Need serious input!

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05-30-2006, 08:56 PM
catnapper

Need serious input!

I'm going to try to make this as clear as I can.... and all based on the facts as I know them.

I have a German Shep puppy in my class, she started the intermediate level tonight. She came to me as a young puppy just rescued from the woman's mom. The mom had her chained to a dog house outside and treated her AWFUL. The woman and her husband told the mom that they were rescuing the puppy from her.

Fast forward a few months. Holly is now 6 months. She is going to the vet tomorrow for blood tests related to her spay (which is not yet offically sheduled). Holly is a strong headed little girl who prefers to NOT listen to mom and dad when they ask her to sit, come, stay, etc. But they are (were?) really working with her and I was starting to see some real progress. Her puppy class ended last month, and they wanted to send her to intermediate right away but they were in the process of moving. Turns out they lost the house they were in the middle of buying and they moved in with the mom for an undetermined amount of time. The move happened last week.

I saw Holly last week. She seemed fine, a little wilder than usual but mom and dad said it was because she was crated more since they were busy moving boxes. That was a completely understandable reason.

I saw Holly tonight. I was APPALED. She snapped at another dog, whose owner threatended to leave class if ever Holly does that again, she nipped at me, she tried to snap another coworker's face. She snapped at mom and really growled agressively several times during the class. She brked like crazy (not typically of her -- she'd bark before but a few woofs and she was done)

Now, I was thinking the move upset her. Then we figure in that she's been left alone more than she's been used to. Then add in the fact that she back to living with the woman who initially abused her as a tiny pup. Perhaps she's about to go into heat? Perhaps our hot and hmid weather is affecting her?

I was upset aout this abrupt change in Holly and stayed after class discussing the change with her parents. They left with me promising to look into why she might be reacting so badly.

Then.......

my coworker approached me after they left. She said she saw the husband PUNCH Holly in the FACE!!!!!! I could cry. I can't believe he would do that since I've watched him work so well with her. She's come so far. But I AHVE to believe my coworker since she'd never lie about somethign like that. Could it be that he's frustrated with her new behavior and he reacted only once like that? Could it be that he's been steadily hitting her and nobody's been witness to it?

What do I say to him? HOW do I say it? I have to say something if he's been seen hitting her. Its my responsibility as a positive trainer to say something - even if its not in my job description I can't personally ignore abuse.

HELP. :(

I've had such a great relationship with this couple and the dog has been a sweetheart til now. She honestly seems to have developed a second personality. Anyone have any ideas what might be the real root of the situation?
05-30-2006, 09:01 PM
Kfamr

IMO, that type of physical interaction with a dog is abuse. Plain ole abuse.

I would ask the couple to stay after one day to further their lesson in training.
05-30-2006, 09:05 PM
*LabLoverKEB*

I strongly agree with what Kay said- that's abuse.
05-30-2006, 09:19 PM
catnapper

I know its abuse. I just don't know how to handle it, or just how much of Holly's behavior is from him or other external factors. I WILL be approaching them about hte punch. I CAN NOT let that one go without me bringing it up. I am just so upset because they were so serious about treating her right and getting her out of the abusive situation the mom kept her in.... and here they are abusing her themselves. :(

I'm so heartbroken right now. Holly is a sweet little girl. She had come so far.... and to see her tonight just shocked me.
05-30-2006, 09:27 PM
lute

i would tell the man that a witness came to you saying they saw him hit the dog. you don't want people seeing someone treat a dog like that in front of the training center. just the right person might see him do it and think "it happend in front of a training center, it must be ok to hit my dog." she may be comming into heat. Gracie always gets a lil out of control when she's in heat, but she NEVER tries to bite anyone. if the dog was trying to bite him when he punched the dog explain to him that there are other ways to correct this behavior.

GOOD LUCK!
05-30-2006, 09:46 PM
Cincy'sMom

The hardest part, is that if you outright accuse him, he may get hostile or defensive. Maybe you could bring it up that a co-worker saw they were having some problems as they were leaving and thought they could use some suggestions of how to control the dogs behavior. Obviously if you see it yourself, or if it seems to be continuing you may need to take more drastic measures. Obviously punching a dog is never okay, but if there is a less confrontational way to bring it up, he may be more receptive.
05-30-2006, 09:52 PM
luvofallhorses

I also strongly agree with Kay. - that poor pup! :( I hope you can help her. Even if he does get frusturated with her, that is NO excuse to treat her the way he does. Good luck and please, please keep us updated!!
05-30-2006, 10:02 PM
zoomer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kfamr

IMO, that type of physical interaction with a dog is abuse. Plain ole abuse.

