Make love, not war?

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10-30-2006, 04:51 AM
RICHARD

Make love, not war?

Woman MP demands hookers for the troops

A top female politician ín Holland wants Dutch prostitutes sent abroad with the troops to help them relax.

Annemarie Jorritsma, a politician for the centre-right People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD) and the mayor of the town of Almere, went on national Dutch TV to demand the 'extra benefits' for soldiers.

She added: "The army must think about how their soldiers can let off some steam."

The ideas has been backed by the Dutch sex workers union which said it thought the idea had some merit.

But an unnamed military spokesman, quoted in the 'Volkskrant' newspaper, expressed reservations.

He said: "I don't think my wife would like the idea very much."

There are currently around 2,000 Dutch soldiers stationed outside of the Netherlands, the majority in either Afghanistan and Bosnia.

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Let off steam??? Hmm, Talk about a "shot in the dark"! :eek: :confused:
10-30-2006, 08:36 PM
Giselle

As if mankind could not get lower... war AND prostitution! Wonderful!
10-30-2006, 09:02 PM
BC_MoM

Stupid idea. Lots of the men over there have wives and children - they don't need prostitutes.
10-31-2006, 12:33 AM
CathyBogart

I think it's an interesting idea....not sure how much merit it has, but....look up where the name "hooker" originated.
10-31-2006, 02:20 AM
Lady's Human

In the history of armies and warfare, the presence of prostitutes is a normal thing. It is an oddity of the 20th century that there aren't women who travel with the army. (There are, but they aren't officially sanctioned)
10-31-2006, 06:54 AM
areias

And what about men for the ladies? :D
10-31-2006, 07:42 AM
Laura's Babies

:eek: :rolleyes: What next? (I am afraid to even ask!)
10-31-2006, 10:19 AM
BC_MoM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady's Human

In the history of armies and warfare, the presence of prostitutes is a normal thing.

But is it right?
10-31-2006, 10:36 AM
Miss Z

Quote:

Originally Posted by areias

And what about men for the ladies? :D

Good point! :p :D

I find that idea pretty disturbing...
10-31-2006, 12:53 PM
Lady's Human

Is it right?

Depends on your point of view. For the Dutch, it's probably fine, as prostitution is a part of their society.
10-31-2006, 01:48 PM
CathyBogart

Quote:

Originally Posted by BC_MoM

But is it right?

I don't honestly see why not. If someone has a moral problem with it, nobody's going to make them use the women's services.
10-31-2006, 01:51 PM
Pembroke_Corgi

Well, I'm not sure how I feel. Having adult women who practice safe sex is much better than most alternatives.

Sadly, many centers of child prostitution are centered around US army bases. :( Having women willingly engage in the behavior is much preferrable to children having to be subject to such treatment. :(
10-31-2006, 03:26 PM
Lady's Human

Quote:

Sadly, many centers of child prostitution are centered around US army bases.

Excuse me?
10-31-2006, 04:28 PM
dukedogsmom

There is a way for them to let off steam without a hooker. I'm not getting into details............
10-31-2006, 04:33 PM
Miss Z

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady's Human

For the Dutch, it's probably fine, as prostitution is a part of their society.

I expect you're thinking of Amsterdam, yep, it's definitely rife there. However, my dad works for a Dutch based company and I have visted the more 'normal' parts of Holland myself, and most of the more average Dutch folk are appalled by Amsterdam and probably would be appalled by this idea.
10-31-2006, 06:47 PM
Pembroke_Corgi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady's Human

Excuse me?

http://www.wm.edu/so/monitor/spring2000/paper6.htm
http://www.zmag.org/Sustainers/Conte...29hartmann.cfm
http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/philippi.htm
http://www.catwinternational.org/fac...hilippines.php
http://www.peacenews.info/issues/2442/244224.html
10-31-2006, 07:15 PM
Lady's Human

The only parts of those links that pertain to US military bases are old data from the Vietnam and Korean wars. If a soldier in the modern US military is engaged in any way, shape or form with child prostitution they are in a world of hurt. We're not choirboys by any stretch of the imagination, but there are things you CANNOT engage in, and that is one of them.
10-31-2006, 07:46 PM
Pembroke_Corgi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady's Human

The only parts of those links that pertain to US military bases are old data from the Vietnam and Korean wars. If a soldier in the modern US military is engaged in any way, shape or form with child prostitution they are in a world of hurt. We're not choirboys by any stretch of the imagination, but there are things you CANNOT engage in, and that is one of them.

