White Shepherds

Ever since the White Shepherd topic came up in teh White Boxer thread I thought about making a seperate thread for teh White Shepherd. Where people can ask questions and discuss this beautiful breed.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...BC366D64E4.jpg

So here is some info that I have taken from my White Shepherd History page of my website: http://giftofgracekennels.com/id18.html

The color white is one of the original colors of the German Shepherd Dog (GSD). Max Von Stephanitz, the person who created the GSD breed, owned several white German Shepherds. Hektor, the first registered German Shepherd Dog grandsire, Greif, was white. Ann Tracy's Stoneihurst Edmond, who was whelped in March 27, 1917, was the first registered white German Shepherd Dog who was born and bred in the United States.

The white color became a disqualification in the GSD Standard by the German Shepherd Dog Club of America over 40 years ago. Before that time the white German Shepherd Dog also competed in conformation events along side its colored counterparts.

The White Shepherd can still be registered with the AKC as German Shepherd Dogs but because of the color disqualification, they can not be shown in the AKC conformation ring. Which is one of hte main reasons White Shepherd fanciers wish for breed seperation. So that we can enjoy the same rights that the colored German Shepherd Dog fanciers enjoy.

There are many falsehoods that still exist today about the genetics of the white gene in the White Shepherd. Some like to say it is an albino trait or that it causes deafness or blindness. Other say it is the cause of fading or health problems. All this has been proven to be untrue. Many of the falsehoods about the White Shepherd happened before modern genetics research. Even though these rumors have been proven to be false, the rumors have been hard to correct.

The falsehoods about the White Shepherds and the gene that causes their coat color are many. First White Shepherds are NOT albinos. Albinos have no pigment and usually pink eyes. The White Shepherds have brown eyes and black pigment on their noses, mouth, paw pads, eye rims,sometimes a black dusting in their ears and sometimes have darker skin and nails.

Color paling was another rumor that has since been proven false. The white gene is a masking gene, not a dilute gene (such as liver and blue). A masking gene hides the real color and pattern of the dog. A White Shepherd can be any color found in the German Shepherd Dog like black, black and tan, black and red, black and silver, black and cream, blue, liver, sable, saddled and bi-colored. The only time dilution could occur is when a White Shepherd is masking a diluted color like blue or liver. The white gene is a recessive gene. The only thing the gene expresses is coat color. It does not cause poor health, temperament or any other.

In the 1960's, the white color became a disqualifying fault in the German Shepherd Dog standard determined by the German Shepherd Dog Club of America. Before this happened, the white German Shepherd Dog was able to compete with its "colored" counterparts in the AKC conformation ring. The White Shepherd can still be registered as a German Shepherd Dog by the AKC and can still participate in AKC performance events.

For over 30 years, white German Shepherd Dog fanciers worked to change the German Shepherd Dog standard to allow them to once again show in the AKC conformation ring. This has not worked. And shows very little chance of actually coming about. Hence the reason for breed seperation.

In the UKC the White Shepherd can compete as a German Shepherd Dog or a White Shepherd. The White Shepherd has also succeeded in becoming a seperate breed with the FCI as well.

White Shepherds can perform in and excel at AKC performance events like obedience, tracking, agility, flyball and herding trials. White Shepherds can be police dogs, bomb detection dogs, drug sniffing dogs, and Search and Rescue dogs just to list a few. They are also great family pets, service dogs, farm dogs, therapy dogs, and they have also apeared in many movies and tv shows. The ablities of these dogs have no end.


So lets get this discussion rolling.
Nicole

Great thread Nicole.
I was lucky enuff to be asked to Judge the WS nationals.And I saw some great looking White Shepherds there.
Here is the AWSA standard
White Shepherd Breed Standard
AWSA Membership Approved October 12, 2002
PREAMBLE
The White Shepherd is a direct descendent of the German Shepherd Dog and the two breeds share common roots and are similar in appearance. However, the White Shepherd evolved from a continuous selection for a working companion dog with that exclusive color, beauty and elegance as seen both standing and in motion. His high degree of intelligence and sense of loyalty have allowed him to become one of the most versatile working dogs serving mankind.
GENERAL APPEARANCE
The White Shepherd is a well developed and balanced animal with the look of intelligence, energy and purpose in life. It should have a regal appearance with secondary sex characteristics being distinctive. The dog should be somewhat longer than tall, with smooth curves rather than sharp angles. Extremes of anything distort type and are to be strongly discouraged. This is a herding dog that must have the agility, freedom of movement and endurance to do the work required of it. When gaiting, the dog should move smoothly, with all parts working in harmony. Overall balance, strength, and firmness of movement is to be given more emphasis than a sidegait showing a flying trot. Staying true to type is defined by the following word picture and this diagram.

