Dobermans - Need Info

Hey all,

My heart will always lie with sighthounds, but I just love the look of "bad rep" breeds like pitties and rotties so it's no surprise that the Doberman happens to be one of my favorite breeds. Although it certainly isn't feasible to add another dog into our household (especially a Doberman at that), I would like to know more about Dobies.

From what I gather, they generally have:
- high drive, unless you acquire a dog from strictly conformation lines
- high protective instincts
- an undeniable need for obedience classes
- a need for an experienced owner (this is what I'm slightly concerned about)
- an intolerance for same-gender households (another concern)

Many of the above points sound like bad points, but I'm just trying to be brutally honest to myself, so if any Dobie owner would like to refute this or add any info, I'm more than happy to listen/learn. Thanks in advance!

from the few people I've known with dobes, they've all seemed a lot more mellow than that. I did a lot of research on them a while back because I really liked (and still do like) them. I think the Dobe Club of America says as long as you train them and give them all the companionship they need, they are complete sweathearts with anyone. My sister's friend has one and he roams off leash in their yard and comes up to anyone off the street and licks their face! I just love their suspended, springy trot! Some friends a while back had two dobes, both males and they got along wonderfully, but that is just my experience, I've never owned one.

Hi there ... first of all, I want to say that I think its WONDERFUL for anyone to consider a Dobie as an addition to their family. They are such incredible dogs. I don't think they get nearly the admiration they deserve.

I think a lot of what you have heard about Dobermans are common misconceptions. My husband grew up with the breed, so he knows far more than I do, but I have had hands on experience with ours, as well as extensive research before we brought him home.

I wouldn't normally consider Dobermans to be overly prey driven ... especially not when compared to sighthounds or other hunting breeds. With that being said, there are some who are, but I think its more of an individual characteristic, rather than a breed specific thing. The same with protective instincts. Many of the Dobermans I have known (ours included) are total mushes. Kiz would let anyone and everyone into our home and only ask for belly rubs in return lol. Our Dane is FAR more protective than I could ever see him being, but of course, he is the one people balk at.

Obedience and owner experience are two things I feel go hand in hand with general big dog ownership. You are going to have to take more care, time, and training with larger dogs than toy breeds, just because of their size and people's perfection of them. Dobermans can have their trying moments, but I have found them to be some of the easiest trainable and eager to please dogs out there.

Finally, I have NO clue where the intolerance for same gender households would have started, but its pretty laughable. Dogs love those who love them, regardless of sex, age, race, whatever. They only know what you give to them, and they give that back threefold.

I hope this helps somewhat. Dobermans are an excellent breed of dog, and while they aren't for everyone, and I certainly wouldn't encourage everyone out there to rush right out and get one, I feel that way about every breed. There is a balance, and a match. If you truely have done your homework and understand their needs, they make wonderful companions and family members :)

From what I gather, they generally have:
- high drive, unless you acquire a dog from strictly conformation linesI don't think so, sure some are hyper, but usually they are pretty mellow dogs with a major dober whine! They love to run and play, but can be just as comfortable sleeping in the house. I would say 2 hours of play a day would be good for a dobie, but that's if you have a hyper one. My Maggie is just as content to lay on the couch all day, however if I were to encourage play she'd more than likely follow along! She also has her zoomie moments which are just to cute! lol
- high protective instinctsI think even though Dobies were bred as personal guard dogs it all depends on the doberman itself. I wouldn't say a Doberman is as protective as a caucasian but if they saw their owner being harrased I'm sure they would come to their defense! Once a guy walked into our house without permission and Maggie was right there as quiet as a mouse, teeth bared, and watching the guy. Then my mom came in and Maggie stopped showing her teeth but instead went by my niece and didn't leave her side. Other than that I've never heard of Maggie being protective, she will however sometimes patrol the perimeter of the yard, But I rarely see her do that.
- an undeniable need for obedience classesNot true. Maggie, Mandy( my mom's friend's dog), and Jenn's Kizmet haven't gone to an obediance class. We've trained them ourselves and they are all fine dogs. While obediance class can be a good thing for socialization, it isn't needed if you know what your doing.
- a need for an experienced owner (this is what I'm slightly concerned about)If you are an experienced dog owner that's a plus. They need a firm hand(not actually a hand, Dobermans can be very sensitive).
- an intolerance for same-gender households (another concern)I'm not to sure about that. Maggie has lived with plenty of females in this house and she has not had a problem with any of them. Mandy however did go after Maggie a couple of times, but it was more of a dominance thing than anything else. That's why Mandy was placed in a home with no other dogs.