I'm not suggesting that the military condones prostitution, and I'm sure it certainly doesn't condone child prostitution. However, the fact remains that US army bases ARE centers for prostitution, and women and child trafficking. It still happens today...but the military is not the only source of these problems, certainly. This article even states that occupation of the PEACE CORPS is correlated with an increase in prostitution:
http://www.humanrightsadvocates.org/images/NGO%2095.pdf

Judgments about prostitution in general aside, I think most people would consider child prostitution "wrong"- I certainly do. However, what constitutes a child? In our society, it's legally anyone under the age of 18. Do you think that that's going to stop people in the sex trade, who are buying a selling girls? No. And I also think that someone who is buying sex is most likely not going to ask- maybe they are 15, or 19, where do you draw the line and consider it "more" of a crime?

The fact is, whether people are allowed to or not, military occupation is linked to higher rates of prostitution and human trafficking. I don't think it went away in the last 40 years. Here are some more sources that highlight more recent times:

http://www.yapi.org/csec/

http://sisyphe.org/article.php3?id_article=965

http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/ar...01/052501a.htm
10-31-2006, 07:53 PM
Lady's Human

I still don't see what the US military has to do with this. Most of those articles cited NYC, Las Vegas, and Los Angeles in the US. Those are urban hubs, and have little if anything to do with the military.
10-31-2006, 08:32 PM
Pembroke_Corgi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady's Human

I still don't see what the US military has to do with this. Most of those articles cited NYC, Las Vegas, and Los Angeles in the US. Those are urban hubs, and have little if anything to do with the military.

So hundreds and thousands of people in one area does not increase demand? Demand for food, entertainment, and for some sex. I will quote some of the articles I have linked to as well as some others if you are unable to see the connection between the articles I posted and the military. To reiterate, I am not suggesting that US military bases are the ONLY places where this occurs. I am also not saying that the military in any way, shape, or form finds this acceptable. However, there is a huge correlation between the proximity of US military bases and centers of prostitution.

Quoted from United Nations Report:

"The Role of the Military in Creating Demand
7. HRA has identified the military’s role in perpetuating the problem of trafficking. (See E/CN.4/2002/NGO/43 and E/CN.4/2003/NGO/40). Patronization of brothels and sex clubs by military personnel has contributed not only to a demand for prostitution but to the demand for trafficked women.
8. A Korean congressional report estimates that the majority of women in the sex industry are prostitutes around U.S. military bases.6 Although prostitution is against South Korean law and patronizing prostitutes is prohibited by U.S. military regulation, the brothels near the bases have long been an open secret. There are reports that more than 3000 Filipina women were being recruited as sex workers to service American troops stationed in Mindanao and South Korean military bases.7 There are also large numbers of women from Russia, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Moldova. These women served as replacements for Korean women who felt they could get better tips working in clubs for Korean customers. The Korean government provided special “entertainment visas” (E-6) for these women. Among the 4,735 foreign female
workers holding E-6 visas, 4,234 were working at bars, clubs and hotels, as well as clubs reserved exclusively for U.S. servicemen. 8
9. The “war on terrorism” is likely to fuel the trafficking of women and girls. President Bush’s declaration that the Philippines is America’s “second front” in the war against terrorism means an increase in US troops, and an increase in the sale of Filipinas. It is reported that since the deployment of US troops to the Philippines in February 2002, sex trafficking of Filipinas has increased to 600%. During the first Gulf War, there were reports of “rest and recreation”
ships, each with 50 Filipinas for the use of US troops who could not enter Islamic countries."