SIZE, PROPORTION, SUBSTANCE
Body Proportion -- The dog is somewhat longer than tall -- the ideal ratio of length to height being 10 to 8.8. E.g., 28.4 inches (72.1 cm) long to 25 inches (63.5 cm) high. Body length is measured from the prosternum to the point of the buttocks. Height is measured from the highest point of the shoulder blade to the ground. Ideal height and weight is 25 inches (63.5 cm) and roughly 75-85 pounds (34-39 kgms) for males, and 23 inches (58.4 cm) and about 60-70 pounds (27-32 kgms) for bitches. Acceptable range of height is about 1 inch (3 cm) in either direction of the ideal. Any dog that is so over or undersize as to be outside of the acceptable range is highly objectionable and should be faulted.
HEAD
Proportionate in size to the body. Males should show masculinity without coarseness; bitches should show femininity without being over-refined. Both sexes should exhibit a look of intelligence and nobility. Skull -- Viewed from the top, the skull is wedge-shaped, clean cut and strong. When viewed from the side, the topline of the skull should parallel that of the top of the muzzle and there should be a moderate stop. There should be no tendency toward an overly long, narrow or Collie-like head. Insufficient stop or a round or domed skull is faulty. Muzzle -- The muzzle is strong and dry and the lips fit tightly over the well-developed jaws. The nose should be black. Viewed from above, the muzzle appears wider at the stop than at the tip and there should be no tendency toward cheekiness. A snipy muzzle or a receding lower jaw is faulty. Eyes -- Brown, dark for preference. The eye rims should be black. The expression is keen and intelligent, yet composed. The eyes are medium sized, almond shaped, and set a little obliquely. Round or protruding eyes are faulty. Blue or pink eyes disqualify a dog. Ears - Size in proportion to the rest of the head. The ears are moderately pointed and open toward the front. They are carried erect when at attention. The ideal carriage is one at which the center lines of the ears, from the front, are parallel and perpendicular both to each other and to the ground. Soft ears spoil the desired noble and alert expression and are faulty. Cropped or hanging ears are a disqualifying fault. Teeth -- 20 upper and 22 lower; a full mouth is preferred. Dogs missing more than one premolar should be faulted. Broken teeth are not considered a fault. The teeth meet in a close scissors bite. A level bite is faulty. An overshot bite is a severe fault. A dog exhibiting an undershot mouth must be disqualified.
NECK, TOPLINE, BODY
Neck -- Length is proportionate to the size of the head. The neck is strong, muscular and dry. Except when at attention or excited, the typical carriage of the head is forward rather than up, particularly in motion. A ewe neck or one that is too short or throaty is faulty. Topline -- The withers should be higher than and slightly sloping into the back. There should be no evidence of a dip behind the wither, nor should the topline itself sag or roach from the wither to the croup. Body -- Solid without bulkiness. The White Shepherd should be shown in lean, hard physical condition. Chest -- The forechest is well filled and the prosternum is prominent. The chest is deep with the brisket reaching to the elbows. A shelly chest is objectionable. Depth of chest should be approximately 48 to 50 percent of the total height of the dog. Ribs -- The ribs are long, well sprung, and are carried well back. The shape of the chest is important. It must never be so wide or round as to interfere with the action of the elbows and the forelegs. Neither must it be so flat as to cause the elbows to pinch in. Underline -- Only moderately tucked up in the flank -- never like that of a Greyhound. The abdomen is firmly held and never paunchy. Back -- The back is short, straight and strongly developed. Loin -- Viewed from the top, broad and strong. From the side, the loin is relatively short and blends smoothly into the back. Croup -- Long and gradually sloping, flowing smoothly into a low set tail. In the ideal dog, the croup slopes gently away at an approximate angle of 23° from the horizontal. Too level or flat a croup prevents proper functioning of the hindquarter, which must be able to reach well under the body. A steep croup also limits the action of the hindquarter. Tail -- Bushy, with the last vertebrae extended at least to the hock joint and usually below. At rest, it hangs straight down or in a slight saber-like curve. Even in excitement, the dog should never lift its tail higher than right angles to the backline. The tail is important. The dog uses its tail like a rudder enabling it to keep its balance while being able to turn instantly. In motion, the ideal carriage of the tail is at or slightly below the natural extension of the topline. It is permissible for a dog to carry its tail a bit higher, although the tendency toward a gay tail spoils the overall outline of the dog. A dog with a too short tail or a docked tail must be disqualified.
FOREQUARTERS
Shoulders -- The shoulder blade, or scapula, should be long and well laid back, the ideal angle being about 35° from the vertical. Shoulder layback is estimated by taking a line from the uppermost tip of the scapula to the point of the shoulder (where the scapula meets the humerus) to the ground. Lay-on is flat against the body, with the upper ends fairly close together, forming the point of the wither. Shoulder and upper arm are well muscled but never loaded. The upper arm (humerus) is almost equal in length to the scapula. In the ideal dog, a 102° angle is formed by imaginary lines connecting the point of the elbow with the forward-most point of the shoulder joint and with the highest point of the scapula. This angulation permits the proper maximum forward extension of the foreleg in the working shepherd dog. Faults in the shoulder assembly include: loose or loaded shoulders (bulging muscle pads), a pushed forward shoulder assembly, not enough length in the humerus and a scapula that is too short or steeply set. Forelegs -- The forelegs are straight and parallel with each other. Lower leg bones are oval in shape. Bone substantial but not excessive. Elbows are well held in with no tendency to turn in or out. The point of the elbow lies roughly in a vertical line under the point of wither. Pasterns -- Strong and springy with the ideal angle being about 25° from the vertical.
FEET