Never put a male Dobe with another male in the same house! Females generally tend to get along just fine though, just aslong as you don't have two dominant females. They're very, very guardy and protective. Much moreso than any Rottweiler I've ever had. Dobermans are always ready for action! Show Dobes aren't as high drive as working Dobes, but they're not low drive either. Sort of inbetween. They do need an owner who will be able to set the rules straight from the beginning and show them who's boss, as with most dogs. They thrive on obedience and love to learn new things. They're an extremely intelligent breed (a little stubborn too though). I reccomend obedience classes for all dogs, no matter what breed as they do need tons of socializing. Some people don't take their Dobes to obedience classes and are lucky that they do well in public around other dogs and people but more often than not, that isn't the case. They also have a Dober whine...which can get quite annoying but they don't whine all of the time, mostly just when they're anxious or excited. They do need exercise and really enjoy running around but they are quite content just to sleep the day away most of the time also, obviously with young Dobes this won't always be the case. Every Doberman I know plays what I and a friend of mine who breeds Dobes called "the stare game"...lol. Basically, when Dobes are around other Dobes they'll be running around having a great time, suddenly stop and stare at eachother. They then, hoepfully without any of the others noticing, stalk the others and whoever moves first gets pounced on. They try this with other breeds too, but it doesn't work too well as other breeds don't understand the game...lol. They also have a Dober grin. When they're happy, excited, etc. They're curl their lips like they're snarling, but they really aren't. Not all Dobes do this, but tons do. That's all I can think of at the moment, but if you have any other specific questions I'll try to answer them :)

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Originally Posted by Orangutango

Never put a male Dobe with another male in the same house! Females generally tend to get along just fine though, just aslong as you don't have two dominant females.

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I have really never had a problem with this, but would be interested to hear from others as well. Our male Dobie lives with two other male dogs at the moment and has had no issues. He hasn't ever shown distaste to males outside of our home either. I attribute that in part to the fact that he simply knows better, that fighting is not tolerated, and part to the fact that he comes from very even tempered lines.

I suppose there are Dobermans who work differently, but again I think that would be a dog specific, not breed specific thing. I've seen gender agression in anything from Pomeranians to GSDs. Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by EastJenn

I have really never had a problem with this, but would be interested to hear from others as well. Our male Dobie lives with two other male dogs at the moment and has had no issues. He hasn't ever shown distaste to males outside of our home either. I attribute that in part to the fact that he simply knows better, that fighting is not tolerated, and part to the fact that he comes from very even tempered lines.

I suppose there are Dobermans who work differently, but again I think that would be a dog specific, not breed specific thing. I've seen gender agression in anything from Pomeranians to GSDs. Thoughts?

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My friend who has been breeding for roughly 30 years said never to have two or more males in the same house. Yes, it can work as it is in your case but that's not usually how it is. Sometimes the dogs will get a long for years and all of a sudden, they'll fight over something and it'll never be the same again. it's just not a risk you should take. I'm glad it's working for you though. What breeds are your other dogs though? Dobes will get along with many herding & sporting breeds a lot of times, but usually never with other working breeds or terriers. I'm just speaking from experience and what I've been told though. It's just not a risk I'd ever take.

The other two males are a terrier mix (large, about 65lbs) and a Saint Bernard. Our female is a Dane.

Our breeder used to have two males, but one of hers passed away last year. They were always amicable towards each other. I am wondering, if you can never keep two males in the same household, wouldn't having a show kennel be difficult? I suppose you could seperate them ALL the time, but that doesn't seem like any way to raise dogs. JMO.

From my own experience, dobes tend to go to extremes on both sides.

There are the working dobes wihich I prefer -- I have yet to meet one, but Visa's breeder used to breed them (well, they were show/working) and she said she hasn't come across dogs like these since they stopped breeding them. They were smart, high energy, high drive, aggressive, wonderful guard dogs, very protective and great working dogs. They needed to be careful in same-sex households. They had the drive for schutzhund, ring sport, etc. When they were breeding these they of course came across quite a few dobes like these.