Quoted from the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women, Testimony of Janice G. Raymond, Ph.D. before the Subcommittee on human rights, House of Representatives:

"What are the factors promoting sex trafficking in different parts of the globe...Military presence which generates sex industries in many parts of the world that are tolerated by governments, including our own, as rest and recreation venues for the troops;"

Quoted from Youth Advocate Program International (page 6):

"Children who live near military bases. Prostitution has always thrived near military bases. Because of the high demand, children near the bases are more vulnerable to this flourishing business. Women and children have been trafficked from other countries to meet the demands of military personnel."

From another source in Youth Advocate Program International :

"Military bases, historically breeding grounds for prostitution due to the presence of large numbers of men separated from their families and not living in normal societal conditions, continue to play host to sex trade businesses of adults and children."

Quoted from Peace News :
"A military presence has a massively disproportionate impact on the local economy, and in particular on the economic opportunities open to poor women. The economics are simple: in countries devastated by waror in countries of the south such as the Philippines, where 70% of the population live below the poverty line prostitution offers women an opportunity to earn a living: womens bodies become a commodity. At the height of the US presence in the Philippines, for example, more than 60,000 women and children were employed in bars, night clubs and massage parlours around the Subic Bay and Clark Naval bases alone. Estimates of the total numbers of Filipina women and girls engaged in prostitution and other sex-based industries range between 300,000 and 600,000.
But militarised prostitution is not merely a simple transaction between a woman and her client. It can and does involve bars and brothel owners, local and internationalpolice, mayors and public health officials, organised crime and national and foreign government departments. All have an interest in the provision of sexual services to the military. Figures produced by the US in 1981 claimed that presence of their bases contributed around $170 million into the Philippine economy in that year alone2. The R&R (Rest and Relaxation) Agreements agreed by the US and, respectively, the Japanese, Philippine and South Korean governments both sanctioned and created militarised prostitution; less explicitly, SOFA (Status of Forces Agreements) can do much the same. At no point are women themselves involved in the process of creating this industry, nor are their protests heardabout the conditions they work in, the enforced vaginal examinations they are subject to, or the violence perpetrated on them by their military clients."

Quoted from Znet:

"Military bases are notorious for their contribution to prostitution, child prostitution, and the spread of HIV/AIDS. In countries where prostitution is illegal, women are counted as “special job workers” and are categorically denied protection against abuse both by their customer and their boss.
At the U.S. Udon Air Force Base in Thailand, the number of “special job workers” increased from 1246 in 1966 to 6234 in 1972 during the Vietnam War. In 1991, a U.S. Navy convoy returning from the Gulf War with seven thousand soldiers made a stop at the Thai beach resort town of Pattaya. The men aboard were prepped on how to use a condom and the convoy was greeted with banners that proclaimed, “Welcome U.S. navy to the Red Parrot Sexy Life Show.”
Military base prostitution has led to the devastating spread of HIV among prostitutes. Today, sex workers are still blamed for the spread of HIV/AIDS and sexually transmitted infections while little or no attention is given to the military’s role."

I will stop here, but there are many, many more sources which link military occupation to an increase in prostitution.
10-31-2006, 10:27 PM
Lady's Human

Quote:

It is reported that since the deployment of US troops to the Philippines in February 2002, sex trafficking of Filipinas has increased to 600%.

To say this is an inflated figure would be an understatement, as the total deployment of US troops to the Philippines was a spec ops contingent of 600 troops. Either they're some REALLY busy troops (Highly unlikely, as spec ops troops, despite the movie image, are mostly in very stable relationships) or someone is massaging the figures just a tad.
11-01-2006, 02:32 AM
RICHARD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady's Human

I still don't see what the US military has to do with this. Most of those articles cited NYC, Las Vegas, and Los Angeles in the US. Those are urban hubs, and have little if anything to do with the military.

LOLOLOLOL,
So true!

In El Lay there are newspaper machines that sell "singles" paper that advertise escort services.....

In Lost Vegas prostituion is legal, there is a place called the Bunny Ranch where people go to have their ashes hauled.....

The truth is "an army travels on their stomach".

The last thing an soldier thinks about is sex....