Short and compact, toes held closely together and well arched. Pads are thick and tough affording the dog protection over rough terrain. Dewclaws appearing on the rear legs should be removed, those on the front legs may be removed but are usually left on. Nails should be short. Faults in running gear include: terrier-like feet, hare feet, thin pads or splayed feet.
HINDQUARTERS
The whole of the rear assembly somewhat mirrors that of the front. In length and angulation, the scapula and the pelvis roughly equal each other, and the slant of the lower thigh bones roughly approximate that of the pelvis and of the humerus. The pelvis lies tilted backward at an approximate angle of 35° from the horizontal. Whether standing four-square or firmly and naturally with one rear leg extended behind the pelvis, the femur drops almost vertically from the hip socket, forming an approximate 125° angle with the pelvis. The upper and lower thigh bones are all roughly the same length. The thighs themselves, both upper and lower, are broad and heavily muscled. The stifle is well bent; its angulation must never be so steep that the dog’s hocks lie directly under any part of the croup or pelvis. In a correctly angulated dog that is standing in a natural three-point stance (show pose), an imaginary line dropped plumb from the point of the buttocks would land roughly 2 inches (5 cm) in front of the dog’s extended hind foot. Stifles that are too straight or overly long are faulty. The hock joints are strong and the hocks themselves, relative to the rest of the rear assembly, are short, clean and perpendicular to the ground. Whether in motion or at rest, there is no tendency for the hocks to turn in or out. From the rear, the hindlegs drop straight and parallel to each other and the feet point straight ahead.
MOVEMENT
Soundness is of paramount importance. Capability of quick and sudden movement is essential. The action is free, supple and tireless with the dog covering the most amount of ground with the minimum number of steps, all of the parts working together in harmony. From the side, the hindquarters drive forward with the hindfoot reaching far under the body to take firm hold of the ground. The powerful backward thrust is transmitted through a firm back to the front end, where the shoulder opens to the fullest extent possible and the foot reaches out toward the nose. The entire motion lifts the dog’s body slightly and carries it forward. The feet track close to the ground on both forward reach and backward push. At full trot, the back must remain firm, level, and free of roll, whip, or roach. At the extended trot, the dog may appear to overreach, with the hind foot passing to either side of the front foot. This is not faulty unless it causes the dog to move in a crab-like fashion. From both front or rear, the action is that of a single track. From the front, the legs move inward toward a center line under the body in a straight column of support from the point of shoulder to the pad. From the rear, the legs track inward toward a center line in a straight column of support from the hip to the pad. Moving close is faulty. Sidegait, coming and going are equally important and movement front and rear are not to be overlooked in favor of sidegait. Incorrect structure will be revealed in the moving animal. Flaws in gait such as weaving or interfering, paddling, flipping the front paws, weakness at the elbows, stiltiness, moving cow or bow-hocked or in a hackney fashion are highly objectionable and must be regarded as serious faults.
COAT
The White Shepherd has a weather-resistant double coat. The outer coat is medium length, dense, straight, harsh and close lying. The undercoat is short, thick and fine in texture. The head and ears are covered with a smooth, somewhat softer hair while the hair covering the legs and paws is more harsh-textured. At the neck, the coat is slightly longer and heavier. A male may carry a thicker ruff than a female. The back of the legs has a slightly longer covering of hair and there is considerably more hair on the breeches and the underside of the tail. Both a short coat and a long coat are equally acceptable. An open coat is faulty.
COLOR
The coat color is white as defined by the breed’s name and the ideal is pure white. Other coat markings that range from a very pale cream to a light biscuit tan are acceptable, but not preferred. It is important to note that when judging the White Shepherd, temperament, overall quality and movement are to be considered more important than coat color alone. Pigment -- Skin color is pink to gray with gray being preferred. The nose, lips and eye rims should be fully pigmented and black in color. A snow nose is acceptable but is not preferred. Deficiency of pigment is objectionable and dogs exhibiting faded or spotty pigmentation on nose, eye rims or lips should be faulted. Dogs exhibiting the total lack of pigment in the above named areas indicating possible albinism or those that definitely exhibit albinism (such as dogs with blue or pink eyes) must be disqualified.
TEMPERAMENT
The White Shepherd has a distinct personality marked by a direct, but not hostile expression of self-confidence. It is poised but when the situation demands, it should be eager and alert, ready to serve in any capacity such as companion, watch dog or service dog. To his inherent aptitude as a guardian of flocks should be an added protectiveness of the person and property of his family. With those he knows well, he should be open and friendly. With strangers, he should be observant and may be somewhat aloof but never apprehensive. Timidity, shrinking behind the handler, lack of confidence or any other display of poor character or aggression are severe faults. Dogs displaying such pronounced character flaws should be excused from the ring. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be disqualified.
FAULTS
Any deviation from these listed specifications is a fault. In determining whether a fault is minor, serious or major, these two factors should be used as a guide:
1. The extent to which it deviates from breed type.
2. The extent to which such deviation would actually affect the working ability of the dog.
DISQUALIFICATIONS
• Blue or pink eyes
• Cropped or hanging ears
• Undershot bite
• Tails that are too short or docked
• Total lack of pigment on the nose, eye rims or lips or dogs that exhibit definite signs of albinism
• Monorchids or cryptorchids
• Any dog that has been surgically or cosmetically altered
• Any dog that attempts to bite the judge