Since her dobe breeding days however, she hasn't met any dobes like this -- now it's just the oppisite. We sometimes get dobies in at work, and they are shy, sensitive, submissive, not good guard dogs, with low drive and not alot of working ability. They are playful and goofy rather than strong and alert. These dogs do fine in same-sex households.

So it seems to me that dobies have their extremeties. I think that alot of breeders are ruining the breed, as the only ones I've met have had terrible temperments. I'd like to see more breeders breeding the smart, driven, able to work dogs. Visa's breeder did show the dogs, but they worked as well. She said though that dobies act more aggressive than they really are. She did schutzhund with both dobies and belgians and says the difference between a dobe and a belgian is that if an offender punches the dog in the nose, a dobe will run off whimpering, and it would just piss a Belgian off LOL.

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Originally Posted by Orangutango

Never put a male Dobe with another male in the same house! Females generally tend to get along just fine though, just aslong as you don't have two dominant females.

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That's the information that I always received. There was a thread on another board about whether a prospective owner should get a male or female Dobe puppy when the OP already had both sexes, and it was suggested that the OP get a female Dobe because male Dobes are highly intolerant of other males. My original plan was to get a female, anyways, because Lucky is too dominant and Giselle happens to be very very submissive. I won't be getting a Dobe anytime soon, though. This thread is purely for educational purposes :p

The information I'm getting right now is pretty reassuring. I know I don't have enough comprehensive knowledge about Dobes to successfully train the dog myself (different breeds have different quirks), so obedience classes are a given. I've attended them with Giselle so that isn't an issue.

I do visit DPCA's website every now and then and have memorized their article about the Doberman temperament in modern times and it seems as if it's been a national effort to mellow down the Dobe's temperament. From the info in this thread, it seems like it's working :p Now don't get me wrong, I'm not getting a Dobe solely for protection purposes, but part of what attracts me to this breed is their guarding abilities. I love big dogs, and I also like knowing that my dog could serve as an effective guard dog should the occassion ever arise. I love Giselle, but, let's face it, Greys are wimps! My question now is: Do Dobermans from conformation lines still retain a strong protective instinct or has it more or less been bred out/suppressed?

I'm still not sure if I would want a dog from show or working lines. I'd most likely get an older Dobe from a show home, but I do like the drives in performance dogs although I highly doubt I can keep up with them. Thanks for the all the info everybody!

I just talked to my mentor and she told me that the whole male on male thing is very controversial and that there really isn't a right answer to it.

a quote from her is

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A male Doberman with another male dog is all dependent on that individual dog.

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Hi! I'm a brand new member here, but I thought I'd pop in and share my experiences.

Last May we lost our Doberboy to Cardiomyopathy. We got him as a 9 week old pup from a very small local breeder who cared about her dogs VERY much (my motto on buying from breeders is that If I wouldn't want my own dogs living with them, then they don't get my money. She passed by my standards). As a younger dog (up 'till about 18mo), he was VERY VERY tough to have. Exceptionally high-energy, and too smart for his own good. Two hour-long running and fetching sessions per-day with numerous play sessions in between hardly kept him mellow enough to keep us from loosing our minds. He ate three couches. One quickly (when my Mom needed to go out for groceries and "didn't have the heart" to crate him), and two others slowly over the course of about 6 months. Every table leg, chair arm, and coffee table (wooden) corner was chewed up. He took about a year to be fully housebroken.

But despite all of that, he WAS the "mush" dog so many people know Dobermans as. He had a mysterious way of making even the most dog-phobic people loyal fans of his.

He was dog aggressive. Eh, well, I don't know if that's the right word for it. He never attacked another dog...When he saw one, he'd jump up in down in place and whine and bark, and snap when they got close enough. He was attacked by a Golden when he was about 20 weeks old (no big injuries - just psychological trauma), and he had been very defensive with them from then on. When given time he came to love all dogs, though.