Food, a shower and clean socks rank 1,2,3....
11-01-2006, 05:21 AM
Barbara

Hmmmm---- and I always thought prostitution was part of any society..... not only the Dutch :p

And I thought that rape was a part of any war........

How stupid I am :rolleyes:
11-01-2006, 07:40 AM
Zippy

That is great :rolleyes: I am scared of what they will think up next.*sighs*
11-01-2006, 10:08 AM
Lady's Human

Barbara,

I was referring to prostitution as a LEGAL part of dutch society, as opposed to most of the US, where it is illegal.
11-01-2006, 10:10 AM
Edwina's Secretary

Quote:

Originally Posted by RICHARD

The last thing an soldier thinks about is sex....

Food, a shower and clean socks rank 1,2,3....

You guys are sooo funny. The last thing a soldier thinks about is sex! :D :D :D

Way too many John Wayne movies RICHARD!

Of course....things might have change since the Civil War...when hookers got that name....from the prostitutes servicing General Hooker's troops....

Of course, since then...prostitution is only a part of the Dutch society...
11-01-2006, 10:14 AM
Pembroke_Corgi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady's Human

To say this is an inflated figure would be an understatement, as the total deployment of US troops to the Philippines was a spec ops contingent of 600 troops. Either they're some REALLY busy troops (Highly unlikely, as spec ops troops, despite the movie image, are mostly in very stable relationships) or someone is massaging the figures just a tad.

Well, ok, you don't agree, that's fine. I've honestly spent enough time researching this when I could have been doing something else. I think my sources support my claims, while I notice you don't have any.
11-01-2006, 10:18 AM
Lady's Human

PC, I've just spent 20 years of my life as a part of the US military. I have seen what goes on, and have also seen constant inflated claims against the "abuses" of the US Military. Funny how most of those claims disappear into thin air when the US says "okay, we'll remove the troops from your areas".
11-01-2006, 12:33 PM
RICHARD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary

You guys are sooo funny. The last thing a soldier thinks about is sex! :D :D :D

Way too many John Wayne movies RICHARD!

What are you saying?

John Wayne didn't have a penis?

Of, course he did walk funny, But, I think that you should apologize to all cinematic soldiers for hinting that they were sexless.

And speaking of Mr Botched Humor himself....

Didn't JFK (the fake one, not the president) hint that the U.S. soldiers were killing and raping in Iraq?

It's been a while, but I never wanted to go out to rape and pillage after some good lovin'... :confused: :eek: :o

Hmmm,
Maybe having the 'edge' taken off will make the soldiers kinder and gentler.
11-01-2006, 10:07 PM
Giselle

Prostitution is disgusting and degrading. Child or not. Prostitution is wrong. It's not okay and it's demoralizing to send whores to our soldiers.

Am I the only one who thinks this?? :eek:

ETA: CathyBogart, I learned about Hooker a while ago. I didn't remember him until you brought it up :) Good point, but prostitution is wrong nonetheless.
11-01-2006, 10:56 PM
Lady's Human

Giselle,

this has nothing to do with US soldiers. It is the Dutch government that the proposal was put to.
11-02-2006, 10:28 PM
Giselle

OH! I missed that. I thought you guys simply brought up the Dutch as a reference to prostitution in society.
11-05-2006, 01:51 PM
RICHARD

Granny lands bouncer job at brothel

A 70-year-old grandmother has landed a job as a bouncer at a brothel in Berlin.

According to the owner, granny Waltraud Hotzl, known as 'Mumsy', has no problem turning away drunks and other undesirables who never argue with OAP at theFraulein Mueller brothel in Hermannplatz.

Her boss Johann Vepsi, 41, said: "She's got the business perfectly under control. Mumsy is far and away the best for the job."

As well as ensuring customers are well-behaved, 'Mumsy' settles disputes between the prostitutes.

Vepsi added: "If she hears of a squabble between the girls, she will shout 'children, all quiet on deck please'. Total silence always follows."

--------------

Blessed are the peacemakers. :D
11-11-2006, 12:26 AM
WolvesRawk

Wow. That's the problem with today's society. It seems nearly everyone supports killing and sex.