Thanks rutylr. I wish I could have been there. Next year we are hoping to atend a few shows in teh summer. By then I will have Sheena and hopefully one of her pups to compete with.
Nicole

Sheena should do well,and if you keep a puppy that ends up looking like her you should kick some WS butt.

:D lol We hope too. lol. We are hoping to keep a female. That is if she ever gets bred. :rolleyes: This little lady of mine is really making us wait. Every cycle she had except for one she came into heat right on teh exact day. 4 months and 15 days. Last heat she had she was a day late. Well this is the heat we planned to breed her. So guess what. She is really making us wait. She was due to come into heat on teh 27th of October. We are still waiting. lol. Of all teh times to chose to make mom wait. Of cours eit had to be when we want to breed her. Ahh well. It will happen. Just got to be patient.
Nicole

Very good thread! The whites have seperate requirements .. thank you..

Did I miss something? Did someone decide that German Shepherds that are white are recognized as a breed of it's own somewhere?

Seems to me that according to the German Shepherd Club of America, all white dogs are not only undesireable but are to be immediately dismissed from the ring. This would indicate that any all white puppies born should be altered to prevent any future accidental breedings and if a bitch whelps more then one puppy with more then one stud should be altered.

Calling a white shepherd a seperate breed is kind of like me telling you that long haired rottweilers are a new breed. It is just wrong and to treat them like anything beyond the genetic throwback that they are is dishonest.

White GSD's have been around for ever,and they use to be allowed to show.Then someone got a bug up their but and decieded they did not like them and had the standard changed to diss allow them from showing.
The White Shepherd is built different from the German shepherd and they are also called White Swiss Shepherd Dog or Berger Blanc Suisse.

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Originally Posted by rutylr

White GSD's have been around for ever,and they use to be allowed to show.Then someone got a bug up their but and decieded they did not like them and had the standard changed to diss allow them from showing.
The White Shepherd is built different from the German shepherd and they are also called White Swiss Shepherd Dog or Berger Blanc Suisse.

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I must be missing something in the translation. Did some digging and came up with this:

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The Weisser Schweizer Schäferhund, or Berger Blanc Suisse, more commonly known as the White Swiss Shepherd, was often considered a mutation of the German Shepherd, until recently when it was finally considered a separate breed after years of campaigning from White Shepherd enthusiasts. Currently, this breed is only recognised by the FCI and the UKC, but more efforts are being made to give the breed worldwide recognition as a separate and distinct breed from the

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I can't get over how gorgeous Sheena is :eek:

LilacDragon - White Shepherds have always been a part of the GSD. They were even shown along side their colored counterparts for many many years. Even one of the most famous GSD fanciers in America owned and bred whites.

This is Geraldine Dodge with her white Shepherds and her Colored Shepherds
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...3/DODGEPIC.gif

It wasn't until the 1960s where it became a fault so they could not be shown with the AKC. Until then they did show with their colored counterparts. For the CanKC they were able to compete next to their colored counterparts till 1995. No white is not a genetic flaw. No white is not the cause of genetic health problems. The White Shepherd is just that. A White GSD. It has no more or no less health problems then a standard GSD. If you read my first post it explains all this. There is no reason what so ever to cull whites(whether by altering them or killing them) that are born just because they are white.

GSD breeders who are agianst whites for the reasons you stated need to do more study on the history of their breed and also more study into the genetic research that has been done to prove that the wives tails about the whites are just that. Wives tails. Just like other breeds have seperated into others because of size(poodles) or coat types(dachsunds) the white is looking to do teh same so they can once agian take their rightful place in teh conformation ring.

Zoomer - Thank you so much
Nicole

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LilacDragon

Did I miss something? Did someone decide that German Shepherds that are white are recognized as a breed of it's own somewhere?

Seems to me that according to the German Shepherd Club of America, all white dogs are not only undesireable but are to be immediately dismissed from the ring. This would indicate that any all white puppies born should be altered to prevent any future accidental breedings and if a bitch whelps more then one puppy with more then one stud should be altered.

Calling a white shepherd a seperate breed is kind of like me telling you that long haired rottweilers are a new breed. It is just wrong and to treat them like anything beyond the genetic throwback that they are is dishonest.

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Actually not quite- the white shepherd does have its own club and considered a rare breed by AKC standards.. Like the Leonberger is etc. It is coming close to being accepted in the AKC as a seperate breed based on color. Like how we do the two Belgium varieties or Cockers as well..
Additionally- last I heard they are going to also soon to be admiting the "red and white setter" which actually is a Irish Setter in other countries, but here the Irish has to be red..
The purpose of a "breed" is to be able to established standards and reproduce that standard. That is why designer breeds arent going anywhere- each puppy is widely different, and without registration on the papers to prove they really are whatever they are, people are basically spending 10 times the money they would than if they just went to a shelter and got the same mix.

I sooo know what you mean about the designer breeds. lol
Nicole

sad isnt it.. :(

I do have a question about a foster that my friend is holding for me.

Do you think he is a White German Shepherd Mix or a Husky Mix? He's about a year old.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d7...s/DSCF3131.jpg

Sorry but I thought I'd ask you since you know the breed.