I would ask the couple to stay after one day to further their lesson in training.

I strongly agree with Kay.
05-30-2006, 10:11 PM
Sevaede

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kfamr

IMO, that type of physical interaction with a dog is abuse. Plain ole abuse.

I would ask the couple to stay after one day to further their lesson in training.

I agree.
05-30-2006, 10:27 PM
dr2little

Quote:

Originally Posted by catnapper

I know its abuse. I just don't know how to handle it, or just how much of Holly's behavior is from him or other external factors. I WILL be approaching them about hte punch. I CAN NOT let that one go without me bringing it up. I am just so upset because they were so serious about treating her right and getting her out of the abusive situation the mom kept her in.... and here they are abusing her themselves. :(

I'm so heartbroken right now. Holly is a sweet little girl. She had come so far.... and to see her tonight just shocked me.

I'd be careful how you approach the punch, while it would be hard not to directly address the incident it may push them away and distroy any hope of helping this poor dog. Do you offer private training? When I have a class member who I suspect is using physical punishment I find that they relax and come clean on their own turf much more than if I were to take them aside after class. I do offer a no charge private session for these cases as I think that I may loose an opportunity to have a positive effect on the dog otherwise. Just a thought... :)
Oh, I never introduced myself...I'm new here! I'm proudly owned by 5 dogs and am a behaviorist in Alberta Canada (owner of Diamond in the "Ruff" Inc.)
05-30-2006, 10:50 PM
BC_MoM

Whether he's frustrated or not, it gives him NO reason to harm a dog (or ANY animal) in ANY way!!

I would call the Humane Society or Animal Control. This pup needs to stop being abused.

Sure, the parents may be training her and trying their best, but they are (possibly) still abusing her.
05-30-2006, 10:51 PM
luvofallhorses

Quote:

Originally Posted by BC_MoM

Whether he's frustrated or not, it gives him NO reason to harm a dog (or ANY animal) in ANY way!!

I would call the Humane Society or Animal Control. This pup needs to stop being abused.

Sure, the parents may be training her and trying their best, but they are (possibly) still abusing her.

I agree.
05-30-2006, 11:08 PM
lisahumphreys882

I think that even if a Holly has only been abused once or twice...especially to those levels (firstly by the way the mom treated her and secondly by being punched in the face) she may very well react the way she did(or still does) despite being sweet before. As the others suggested, you should definitely bring the abuse up with the husband because we all know that that is cruel for someone to hit a dog. So sorry for all the stress you have to deal with. Hope this situation turns for the better!
05-31-2006, 12:39 AM
Giselle

Quote:

Originally Posted by lisahumphreys882

I think that even if a Holly has only been abused once or twice...especially to those levels (firstly by the way the mom treated her and secondly by being punched in the face) she may very well react the way she did(or still does) despite being sweet before. As the others suggested, you should definitely bring the abuse up with the husband because we all know that that is cruel for someone to hit a dog. So sorry for all the stress you have to deal with. Hope this situation turns for the better!

I agree with this. I truly don't believe the weather or hormones can cause a dog to snap *continuously* and consistently over a very short time period (the class is only, what, an hour long?). She obviously sustained some serious abuse during the period before the move and after the move because she's gone back into her hand-shy state of mind. IMO, 1) she's probably receiving very little positive human interaction at home and 2) the little interaction she does receive tends to air on the negative side - crating for prolonged periods of times, screaming, yelling (kicking the crate even?). If she barks like a maniac in class, I have to wonder if she barks when she's being crated...

My guess is that Holly was abused during the move because of her owner's stress. I have no doubt in my mind that if the man had the audacity to punch Holly in open public, he had the will to punch her and neglect her at home. I'm not saying that he's "evil" or anything, but the stress of moving and losing a home is overwhelming. I pity the man :( He must not enjoy hurting Holly like that since they obviously have the commitment to devote several hours and a large sum of money on the pup. I think the root of the problem must lie further down than just a failed move. Does this man *like* living with his mother? Is Holly getting abused by the mother again or is she just not receving any attention at all?

I'd call the couple aside after a lesson and calmly find out what's really going on. Be compassionate and helpful and I think they'd love to continue extensive personal training. Oh dear, good luck! :/
05-31-2006, 04:47 AM
chocolatepuppy

Quote:

my coworker approached me after they left. She said she saw the husband PUNCH Holly in the FACE!!!!!!

