My XBF, my 2 year olds dad, says that I should invest in a shock collar, because of Zoe's rambutus (sp?) behavior. What do you think of shock collars? Do they work? Are they cruel?
Could really use your viewpoints or your experiences with them.
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My XBF, my 2 year olds dad, says that I should invest in a shock collar, because of Zoe's rambutus (sp?) behavior. What do you think of shock collars? Do they work? Are they cruel?
Could really use your viewpoints or your experiences with them.
My dad and my aunt used a shock collar on our Rottweiler, Chyna, and it didn't do a damn bit of a good.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4theloveofzoe
Is Zoe a pup? He needs to remember that a LOT of dogs can act that way their whole life with or without regard to breed. My dads dachshund will be four and STILL acts like that. My stepmothers Rottweiler/German Shep mix just turned six and also acts very rambunctious.
I just got a citronella colar. My friend said it worked wonders on her dog. And it's HUMANE.
THanks!
Please don't use a shock collar. I still have nightmares about watching my grandpa use them on his hunting dogs to keep them from trying to climb out of the pen when I was very young. I will never get the sound of agony they made out of my head.
Consistent discipline is the key- assertive, calm correction. I do not know the details of the problem areas, but I assure you, there is a humane way to curb any bad behavior. Remember that a large-breed dog will take as much as three years to fully train.
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Originally Posted by 4theloveofzoe
15 minutes training a day will solve and issues Zoe may have and it's a lot kinder than using a shock collar... those things hurt.:(
I'm sorry that some people have had bad experiences with shock collars. When used properly, they can serve a purpose.
They need to be set to the lightest possible amount of shock before even trying them. At this level the shock will feel like a static shock. Usually that is as much as a dog will need, and will only need it a couple of times to control behavior. They should not be used continuously.
I have a dog that felt he had to bark all the time while I was at work. I tried everything I could, but I couldn't be there everyday. And this is a stubborn dog. I finally put a shock collar on him when I was home. When he barked without reason, he got a reminder (light shock) and a yell from me. After three or four times, he got the message....until the next day. Then it only took once. After that, I would put the collar on, but without the battery. He hasn't barked during the day without reason since. He no longer needs the collar at all.
I used it on another dog (foster) and had the same results.
I don't recommend them for every problem dog. They have to be used very carefully and briefly for only certain dogs. Like a lot of other things, it's a training tool.
A two year old still is a puppy. Besides needing a lot of exercise, they need to be taught basic commands.
Have you been able to teach her sit, stay, down, quiet?
I agree, I'm not saying that using shock collars isn't bad in some ways but when used they usually work right away. To tell the truth I haven't actually seen one used but I've heard that they work almost right away, so it shouldn't take too long to cure the rambunctious dog. Besides, even if you feel that the collar isn't going to do anything, you don't have to keep using it. I already tried training my dog but when he goes outside he still goes crazy barking at everything so we are going to try the shock collar. However, if you feel that the shock collar is inhumane, don't use it, this is just my opinion. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by mruffruff
they can work even when not worn!! my friend has 6 very rambunctious dogs and all she has to do is show them the collar and they listen to whatever she says!! I have never used one never had to! so I realy dont know how they work! But i would imagine that they are like anything else, as longa s used properly they are okay!JMO! :)
I am sorry, I cannot agree. Shocking a dog- even to the equivalent of an static charge- is cruel. Dogs misbehave due to what people have either done to them or let them get away with. Shocking a dog with violence in its background is the most inhumane thing I can imagine- if you can't handle the dog, give it to someone who can. But shocking a dog because you are too lazy to train it properly is even worse.
I totally agree... perhaps someone can explain to me why they would choose causing pain to a animal, rather than proper training.... the word barbaric springs to mind.:mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by jennawing
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by jennawing
Quote:
Originally Posted by jennawing
Therein lies the problem. Dogs are not born knowing the difference between right and wrong. As their owners it is our obligation to teach them, and pain and negative reinforcement really isn't the way to go about it. If someone came into my home and scruffed my dog like has been described as being done to this dog, I would scruff them and show them the door. Real training takes times and patience. My dogs have never seen a shock collar, pinch collar, choker, or any form of abuse, hitting, or yelling, yet they both behave how I want them to and if they don't I spend my time teaching them what is expected, not yelling at them when they do it wrong. If a dog is too full of energy, that is because the owners aren't providing it with enough exercise and a job to do to burn off the excess energy. That is not the dog's fault and he should not be punished beause his owners don't want to take the time needed to exercise the dog. They aren't toys, they are living beings and it is OUR responsibility to train them how we expect them to behave for us. If a person can't do better than resorting to painful stimuli and negative reinforcement, they either need to find the help of a professional to show them how to train their dog properly, or they need to find that dog a new home with someone who will. Just because they make things like shock collars, doesn't mean it's in the dog's best interests.
When every other path has been followed and the dog is still not responding, a static shock to get their attention is not cruel, nor is it abuse. Continuous use would be.