Looks like he could be.
Looks like the GSD coat and I can see markings around the eyes which could be husky.

White Shepherds are beautiful dogs. Nicole, Sheena [I believe her name is], is such a beautiful White Shepherd. I always love seeing pictures of her.

And, animal_rescue, when I first saw the picture I thought Husky. And what a beautiful dog!

Thanks so much. I agree. I see husky. But I could be wrong. It could have both.
Nicole

I think Mandy is a White Shepherd mix. Of course I don't know for sure because she is a shelter mutt, but every time I see pictures of White Shepherds or even the few that I've seen in real life, they've all reminded me of her so much. And her personality is so Shepherd-like.

I have a question - what color is a White Shepherd's skin? Mandy's is spotted so I've always thought she had Pit Bull in her (I know other breeds have spotted skin but that is a common breed you see in shelters around here). Her face/build is somewhat like a (poorly bred) Pittie's, but I see more Shepherd in her than anything else.

Sheena is gorgeous, by the way!

Thanks so much. I agree with you. Mandy looks like she has a lot of White Shepherd in her. When I saw her that was one of my first thoughts. She is beautiful. White Shepherds can have a black dusting to their skin coloring. It is not uncommon. I would need to see better pictures to take a guess as to what she is mixed with. Some of her standing like a side profile shot would be great.
Nicole

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Originally Posted by animal_rescue

I do have a question about a foster that my friend is holding for me.

Do you think he is a White German Shepherd Mix or a Husky Mix? He's about a year old.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d7...s/DSCF3131.jpg

Sorry but I thought I'd ask you since you know the breed.

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Husky mix. blue eye in a white shepherd is uncommon, and the stop in the muzzle is not a shepherd but more husky.

on a side note, i've read the book written by the man himself Max von Stephanitz back in 1925 and even then he said too much white was unacceptable and white's were not desireable. I think I'll take the word right from the horses mouth so to speak on this one as to wether or not all white shepherds were ever desireable in the breed or not.

I had a white shepherd and a white shepherd mix when I was younger. My coloured GSD had a white shepherd mother. My mix is still going on strong, living with my dad's old roomate --- just some arthritis but nothing bad. My white shepherd pup had to be PTS at 6 months due to severe panosteitis, and my GSD was PTS a couple of years ago due to cancer. Great dogs, I've always loved GSDs, no matter what colour.

From what I have read, the original reason the white shepherd was finally disallowed was due to them blending into the sheep too easily? Is this true?

Lilacdragon, there is nothing wrong with the White shepherd. While I disagree with creating "toys" and "minis" of different breeds, colour does not affect the structore or ability of a dog. It may not be recognised by AKC as a different breed (though they do have the option for white colouring on the registration papers of the German shepherd dog), they are recognised by their own registries and are able to show under those registries. UKC is nothing like the ConKC or some of the other designer registries.

It's like laekenois. They are the same breed as the other varieties, but not only does AKC seperate them into breeds, but they exclude the laekenois -- all because of coat type. Does this mean that US breeders shouldn't breed laekenois? Because they are a "genetic throwback?"

Wolfsoul - great post. To answer your question no that was not the reason, that was the excuse by some. Some said they were the cause of the diluting colors(proven later to be false by genetic testing) some said it was because tehy were the cause of all teh genetic deseases including blindness and so forth(agian proven false by genetic tests) Soem gave the excuse you just stated which is because they blend into teh sheep. Have you ever seen a herd of sheep? I am not being insultive, I am asking an honest question. I mean in person not from pics. I have. In fact hubby raised his own sheep for several years when he was younger. They are not white. Sheep vairy in color from a dirty gray to a dark brown. Because of dirt and feces and so forth. A White Shepherd like Sheena would no more blend into the flock then Luca would(our black GSD). So agian that excuse was proven false. Some also used th eexcuse that they are not stable in temperment. Well obviously that is false too. I could go on and on.

The fact of the matter is White Shepherds showed in conformation up until the 1960's with teh AKC. This is a provable fact. In the CanKC they showed in conformation until the 1995. This agian is a provable fact. If the White Shepherd was so agianst standard then why did it take so long to have them listed as a Fault? Because it isn't a fault. There is nothing wrong with a white shepherd. It was people's opinions only that got the dog listed as a fault and they had no provable reason for doing so. That is why in several other countries they have now been listed as their own breed. There are many breeds that have seperated into seperate breeds based on coat types or colors. The white shepherd is just doing the same thing.
Nicole & Sheena PSD OFA FD FDX

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Originally Posted by NicoleLJ

Have you ever seen a herd of sheep? I am not being insultive, I am asking an honest question. I mean in person not from pics. I have. In fact hubby raised his own sheep for several years when he was younger. They are not white. Sheep vairy in color from a dirty gray to a dark brown.

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I always thought the same thing --The sheep we herd aren't white -- maybe they would be if they had a bath lol. :rolleyes:

I don't have anything "useful" to add...but I think Sheena is simply enchanting, and I'm hoping we'll get to see many many puppy pictures!

OOC, since I'm pretty clueless about genetics, is it possible for her to throw colored puppies from this breeding? Sorry if that's a dumb question. :o

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Originally Posted by CathyBogart

I don't have anything "useful" to add...but I think Sheena is simply enchanting, and I'm hoping we'll get to see many many puppy pictures!