She should have been on the phone to animal control before that guy ever got out of the parking lot. :mad: If he did it in the store , he does it all the time. Holly will soon be an unpredictable dog, bite someone and be pts if he continues to treat her like this. :(
05-31-2006, 05:44 AM
Pam

Kim, could you say that the action was captured on a store surveillance videotape that someone was playing over at the end of the night? You could use that as the reason you would like to spend some time with these people *one on one* and strongly stress to him how terribly wrong his behavior was and offer alternatives. This might make him a little less hostile than if he thought he was being attacked by a particular store employee.

You must just feel awful. I would too and would have probably laid in bed last night and worried about that poor dog and her future. :( Poor Holly, she deserves better than that. Please update us and let us know how this goes. *sigh*
05-31-2006, 07:57 AM
Pawsitive Thinking

Quote:

I've had such a great relationship with this couple and the dog has been a sweetheart til now. She honestly seems to have developed a second personality. Anyone have any ideas what might be the real root of the situation?

I would ask them the exact same question adding something like "apart from the move can you think of anything else that may have caused this.....has anyone new been introduced to her...could someone be hitting her without your knowledge.....dogs respond to praise not punishment etc etc" that type of thing. Try dropping less than subtle hints that you've got a good idea why Holly is reacting like she is...

My other idea was to pin him up against the wall, punch him in the face and ask him how he likes it..................
05-31-2006, 09:30 AM
caseysmom

I am not sure if the local humane society would take the dog away based on this. I think the best approach is to try to make the owner see the error of his ways, hopefully he is frustrated and knows better just acted out of anger. Hopefully this will not be ongoing for this poor dog.
05-31-2006, 09:32 AM
shihtzulover850

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brody's Mum

I would ask them the exact same question adding something like "apart from the move can you think of anything else that may have caused this.....has anyone new been introduced to her...could someone be hitting her without your knowledge.....dogs respond to praise not punishment etc etc" that type of thing. Try dropping less than subtle hints that you've got a good idea why Holly is reacting like she is...

I agree!
05-31-2006, 09:34 AM
shihtzulover850

also I would recommend positive attention to her try to calm her as best as posssible.
05-31-2006, 10:47 AM
dr2little

Quote:

Originally Posted by caseysmom

I am not sure if the local humane society would take the dog away based on this. I think the best approach is to try to make the owner see the error of his ways, hopefully he is frustrated and knows better just acted out of anger. Hopefully this will not be ongoing for this poor dog.

I deal with this way too often :mad: Unless the dog needs Vet. care and has obvious injuries, no governing body will do anything. That poor dog is considered his property :mad: That's why I suggested taking a deep breath and not loosing your cool. The only way to get to the dog is through him, and you can't do that if you scare him away. I can't tell you how often I want to launch myself at someone, but in order to make a difference in the dogs life, I have to calmly deal with as#ho&8s!! So not right!
05-31-2006, 03:55 PM
Dixieland Dancer

Quote:

Originally Posted by catnapper

I have a German Shep puppy in my class, she started the intermediate level tonight. Holly is now 6 months.

Several red flags catch my eye in this post. I'll try to address them all....

First, why is a 6 month old puppy in an intermediate level training class? At 6 months they should be in a basic class working on polishing and refining the basic commands any dog needs to be a good canine citizen. Just because a dog completes one class should not mean they are ready to move on to another class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by catnapper

Holly is a strong headed little girl who prefers to NOT listen to mom and dad when they ask her to sit, come, stay, etc. But they are (were?) really working with her and I was starting to see some real progress.

They may of been working with her but apparently when classes stopped, so did they. A puppy needs continuous work no matter what. I would stress to both of them (hopefully one of them will listen) that it only takes 15 minutes a day twice a day to reinforce learning behaviors at home and that no matter how busy they are, they have to find the time. A dog who will NOT listen to basic commands indicates to me the dog never fully understood what it was being asked to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by catnapper

I saw Holly last week. She seemed fine, a little wilder than usual but mom and dad said it was because she was crated more since they were busy moving boxes. That was a completely understandable reason.

I saw Holly tonight. I was APPALED..... Now, I was thinking the move upset her. Then we figure in that she's been left alone more than she's been used to. Then add in the fact that she back to living with the woman who initially abused her as a tiny pup. Perhaps she's about to go into heat? Perhaps our hot and hmid weather is affecting her?