The dog I used the collar on was a 10 year old stray that the shelter felt would never find a home. He was in poor shape when I got him and had a bad habit of jumping 6 foot fences. I finally got him healthy, housetrained, contained and accepting of people. I was his last hope and the neighbor next door was threatening his existence. This was a last ditch effort. And I don't feel guilty about using it in this instance. I have not needed it on the other three dogs I have had.
In a perfect world, the shock collar would never be necessary. Unfortunately I live in the real world. I've learned to be less judgmental as I've gotten older. And I never say "Never".
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Originally Posted by mruffruff
Well said. Sometimes when you adopt an older dog from the shelter, you don't have the option of 'not letting them get away with their behavior.' When you have an older dog that misbehaves, and you try every possible route, then what? Some people take them back to the shelters. That is what happened with my Roscoe, he has behavioral problems and was taken back to the shelter by his last owner because they didn't want to have to deal with it. I tell you right now, we are going through the process of trying everything we can to get him to behave, but if worst comes to worst I would consider a shock collar. I would never take him back. I use a prong collar on him now for training (recommended by my trainer). I don't think that it's cruel at all, and it has helped more than you can imagine. When we first got him, I couldn't take him for walks along because he pulled me so hard he would drag me along (and yes, I did fall once or twice and he kept going, dragging me literally). Now, after basic training and the use of the prong, he heels by my side and is a pleasure to walk. Had that collar not been recommended to me by a trainer, I would have never bought it. It looks cruel. But now he can get the exercise he needs. Is that cruel?
Rule of thumb should be if you won't use it on a 2 year old child you don't use it on your dog plain and simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by mruffruff
Training usingf positve reinforcement may take longer but works better.
I HATE shock collars and never recommend them. When I started training Dixie for hunting, those who had been doing it and were considered pros recommended I use a shock collar to train her. I was told that she would never be much of a hunter unless I did. I refused and instead worked her using positive reinforcement and clicker training. It may of taken a bit longer (not much) than shocking her but if you could see her hunting and the love she has for it, it was worth the extra time. She now has her Senior Hunter Title! :D Many of the dogs trained using collars have fear built in and it shows. :(
I believe shock collars are the lazy persons way out of training positively.
So, how then should I have gotten my 93 lb. german shepherd to walk by my side and not run away without coming home, nor pulling my arm out of it's socket? I would not use a prong on a 2 year old, but I did on my dog, under my trainer's supervision, and it worked extremely well. Perhaps positive reinforcement would have worked eventually, I suppose in the meantime I would just not give him walks and exercise. Then I would have been a bad doggie parent for not giving him exercise. Um, ok......Quote:
Originally Posted by flip195
15 mins a day sit heel work, in an enclosed area,Quote:
Originally Posted by JenBKR
until he got it right,
make the dog sit when he does praise reward,
Take one step with the heel command and sit again & reward.
Gradually increase the steps taking always start and finish with sit.
start and end training with a game... make it fun... never work more than 15 mins at a time.
German shepherd should pick it up in about a week of 15 min sessions max.
Tried that, all last summer. Pretty much exactly as you put it (I did a lot of reseach). He was already 4 when we got him, and not at all well behaved. I worked with him a ton in the back yard. I even used treats (or tried, he has absolutely no interest in the treats when we are outside). Tons of praise, about 15-20 mins per day for 3-4 months. It did nothing. At the end of summer, I had to take him the the vet. I opened my car door, holding onto his leash. He jumped out of my door and took off - with me in tow. I ripped my jeans, scraped my face. At least I held on to him, because he has taken off before and he can be difficult to track down. I went in to the vet's office and asked for a recommendation for a trainer. Roscoe went through 8 weeks of training with a prong and graduated first in his class.Quote:
Originally Posted by flip195
I know I went off of the topic of shock collars, but I think that the 'don't use something you wouldn't use on a two year old child' was not good advice (what 2-year old weighs 93 lbs? :p ). And you cannot generalize the breed, especially considering he's a mix. So what would you have done? Work with him another 3 months and hope for the best? Or take him back to the shelter? Sorry, but neither was an option.
EDIT: I should also mention that distractions made it extremely difficult to do the work you mentioned. He always wanted to chase the birds and bunnies, bark at cars, etc. Perhaps anything more about this should be said through PM, as I do not wish to further hijack this thread.
OK, just one more thing.....I personally would not put a collar and leash on a two year old either, so should we not even use those? :p
So is he toy driven rather than food driven ?Quote:
Originally Posted by JenBKR
no , but i personally have never strapped a dog into a buggy either :p
and folks have been know to use harnesses and wrist straps on kids soooooo lol
I have no idea what you mean by toy driven rather than food driven :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by flip195
And sorry, but your strapping a dog into a buggy analogy only furthers my point that you should not compare a two-year-old to a dog :p
And yes, people do use harnesses and straps on children, but I have yet to see one used around a child's neck ;)
EDIT: As I said before, please direct all other comments to me via PM, as we have done enough hijacking of this thread. I apologize to the poster who began this thread, I promise not to post here again unless it is about shock collars! I just get so upset when people refuse to believe that their way may not be right for everyone.
