking his finger down a dog's throat. None of these are necessary to train a dog to listen and obey.
In Operant Conditioning, dogs learn by rewards and punishment, just like people. For instance, if a dog gets into the trash can, they get rewarded with great smells and possibly some tasty rotting food. Instant reward. The dog WILL repeat this behavior. He has learned that trash can = good smells = repeated behavior. However, if you make the trash can scary by placing a Snappy Trainer in it (a "Positive Punishment" here also called a remoter punisher), then the dog goes to the trash can. The Snappy Trainer goes off. Now, trash can = scary snappy things = stay away from trash can.
Yes, positive punishment works. However, what's more powerful is the positive approach (minus the punishment). By using rewards and play and fun, dogs don't work out of fear. They work out of joy. Those of you who have never trained all positive are really missing the boat. Believe me. The benefits are so strong in the bond you get with a dog trained using positive reinforcement. It's heads and tails abouve the other methods, which again, I have used. They are old school and outdated.
This evening on the CBS Evening News, they had a piece on the AKC Agility National Championships. The reporter (Steve Hartman, I believe) commented that after every run he saw, regardless of how many mistakes were made on course, the handlers came out praising and loving on their dogs. Why? How could this work? Remember, these are the cream of the crop of agility handlers and dogs nationwide. So, why do these successful handlers praise their dogs even when there were mistakes on the course? Shouldn't they be adding punishment, like Cesar would?
The answer is simple. If punosihing worked, you'd see handlers doing it. But it doesn't work. The dogs have to love what they're doing to do agility at that high of a level. They have to have tremendous speed and joy. If the handlers were punishing their dogs for mistakes on the course, what would the dogs eventually do? Why, run slower or shut down completely! The speed - the incredible joy - would be gone. There would be no top agility dogs in that nation...only slowly running dogs who were afraid to mess up because of reprisal. We don't want that. We want enthusiastic dogs who can't wait to get on the course and run like maniacs! We get what we want out of our dogs by rewarding the good behavior and ignoring the bad. Soon, the dog is only giving us good behaviors on the course, AND we still have maniac speed dogs out there.
Agiity is changing how we look at dog training. We are seeing a whole other world. Dogs can be trained - and extremely and highly trained (yes, the listen AND love it) - without much punishment at all. They can learn to love work - to live for it - to experience pure joy when working - and yet work perfectly and accurately with their handler.
It's a whole other way of thinking. Cesar is still back in the old days of punish to get results. We've moved so far beyond this. Yes, a little "positive punishment" is still acceptable. I certainly use the word "no" on occasion (although never with a green dog on the agility field). However, the old methods of collar pops, training collars, etc. are just that. Old methods. Very few dogs need this if trained properly in positive methods.
The positive way is a very powerful tool and still far too few people are aware of the power within their reach if they would but change their old school mindsets when it comes to training. Believe me. I used to be one.
You may be great at what you do, but you are NOT training dogs who would be labeled killers, dogs who have attacked people and other dogs.....an agility dog is something else entirely. You are comparing apples to oranges, not apples to apples. What Cesar does is completely different than what you are describing and for the dogs he is working with, and the people he is working with, it works! It's not the same thing at all as to what you describe so no matter what YOU do as a trainer with agility dogs, means nothing to the dogs he deals with. He doesn't hurt them, he puts them in their place in the pack order. I don't agree with everything he does, but what he does has a place and is needed. He deals with dogs with people problems, and people with dog problems, and helps them learn to coexist for the betterment of both. I don't see that as wrong.
He doesn't claim to be a "trainer", he helps people and their dogs learn how to communicate on a level both can understand so there is harmony in the home for both. He doesn't try to train agility dogs, or personal protection dogs, or dogs for the blind, he tries to fix problems that already EXIST between people and their dogs.
His pack of dogs do not act like they fear him one bit. They are happy to see him and are happy to do as he asks. They don't have the tail/head down posturing of fearful dogs. They do not run from him or cower before him. So I don't really know why you say he instills fear in them.
You are right, Vela. He's always saying "I train people and rehabilitate dogs" I think he's amazing and haven't seen any abuse at all.
I personally love his show, and I think he is great with the dogs.