OOC, since I'm pretty clueless about genetics, is it possible for her to throw colored puppies from this breeding? Sorry if that's a dumb question. :o

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Thank you so much. And no that is not a clueless question. I didn't understand genetics for the longest time either. To answer your question Sheena will be having only white puppies. Here is an easier way to look at it:

White to White will always throw white(this is what our breeding is)

White to a dark colored GSD who has a White Shepherd in its pedigree will throw both white and dark colored GSD's

White to a dark colored GSD with no White in his pedigree will only throw dark colored GSD's.

Taht is the simplest way to explain it. I hope that helps. If you have more questions feel free to ask.
Nicole

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Originally Posted by wolfsoul

I always thought the same thing --The sheep we herd aren't white -- maybe they would be if they had a bath lol. :rolleyes:

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Could you imagine being th eone having to bath a herd of Sheep in full coat? no thank you. lol
Nicole

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Originally Posted by NicoleLJ

The fact of the matter is White Shepherds showed in conformation up until the 1960's with teh AKC. This is a provable fact. In the CanKC they showed in conformation until the 1995. This agian is a provable fact. If the White Shepherd was so agianst standard then why did it take so long to have them listed as a Fault? Because it isn't a fault. There is nothing wrong with a white shepherd.

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I guess you missed the part about it being a fault from its inception way back when by the founders. They faulted white, the rest of the world faults a white, and just because they were show within the AKC doesn't really prove anything. WHy is the AKC standard different than the SV standard (original ruling body)?? Read the book written by the man himself, white was considered a fault back in 1925 by the man that created them, why would I or should somebody else think that just because the AKC allowed them to be shown change my mind?? THe AKC hasn't done much in the way of "building" a better GSD.

I don't really care what the reasons were, but they were cut out of breeding programs in the beginning. The reason doesn't matter, but what it created then was a very very small gene pool in which to create whites later by those that chose to go against the standard and do so. And considering the US has been propagating the AKC GSD's with a very small gene pool to begin with, their selection to get white's in this country was even smaller.

Whether or not it was accepted in the beginning, it is now considered a new breed -- a breed where white is the only acceptable colour, from the beginning. I don't think that White shepherd fanciers are fighting to show the breed alongside its coloured counterparts, but rather against them under a different name. If I understand correctly, white shepherd breeders also breed for a sounder structure -- no "hockwalkers" or extreme angulations.

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Originally Posted by wolfsoul

Whether or not it was accepted in the beginning, it is now considered a new breed -- a breed where white is the only acceptable colour, from the beginning. I don't think that White shepherd fanciers are fighting to show the breed alongside its coloured counterparts, but rather against them under a different name. If I understand correctly, white shepherd breeders also breed for a sounder structure -- no "hockwalkers" or extreme angulations.

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Great post. There are some white breeders that do want to be able to show as a GSD. I persoanlly am agianst this. I think we should be our own breed but it is a personal choice. AS for breeding for a sounder structure that is correct. We prefer the old style look over teh problems of the so called newer style. I can't stand the bowed backs or hips that look like they are dragging on the ground.

As for whether the AKC or CanKC sees it as a fault or not is not hte point. The point is they have been around sine hte start of the breed. A pure white dog was the grandsire of the first GSD. So it has always had the color in it. It was accepted for years. Then for really bogus reason not allowed any more. The AKC took longer to fault them and the CKC took the longest. But either way there is no reason at all that anyone can state as to why they are a fault. No genetic reason, no structure reason, and certianly no reason based on what they were originally bred to do.

So I am glad in many parts they are already seen and acknowledged as a seperate breed. I hope the AKC and the CKC follow suit soon. As for the small gene pool it is not as small as you think since many many many breeders incorporate colored GSD's into their breeding programs. And as long as they are a part of the GSD breed and not a seperate bred they will continue to add the colored GSD's into their lines to increase the gene pool.
Nicole

am i talking to a wall. Max von stephanitz, you know the guy that started the breed said whites are a fault, should not be bred for and should not but used for breeding. horand had a 2generations away from a white and that white wasn't ever registered with the SV. Who cares what the AKC said, they've done nothing to improve this wonderful breed, the fact they let them be shown for so long shows me just how long they've actually thought about what they stand for. The bowed backs and hips dragging on the ground come from just such breeding stock, the kind the AKC promotes as "champions".

To get the all whites and produce them consistently they had to pair dogs with recessive genes every time, and its what was done. Seeing nobody in the beginning in Germany was breeding for whites CAUSE IT WAS A FAULT, ones that were born that way were often culled. Later, some fanciers took to them and started their gene pool from a very very small stock. White has never been desireable in the history of the GSD. SInce white is recessive you get people breeding white dogs with white dogs to get more white dogs. You didn't get accidental white dogs from good bloodlines.

If someone is breeding away from the working GSD population, then that person is breeding for color and not for the best working temperments. White GSD's are far removed from working GSD populations. They haven't been under the strict breeding requirements of the SV or other countries that continue breeding working GSD bloodlines. I haven't seen a "white" in any working venues for quite sometime. I wouldn't be using the AKC as my model to compare it too, those dogs are a less a GSD than a poodle IMO.