It's not a completely understandable reason to me! Why is the dog crated just because they are moving boxes? Even when my life is out of control, I make the time to exercise my dogs, especially if they are puppies! It's a committment to have a dog! I could understand if someone was in the hospital or dying or very sick and couldn't give time, but moving boxes is not a valid excuse for neglecting a puppy. If they can use that as an excuse now, what will the excuse be later? :mad: You need to stress the importance of exercising the pup both mentally and physically.

This problem is not because the dog may be going into heat. This is a plain out problem of not enough interaction with the dog and proper understanding of training (or committment to training) of the mom and dad! As the trainer, don't make excuses for them or look for excuses for them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by capnapper

I was upset aout this abrupt change in Holly and stayed after class discussing the change with her parents. They left with me promising to look into why she might be reacting so badly.

I applaud you for your efforts but as a trainer, you need to realize there is only so much you can do. This entire problem SCREAMS out to me that the mom and dad may of had good intentions in rescuing the dog originally but those good intentions died when life got in the way. How far do you have to look into why she might be reacting so badly before you realize it's because she is not getting positive reinforcement for doing good things at home? It's really not your responsibility to look into it. It's theirs! They need to work harder if they want a good pup. I always tell people in our beginning class, right from the start, there are NO BAD DOGS, only bad owners! I then stress if your dog has a problem, it's because you haven't worked at the problem from the right angle yet. While basic dog training does provide a foundation for training, it is not a one size fits all solution. Each dog has it's own individual needs and the owner needs to determine what they are. That's why it's called homework! It needs to be done in a positive light or the dogs will rebel and display inappropriate behavior as you are seeing. Just as in skin kids, the older they get without proper intervention and correction, the worse they get.

Quote:

Originally Posted by catnapper

Then.......

my coworker approached me after they left. She said she saw the husband PUNCH Holly in the FACE!!!!!! I could cry. I can't believe he would do that since I've watched him work so well with her. She's come so far. But I AHVE to believe my coworker since she'd never lie about somethign like that. Could it be that he's frustrated with her new behavior and he reacted only once like that? Could it be that he's been steadily hitting her and nobody's been witness to it?

Unfortunately, you can only deal with what you know are the issues. It is possible that what she thinks she saw may of been something completely different. I am not saying your coworker is lying to you, I'm just saying that you can not address this issue with the mom and dad unless you personally are witness. I never work off of hearsay. Too many times I get accused of saying or doing something that someone interpreted wrong. I WOULD keep an eye open though for the slightest possible sign that abuse is happening. If he is abusing the dog, you will know it by the way he works the dog.

Quote:

Originally Posted by catnapper

What do I say to him? HOW do I say it? I have to say something if he's been seen hitting her. Its my responsibility as a positive trainer to say something - even if its not in my job description I can't personally ignore abuse.

HELP. :(

You DO NOT have to say anything to him. If you do, you may lose your edge to help the dog. First off, you are going from hear say and not actually witnessing it. Can you imagine if you went to talk to a defense lawyer.... Did you actually see him hit the dog? Well, no sir but my friend did. What exactly did you friend see? He punched the dog in the face. Was it a direct punch? How hard was the punch? I'm not sure, sir. I didn't actually witness the punch. What angle was your friend standing when she witnessed this punch? Is it possible it could of just seemed like a punch from where she was standing but was actually more of a brush? Was the gentlemans hand completely closed? I think you see where I am going with this....

What I would do in this case.... I would offer to work with them individually. A few private sessions should give you a clearer indication of what is really going on. Suggest they come 1/2 hour or 45 minutes earlier before the group class. Charge them accordingly. If you do it for free, you lose your professionalism. If they only stay for part of the group class that's ok. The pup still needs to be around other dogs and situations.

Your task.... You need to stress the importance of homework (working on what was taught in class at home, no matter what) and physical exercise. You need to stress the committment they made when they decided to rescue the dog. Refer them to good reading material in dog training. I strongly recommend clicker training and any of Karen Pryor's books on positive dog training, especially, Don't shoot the dog!

Whatever you do, don't go by emotion but by what you know works! Getting emotional will wear you down faster than anything else I can think of. If these people are genuinely interested in their dogs best behavior they will listen to you like you are reading them the Bible.

There are NO BAD DOGS, only bad handlers! If I have a problem with my dog, it's not his fault, it's mine for not teaching them a better way. I stress this in every one of my classes because if the owner realizes it's on their shoulders, they may think twice before surrendering their dog to a shelter later in life for bad behavior.

Experience is the best teacher and you will see a lot more of this if you continue to train dogs. Remember you can't save the whole dog world but perhaps a few pieces of it! :D