I have to agree with Vela here. I train for agility, but I never let the fact escape that my dogs are high drive Belgians. They are dangerous dogs, simple as that. When Visa went to her first seminar (shortly after I got her) the host said she needed to be taken out of agility RIGHT away -- She was too dangerous. This was after two years of only positive training. I got her, saw a dog that wasn't eager to please, was not particularily motived, self-rewarded herself by not listening, and plain just didn't enjoy her training. She had very uncontrollable drive and a mild working sharpness which did make her a potential danger. I used alot of negatives, and it worked for her. Instead of not listening altogether, she stops listening only when she becomes bored of it, and then the training ends. She is now a controlled dog -- My service dog at that -- I got rid of the working sharpness and she is now reliable. And now that she knows what to do, she enjoys her training. But I will never be able to resort to ONLY positive -- every time I try, she starts to take advantage of me. She is a smart dog and she knows what she wants.
Having malinois in fur coats (lol), I honestly couldn't care less if my dog enjoyed what it was doing in the long term -- if it is a required command, they will do it, like it or not. I live under the idea that these dogs are dangerous and it is my job to control them. I am glad my dogs understand that there are consequences to their actions. I honestly can't think of any "positive" ways to control sharpness in a working dog.
My co-breeder is the same -- both positive and negative. She grew up with the Kohler method of training. Her dogs didn't have fun all the time, but they listened 100%. When she was a teenager she went to a positive training class. Her dog enjoyed it, but at the end of 8 weeks it jumped up and stole a chocolate bar from her hand. It would NEVER have even thought of doing that before the class. She liked the reliability of the harsher training and the dog's eagerness towards positive training. So she developed both a postitive and negative attitude.
What I will say is this I have never needed to use a prong or a choke in over 15 years with "dangerous dogs" Rotts or Dobes or my daughters pitties. They respond so much differently than my early dogs did. I would never go back to that type of training. My dogs do what is asked of them at every opportunity because they want to, and honestly they make less errors then when I did use "corrective" techniques.
I am not basing it on Belgians -- I am basing it on Belgians with working sharpness. Belgians with working sharpness ARE put to sleep daily. If my dog ever shows any tendency to bite, I don't care if I have to use negative tactics to remove it. My dog was sharp her first two years I did not have her when she was only postitvely trained. An agility trainer told my cobreeder to put her down. Anyone here who has met Visa can attest to her very nice temperament. She is still drivey but she is no longer sharp. She is controlled. Solo I nipped right in the bud. And yes, I used negative training. But when it comes to biting, I really don't care.Quote:
You are seeing him deal with VERY problematic dogs, dogs on the verge of being put down often, because of their behavior problems, not based on any one breed, but on the dog's behavior. Breed has nothing to do with it, there are problems in all breeds of dogs with all types of people. He is not working with the "average dog" of whatever breed.
How sad. I want my dogs to enjoy life, enjoy working and enjoy me. Yes, they do things they don't want to because I ask it. But they do it out of respect for me, not fear of me. There is a big difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsoul
Dr. Goodnow, I agree completely. My dogs make much fewer errors, too.
Also, I know several very aggressive agility dogs who are doing great having been rehabilitated using the all-positive methods. Must work, or they wouldn't be able to be off lead in such a stimulating atmosphere.
I've tasted force training. I've tasted force training mixed with positive training. I've tasted positive training. I won't go back.
Vela, the biggest problem with Cesar is just what you mentioned. He's working with aggressive dogs, and yet televises his methods. Then, Joe sitting at home thinks, "Hmmm. I'll collar pop my dog, too!" I've had person after person come up to me and say they were doing something Cesar did to their housepets with minor behavioral problems that could be easily fixed without going to such extreme measures. Frankly, he has no business having a national audience showing those methods to people who don't understand when the extremely rare case might be when they are acceptable to use.
I like that he doesn't claim to be a trainer, and yet uses the very same methods trainers used 20 eyars ago. I find that rather humerous!
As for instilling fear, I'm afraid you don't understand what I've been saying. I can tell by others' posts that they don't understand either. Dogs obey out of fear. They don't necessairly show the fear. But, they don't obey out of excitement, love and the pure joy. And, they don't obey out of respect...just fear of reprisal. Again, big difference.
I find it interesting that no one here who has ever trained a dog using mostly positive methods is coming on saying, "Oh, but Cesar IS right!" All of us who HAVE been there, done that are telling you guys who have never used both methods that the mostly positive route IS the best route. I strongly doubt Cesar has ever trained a dog using all positive methods either.