First off I take offence to teh first sentence. This is a great thread for White Shepherds not a thread where you can decided to insult me or anyone else here. Just because we don't agree with you does not make what we say wrong and does not make what you say rigth. We are each entitled to our opinions. PLease keep that in mind.

Second Whites have been working dogs their entire history. there are whites doing Schutzund even. Don't believe me I can direct you to some. Whites can and do work in Military, Police, SAR's, Herding, Therapy, Assistance, Guide, you name it the White Shepherd has and does do it. Just because you have not heard or seen it does not mean it doesn't happen.

Whites were an accept part of the breed for a while and not culled. Then when it became a fault some culled, others didn't. They did not come from a small gene pool as you wish to believe. They came form as big a Gene pool as all GSD's. Seeing as how they have been in the breed since the beginning. Just because people minds and opinions changed about it does not mean they are a bad dog or a breed that should not be bred for.

And as for you will not find white shepherds in good bloodlines of GSD's I find that too funny. Many many many times whites are bron to two colored parents where the breeders had not known that they had teh white gene. And they came form great kennels and great lines. Whites are a part of the GSD colors. That is just the way it is.

And breeding two whites is not wrong. Genetics has proven there is not health problems caused by teh white gene. All it expresses is coat colar and that is all. Nothing else. A breed that is only one color is not unheard of either. Look at Irish Setters.

I am not going around saying lets be part of the GSD breed standard. Let us back in to show. Nope. I want seperation so I can stop listening to the rumours(which have all been proven false by genetics) by people who choose not to truely learn about them. White Shepherds are a working breed. They have the extremely stable temperment to prove it, the drive to work, the love of people and the sound structure for the job.

Now that is the truth.
Nicole

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Second Whites have been working dogs their entire history. there are whites doing Schutzund even. Don't believe me I can direct you to some. Whites can and do work in Military, Police, SAR's, Herding, Therapy, Assistance, Guide, you name it the White Shepherd has and does do it. Just because you have not heard or seen it does not mean it doesn't happen.

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Show me some, give their pedigree and the venue. I open for suggestions, just haven't seen anyone in any serious working circles compete or breed to a white ever. I"ve seen some PSD's that were white, some were ok, some were not, same as any dog.

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Whites were an accept part of the breed for a while and not culled. Then when it became a fault some culled, others didn't. They did not come from a small gene pool as you wish to believe. They came form as big a Gene pool as all GSD's. Seeing as how they have been in the breed since the beginning. Just because people minds and opinions changed about it does not mean they are a bad dog or a breed that should not be bred for.

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OK, since maybe i'm wrong, you tell me when the SV allowed whites, and they were an acceptable color, then tell me when, if ever they've been a desireable color.

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And breeding two whites is not wrong.

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Never said it was, BUT when you're breeding two dogs of an unacceptable color that is bred to get away from that color, you aren't breeding the best dogs out there. It seems simple to me. As far as I can tell there haven't been whites showing up in euorpean working lines since the 30's with any sort of consistency, so for the past 70 years WHites have been bred with dogs being bred away from the working standard.

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I am not going around saying lets be part of the GSD breed standard. Let us back in to show. Nope. I want seperation so I can stop listening to the rumours(which have all been proven false by genetics) by people who choose not to truely learn about them. White Shepherds are a working breed. They have the extremely stable temperment to prove it, the drive to work, the love of people and the sound structure for the job.

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I'm all for it, I would love to see them prove themselves in work as well as all GSD's should before they are bred. I'm a little sickened that our country can't have sticter breeding standards when it comes to all dogs. I have no personal agenda against white's.

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This is a great thread for White Shepherds not a thread where you can decided to insult me or anyone else here.

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You can have your thread about White shepherds, my point is your history is innacurate, they have never been allowed and were not desired. It's not my opinion, it;s the words of the founder of the SV, the originator of the breed. Because a white was the great gransire of a foundation dog, doesn't mean much, when for the vast majority of GSD"s born or used in breeding have been used to get away from the white color, you'll have a tough time convincing me that the best dogs were used to get the white color consistently. If that were the case, you'd end up with some whites showing up sometimes, not whites showing up almost all the time by white GSD breeders, which is what you have.

Ok you wanted examples of these dogs in working venues. Well her are some links of White Shepherds who have excelled in everything from Assistance dogs to military dogs. This is only one breeders progeny and not a full list either.
http://www.hoofprint.ws/service_dogs.html

Here is another great link showing the many different working venues of Whites:
http://www.kerstoneshepherds.com/versatile.htm

And here are some facts about whites:
A White was the first German Shepherd of any color to earn both a Utility Dog (U-UD) title & a Championship with the United Kennel Club.
(WGSDCII/UKC Ch. U-UD Von Tasz' Jack of All Trades, UDX, TDI, HC, OFA H&E)

The Number One ranked German Shepherd in flyball is a White.
(WSCC/UKC Ch. U-CD Crystal's Lil Pistol Von Tasz, Am/Can CD, FDGCH, WETT, DSA, NA, NAJ, HC, CGC, OFA H&E)

The first two German Shepherds to earn the Canadian Kennel Club's Urban Tracking Dog title (UTD) were both White.
(AWSA Alt Ch. Braehead's Bailey v Eis Haus, CD, Am/Can TDX, UTD, BH, FDX, HC, TT, CGC, OFA H&E, PennHIP
& Brock of Eis Haus, Am/Can TDX, UTD, FM, CD, HCs, TT, CGC, OFA)

Need more? I can get a whole lot more. Temperament Test (conducted by Temperament Test Associates of Ontario), 80% of the White Shepherds tested attained their Temperament Test title. I'll stack that up against the "regular" GSDs any day!