He lived with another male dog, who was unaltered (my senior English Toy Spaniel, who is now retired from the show ring). He was never bad with him. The only time we had any trouble at all was when Storm'd inhale his food, and wander on over to Bogart's dish. Sometimes they'd have little stare-downs, and sometimes they'd growl a tiny bit. When that happened we'd just seperate them, and after dinnertime they'd be fine again.

Personally, I had FAR more trouble having two female dogs. We had a Shepherd girl (who has since passed away) with our Dachshund / Chihuahua mix, and they had many issues. Neither dog was dog-aggressive outside of the house. They couldn't be fed in the same room, and the Shepherd would snap whenever the Doxie / Chi would come near, so seperation became mandatory.

I think overall, opposite-sex pairs tend to be more peaceful, but same-sex dogs can get along in the same house, too. I know several people with even same-sex dogs of notoriously dog-aggressive breeds (pit bulls, bull terriers, etc) who haven't had any problems. It just takes some work. :)

Thanks for all the information, again, guys :)

Well here's a little fresh info about the male-gender issue:

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Males also tend to more dog aggressive toward other male dogs, even when neutered. "You don't ever put two males together, ever, ever, ever. It would be like raising two stallions. Sooner or later, one is going to tangle with the other," says Doniere, who admits male-male pairings have worked in a few isolated cases, but no pet owner should take the chance. "If you want two dogs, a male and female are the best combination," she says.

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-DogFancy July 2006

Of course, I dislike DogFancy and I think 90% of the stuff they spew is half junk/bunk, but I have to agree with them here :p

I keep mulling over the idea of adding a female Dobe into my household and I'm REALLY warming up to the idea now :D I just adore the look of a cropped Dobe *sighs*

Sorry but my dobie friends and I were EXTREMELY upset over the Doberman Issue of DogFancy. They wrote like they were killers. Ugh it truly upset me. :mad:

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Originally Posted by animal_rescue

Sorry but my dobie friends and I were EXTREMELY upset over the Doberman Issue of DogFancy. They wrote like they were killers. Ugh it truly upset me. :mad:

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The "to crop or not to crop" section really pissed me off, especially the quote "The Doberman is a cropped and docked breed. If you don't like it, get a Coonhound." How ignorant :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by .sarah

The "to crop or not to crop" section really pissed me off, especially the quote "The Doberman is a cropped and docked breed. If you don't like it, get a Coonhound." How ignorant :rolleyes:

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Very true! I know dobie owners with both uncropped/undocked purebred dobies and they look absolutely fine. While I like the look of cropped/docked a mix of either or is absolutely adorable as well.

I think that same sex pairs are fine in any breed -- it just depends on the dogs, their ages, temperments, etc. Visa's breeder never had trouble having more than one male when she bred dobes, and everyone I've talked to has told me that you can't have a multiple female Belgian household, but Visa's breeder usually has several females at a time with no problems.

I'd like to tell you about my sisters Dobie so you can see how gentle they can be.

My sister had a female Dobie who was the greatest dog! She was so much fun. At first I was a little scared because of all the "stories" I'd heard about the breed. But after a few minutes with Lady I was hooked! She came to my sister as a Mother's Day gift, and I have to say she was the greatest gift anyone could have gotten. Lady was 6 mo's old when my sister got her, I had a 6 mo old Cocker/Dalmation, I took my Buttons to meet Lady, after I met her first, and they got along great! They played for hours just like two little kids. They did this whenever I got the chance to go visit my sister. We told people they were cousins lol.

When Lady grew up the vet said she was the tallest female he'd ever seen. He said she was taller than most males. She did turn out to be quite large lol.

Lady could intimidate people something awful. But she was the biggest softy I've ever seen! She would bark at people that came to the door but, let me tell you if they wanted to come in she'd let them lol. I think her size scared people the most.

She was the most loving dog I've ever known, klutzy as all get out, playful, and could make you laugh in a heartbeat. She had this game she played with me that drove my sister nuts, she would grab my ankle and "shake" it lol. She was extremely gentle when she did this too. I never felt her teeth! She also had the greatest, and biggest smile I've seen. Plus, she was THE BIGGEST chicken you could meet. I say that because my sisters son and mine were playing with squirt guns one summer and when Lady saw them, the squirt guns, she made a mad dash for the computer desk and hid under it for an hour! We just couldn't figure that one out, if there was a loud noise she'd head for the computer desk for cover.