Unfortunately for the dogs in America, many people are again turning back to those old ways, thanks to Cesar, and the dogs are suffering because of it. :(
Sorry I meant to quote Dr. Goodnow, before I replied, then I ended up deleting it anyway LOL. I was referring to what she had said, not you. I agree with what you've said so far. There is sometimes a need for both positive and negative. Negative reinforcement does not mean beating a dog, but there are times when negative reinforcement is necessary for both the good of the dog and the good of the people involved, especially with high prey or drive dogs where danger IS an issue. I don't hit my dogs, but I've told them no, I've scolded them, and they darn well know when they do wrong, but I also love them more than life itself and constantly praise them and love them up. I know you feel the same about yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsoul
I really don't see what the big issue is with Cesar, I think he does a lot of good and not every training method suits every dog or situation and I woudl MUCH rather his training methods used on some of those dogs I have seen than to see them put down.
I also want my dog to do this -- but she never did when taught with only positive training. While they generally used both positive and negative, she was a messed up dog and they used only positive. Eventually they became frustrated and stopped training her because she wasn't having fun. She does enjoy her training now. There is no reason a dog trained either way can not enjoy their training. It all depends on the dog. Frankly I would rather my dog NOT enjoy training, than to skip out on using negative training for a legitimate reason because there is a slight chance, when nothing else has worked, that it could work.Quote:
Originally Posted by agilityk9trainer
I HAVE done both, I have been there and done that. I DO use mostly positive. But when it comes to matters such sharpness, I refuse. Just personal preference. I don't think many people here have dealt with it before and frankly I hope they never have to. It is tough to get rid of once it's there and I imagine impossible if you don't want to correct your dog.
Ah thanks for clearing that up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vela
I completely agree!
I suspect the people who had your dog before were not using the positive methods correctly. This is unfortunately common as people mix and match methods (thanks to folks like Cesar!). Also, I didn't say I NEVER correct my dog. I just said I am mostly positive.Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsoul
Let me give you an example of the corrections I use. This may help you guys understand things a bit better.
I always start out all positive and add corrections as necessary (I've already stated that, but apparently most of you didn't read my post). Anyway, the corrections I add never cause "baggage." Baggage is when you use a correction that is so adversive, it causes an unwanted and often unexpected behavior in your dog. For example, let's say I want to teach my dog to be quiet. I could grab his muzzle and squeeze firmly every time he barked and yell 'NO!" Would it work? Yes, it would. But, I'd get baggage. The baggage I'd get is a dog who tucks his head whenever I reach to pet it. You see this all the time.
Lets say my dog is chewing. I could go over to him every time, grab his collar, shake it and yell "NO!" Would he quit chewing. Yes, he probably would. But, there would be baggage. Evertime I went to get his collar for control, he would dive away from me.
Collar pops can produce baggage, too, and I've seen it in dog after dog. They shut down and quit working. I've had to rehabilitate these dogs quite often. It's very sad to see them loose their love of working just for a silly collar pop that wasn't necessary to begin with!
I do use correctiions (punishments) but I use them sparingly and I don't use ones that are so adversive as to cause baggage. When training some things, I use no corrections, even mild ones, including even the word "no." The harshest my corrections get is a squirt bottle, and I drop that when the pups are between six and nine months old. Then, I use verbal corrections only. Just a mild "no" is all that is needed.
As for training true working dogs, well, shoot, I'm a professional agility trainer!! Ninety percent of my students' dogs ARE true working dogs! They come from working lines and were bought because of their drive, their intelligence and their dominance! That's what I DO for a living!!
I don't do those things either --- the occasional collar pop when pulling becomes ridiculous but otherwise. I prefer quick verbal corrections. Gets their attention, makes them go back to what they were doing before the behaviour. If the behaviour is aggressive or dangerous I am much less lenient.
Never said you don't train working dogs -- Just said I don't think many of you deal with working sharpness, which is seen more prominently in schutzhund dogs. Not many of the agility trainers I went to understood it or knew how to deal with it. I've seen it alot. I tried to help people deal with it before I fully understood it, and wound up being tore open and bruised and on the ground every time. It's a bit different than just teaching a dog to sit. It's teaching a dog to control it's drive and frustration, two things which come very naturally to the dog, and teaching the dog that no matter what the circumstances are, biting is not okay and consequences come of it.
Isn't this a contradiction?Quote:
Originally Posted by agilityk9trainer
And as for the pop collar, I've done this with all my dogs and you know what? They all get excited when they are getting them put on. Not one of them have "baggage":)
Ahhh.... what's a contradiction? And, I didn't say all dogs develop baggage with collar pops, but some do.