I never said the SV was for it. I said they did fault it for many years. And when they did they gave no real good answer as to why seeing how there is no difference what so ever betwwen a white and the colored.

What does breeding two whites have to do with not breeding the best dogs out there? If the dog has the structure, outstanding temperment, drive and so forth how do you know that dog is not the best out there? Just because it is white? That is not a good reason in my book.

The white has already proved itself in work agianst the standard colored GSD. And it defiantely can hold its own agianst them and in some cases surpass them.
Nicole

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Ok you wanted examples of these dogs in working venues. Well her are some links of White Shepherds who have excelled in everything from Assistance dogs to military dogs. This is only one breeders progeny and not a full list either.
http://www.hoofprint.ws/service_dogs.html

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Ok, you showed me some, but its not ONE breeder's progeny, looks to be many breeders encompassing the past 20+ years or so, I'd expect the list to be 1000X's that big. But whatever.

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Here is another great link showing the many different working venues of Whites:
http://www.kerstoneshepherds.com/versatile.htm

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They're almost the exact same dogs as in the first link, I see very little in the way of real working titles on those dogs, but I guess they're working.

I don't really care about firsts, i'm talking about consitency and real work. Flyball although fun and exciting does nothing to test the nerve courage, or temperment of a GSD which is of course the real test of the breed.

How many have achieved a TDX title since compared to other working shepherds, how many have achieved an FH or FH II title compared to the others??

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Need more? I can get a whole lot more. Temperament Test (conducted by Temperament Test Associates of Ontario), 80% of the White Shepherds tested attained their Temperament Test title. I'll stack that up against the "regular" GSDs any day!

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With the amount of BYB's in the US and Canada passing off AKC registerd GSD's and real dog's, like its supposed to suprise me. Give me the dogs represented from an honest GSD breeder, and I'll take that bet any day of the freaking week.

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I never said the SV was for it. I said they did fault it for many years. And when they did they gave no real good answer as to why seeing how there is no difference what so ever betwwen a white and the colored.

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OK, last time, Whites have been faulted by the SV Since the beginning, they've never been desired, they've always been selected AGAINST from the very start, except by those breeding for color. Those that breed only for color are no better than those that breed only for gait or only for extreme drives, you lose the GSD when you breed for one trait. So, since the beginning you have a color that was selected against being passed on, and you're telling me that somehow you end up with good working dogs?? OK

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The white has already proved itself in work agianst the standard colored GSD. And it defiantely can hold its own agianst them and in some cases surpass them.

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If that's what you want to believe. LSP, BSP, WUSV Herding trials, any whites win anything there??? Or even compete Don't bother, I already know the answer.

How do you breed your whites?? what titles do they have to prove their worthiness?? How does that test their nerve, their desire, their courage, their temperment? what venue do you work in??

answer or not, i'm done, i work in these fields, i've researched myself the history of the GSD, and I know what whites are and where they came from. I know what the originators said of the breed, and I know how the current breeding stock in the US came to be

I am just shaking my head. I answered your questions. I never said that was the whole list. That is just a tiny part of the list. But if you choose to beleive what you do go ahead. I know different. Saying just because a white breeder is breeding for color means they are not breeding for the total package is just plain wrong and laughable.

My breeding program is not in discussion here. And i will not discuss it with someone who has such a narror view of white shepehrds.

You are entilted to your opinion as I am to mine and everyone else here is to theirs. I have shown in this thread that a well bred white Shepherd can do all that a stand GSD can. Which is my whole point. That is why they will be come a seperate breed.

I wonder what Irish Setter breeders or other breeders of breeds with one coat color or type would tink about your post about breeding for only one color. lol
Nicole

honey you know who I am in judging- your babies are beautiful and we will talk later okay????

Thank you for your pms. Your babies are fine. I judge terriers and herding, and they look good to me without putting my hands on them. I am sending picture of me judging shepherds.

jackfrost -- what you fail to see is that it doesn't matter what rules and what standards accompany and have EVER accompanied the German shepherd dog. We aren't talking about the German shepherd dog here. This is the American white shepherd -- so by saying that only coloured dogs should be bred, you are excluding an entire breed, in which ONLY WHITE DOGS are allowed. Max Von Stephanitz was the founder of the German shepherd, not the American White Shepherd -- so what he thought does not matter. Perhaps what he thought was one of the determining factors in the breed split. No one is fighting to breed white German shepherds. They are only fighting to breed American white shepherds. They are recognised by UKC and FCI, and are on their way to AKC recognition. They are a breed, not a curse against a breed it no longer has anything to do with.

Don't get me wrong, I hate to see one breed split into another, such as in the Belgian varieties -- but in this situation I'm all for it. These dogs have a better future as far as health goes.