Lady also got along with all of my sisters cats. When one of the cats had a litter she would pick one kitten and become it's foster mother. She would clean it, help it go potty and clean up after it. Lady would gently lift it up in her huge mouth and put it on the bed with her. I've never seen a dog do that before and the mother cats never seemed to mind. When she came into season the first time she took one of my nieces' dolls and carried it around like it was her baby. She would lay with it under her chin and clean it like she did the kittens. If you took the doll away she would wine until she got it back. When she went out of season she hid the doll until next time when you'd see her carrying it around.

I agree with most that it depends on the dog itself and how they are handled. I think that Lady was just one of the exceptional Dobies. Lady passed last year and we all miss her terribly. My sister would like another Dobie but she says it's still too early for her, but when she's ready she wants a red one this time.

If you do get a Dobie I hope your lucky enough to get one with a personality like Lady's.

I really can't think of a nicer way to say this other than saying that Dog Fancy article is almost entirely a load of crap. The ear cropping thing really got to me ... the EDUCATOR of the DPCA, our BREED CLUB, making Dobies sound like non-people dogs. That's a wonderful representation to have out there on an already misunderstood breed.

About the male/male pairing thing ... it just doesn't make sense to me. For one thing, does anyone really believe that Dobermans are that very unadaptable and untrainable that you could not make it work? Sure, some dogs are going to have more territorial instincts or whatever, but isn't that why you WORK with your dogs? We have had behavioral problems with dogs over the years, but we have ALWAYS worked through it with our dogs. It just takes time and commitment on the part of the owner, sometimes more than others.

Secondly, I think we all need to take a minute and remember that dogs are DOGS first, and their breed SECOND. All dogs want to please their owners. All dogs are adaptable and trainable. It is up to the OWNER to help them become well behaved and adapted though. You can't expect a kennel to do that for you, you can't expect them to come to you that way. It is entirely your responsibilty, and trust me, with time, care, and hard work, males CAN coexist peacefully.

I would love to hear what animal behaviorists have to say on this issue ...

I've known a couple people who've owned Dobies and they have a very high-drive, meaning they need LOTS of excersize and play time, they always need to be kept busy. A bust Dobe is a good Dobe. They need high socialization and they need obedience training right away when they are puppies. You can find for info at these places:

http://www.puppydogweb.com
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com
http://www.gotdogsonline.com
http://www.google.com
http://www.akc.org

Hope I could help you a little bit...

Thank you all for the info and I do realize that DF spews a lot of bunk. I don't trust a lot of DF's info simply because they don't claim to have a stance on Grey racing but they're obviously AR (and other similar inconsistencies). It's just that the info I'm receiving here is so contradictory to the info I received from another Dobe owner on another forum. She was of the mind-set that male dobes could not coexist peacefully with other males (dobes, to be specific). That is a huge concern of mine because I have another male dog and he is very dominant. Nevertheless, if I were to get a dobe in my current situation, it would have to be an older female.

Animal_rescue and EastJenn, I wasn't really getting the vibe that they were writing about Dobes in a derogatory manner. Can you guys point out the details that you think didn't do the dobe justice? I can see why you don't agree with the crop/dock issue, but I think Theresa Mullen was not incorrect when she said that uncropped ears gave a more "come hither" look, which isn't really the job of a Dobe. After all, they originally were (and still are) protection dogs. Louis Dobermann was famous for his dogs precisely because they were unapproachable and extremely vicious. That's a fact that nobody can deny. Although Dobes have softened down considerably, it's undeniable that they still do maintain a bit of that protective instinct.

I think some of the issue here is that one half of Dobe owners are pushing for friendlier, more social dogs whereas the other half want to retain that strong, protective, introverted attitude. Hehe, sorry guys :D I want to know what I'm getting myself into before I take the leap. I want to know all the aspects of dobe ownership and all the debates and all the controversies :p

I think it'd be awesome if you got a Dobe, Sophie! I've always wanted a working Dobe, too. ;)

My neighbors had a Dobie girl named Inge, she was actually imported from Europe (I think Czech? But I don't remember for sure) and sold to my neighbors as a companion dog from GREAT breeders in Nevada. She was awesome at Schutzhund and earned her 1st title but she didn't enjoy it as much as being in a home setting, so they co-owned her as a 5 year-old with breeding rights. She was extremely friendly, confident, and she definitely knew who her "friends" were. After meeting her once, she was very loyal to you and always welcomed you with a wiggle-butt into her yard & home, she was awesome with kids, too. She adored both our male Rottie and our female Chi. I couldn't imagine her ever going after anyone, until when me & my sister were at home alone and both of our pups were inside, we heard her barking LOUDLY - and, like, right outside of our back door. When we went out, we saw a man running through the side gate and Inge came back to us when we called her. She had either jumped the 6 ft privacy fencing, or found a way through (and, she had never come into our yard before) to go after what must've been a burglar. That, to me, was amazing, and I'll never forget Inge (who passed away 2 years ago).

I think they are awesome dogs, especially if acquired from a good breeder with versatility and a family-friendly Dobe in mind. The well-bred Dobes that I have met definitely attain the breed's protectiveness, but not in an unpredictable way at all. They are super intelligent and they seem to be able to read people. I have met quite a few show Dobes, too... the difference are basically like day & night! Dobies that are from straight show lines are often much more snappy & temperament... not to mention they are often stick thin and unusually shy. The working Dobies that I've met have a MUCH more favorable temperament and they look like how a Doberman Pinscher is supposed to look. As far as same-sex aggression, I definitely think that is based on the individual dogs... I have 2 boys, and they love each other =P

I'm not saying it can't work but, Doberman males are known to be aggressive towards other male dogs. They can be fine for many years, living peacefully and all of a sudden, one gets angry at another over something, they get into a fight (even if it's just a minor fight) and their relationship will never be the same again. They will have many more fights in the future, almost guaranteed. I don't know of one Doberman owner or breeder who would put a male dog into just an average family home with another male just because its risky. Although, it also depends on the owner's experience. A friend of mine who breeds Dobes will put a male into a home with another male ONLY if the home has very experienced owners and would be able to handle a fight properly should it occur. She does not do this often though. People do have different opinions on this topic but I personally would never risk it, most Dobe owners that I know feel the same way...

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Originally Posted by Giselle

Animal_rescue and EastJenn, I wasn't really getting the vibe that they were writing about Dobes in a derogatory manner. Can you guys point out the details that you think didn't do the dobe justice? I can see why you don't agree with the crop/dock issue, but I think Theresa Mullen was not incorrect when she said that uncropped ears gave a more "come hither" look, which isn't really the job of a Dobe. After all, they originally were (and still are) protection dogs. Louis Dobermann was famous for his dogs precisely because they were unapproachable and extremely vicious. That's a fact that nobody can deny. Although Dobes have softened down considerably, it's undeniable that they still do maintain a bit of that protective instinct.

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Here's the big issue I have with the cropping section of the article -- Yes, Dobermans were originally bred to be protection dogs. However, many today aren't used for protection. Just like Rotties were once used as Roman herding dogs and Saint Bernards were once used as hospice dogs. Not so much the case today, in an ordinary household.

Uncropped ears may make a Dobie seem more approachable ... but really, what is wrong with that? When we selected our breeder, we chose one we knew would breed for sound temperment. Her dogs all love people. My dog loves people. I don't want people to be afraid of him. To me, that is not his job. His job is to be my friend and companion, plain and simple.

When you start to get into this Doberman=mean and protective mind set, you end up going down this huge slippery slope. Because that is what most people feel, there is only ONE insurance company in town who will insure our house (for quite a price, I might add). Because violent is how most people see Dobermans, I must pay $250 to register my dog instead of the usual $5 the city asks, although he has done nothing wrong. We will be moving in about a year, and we will most likely have to buy a house because the area we are moving to does not have any divisions that will rent to owners with Dobermans. Period. Just because of his breed. Strangers grab their kids and head the other direction sometimes when I walk him. People constantly ask me why I would want to keep an animal that is the equivilant of having a loaded gun, and what I will do when he one day "turns" on me.

It seems to me that the kind of information in that particular section of the article just furthers the propaganda that Dobermans are untrustworthy, unfriendly, vicious and dangerous. BSL 1, Dobies 0.