Just to clarify for anyone else who may be confused about what toy driven means.... Instead of working for food as an incentive to do what you want it to do, you use a favorite toy that is irresitable to the dog. Not all dogs have a favorite toy that they would rather have than food.Quote:
Originally Posted by JenBKR
My Dusty loves frisbee so I use that as his reward when he does what I ask him. I use his frisbee as reward for shaping wanted behaviors and for reinforcing behaviors he already knows. Before I go into a show ring (obedience) I pump him up with his frisbee and always have it waiting close by for when we exit the ring! Works better for him than food! My Dixie on the other hand will do anything for food and could care less about a toy! I hate to see a dog that acts like obedience training is the worst thing in the world. It shows me the owner doesn't know their dog well enough to figure out how to make obedience training fun!
Ok, thank you for clarifying that for me :) Roscoe likes his toys, but I'm not so sure that would work either. We are about to go to intermediate training with him, to work on distractions. I should mention that the treats seem to work when we are inside at training class, but when we are outside he has no interest (especially on walks).
This indicates to me that he is NOT ready to move on. Treats should be gradually faded after the dog understands what you are asking it to do so that it will gladly do what is asked even if there is no treat involved. Until the dog can do what you ask at least every two or three times without a treat, it is not ready to advance. Moving outside where there are more distractions only makes it worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by JenBKR
As a trainer, the number one frustration that I have with owners is moving on without the dog fully understanding what you are asking it to do. It is repetition, repetition and more repetition which most handlers find boring so they force the dog forward when they really should be starting over with fundamentals. Don't be in a hurry to advance. Make sure you have a solid basic foundation before building anything more complex into the mix. You will be glad in the long run that you did! :D
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Originally Posted by Dixieland Dancer
He is getting pretty weaned off of the treats during lots of basic commands. Actually, him and one other dog in his basic class were the only ones approved to move to the intermediate class. We had planned to take him for the spring class, but I think we are going to have to wait for either the summer or fall class anyway because of my volunteer schedule conflicts. ;)
Ok, here's my take on shock collars. If the dog is going to die or wear shock collar - I'd recommend the collar just to try and SAVE THE DOG'S LIFE in the short term, while working on the dog using positve training methods for the long term. What qualifies as saving the dog's life? The dog runs and chases cars.... chase car = get run over = death. If your dog does not have a firm grasp on stay or come (and you're too moronic to keep the dog leashed when outside), use the collar when he's somewhere near cars until you are able to get a consistent come or stay... and the training for come or stay is to be done WITHOUT the collar and using all positive training methods. It won't happen opvernight - training requires patience, timing, and consistency.
All I've seen with shock collars on a friendly, excitable dog is that they turn the dog agressive towards what the dog was trying to play with. So if she knocks over your daughter in what she deems as play, if you were to go shock her, she'll think your daughter hurt her, and not connect that HER jumping prompted YOU to push a little button that delivered a "pulse". If you deliver a shock a half dozen times as she attempted to play with your daughter, she will then start snarling and growling at your daughter the next time your daughter comes near because she associated the shock with YOUR DAUGHTER, not HER OWN actions.
One thing I've learned over years of being on various dog forums is that dog people are very passionate about the use/nonuse of shock collars and prong collars. If you use a shock collar you must make sure that the dog realizes he is self-correcting rather than have him associate the "pulse" coming from you or a child.
I use a remote citronella collar to keep my standard poodle's high prey drive in check when she is in the yard with my oversized toy poodle. It works for us. When she has the collar on, she is very well behaved. I don't have to click the citronella at all. If she starts to get overrambunctious, click the warning button and she calms immediately.
Would I shock my beloved girls? Not on your life. But I couldn't condemn anyone from using one as long as they were educated about the collar.
Okaaaay.... You ladies/gentlemen... have confused me even more. :confused:
Needless to say, I'm going next week to buy her something called
The Gentle Leader
No comment on collars - but gotta say absolutely love picture of baby girl and puppy! Too sweet!
Im probably gonna get some nasty replies for this....but since Ive asked about my JRT, Snickers, weve bought him one, and it works very well! he wore it for two days, and now i only put it on if he gets outta hand. Now, when I pick it up, hell stop what hes doing and roll over on his back...to show me he knows im in charge. It doesnt have to be worn constantly after hes learned his lesson. another good one, and ive GOT to find one, is to buy a whistle that mimicks the warning sound before the static shock. I believe that it isnt something Id use on most dogs, or constantly, but some circumstances require extreme measures. :(
Edit: We also use the NILIF program with both of our dogs....the collar is not a training method as much as a suppliment.
I currently have a 16 mo old ESS up at a field trainer's kennel - and he has him on a shock collar at the lowest setting -- and only to 'break' concentration and have him follow a command i.e. COME! The boy now skeddadles right back when he hears come no matter what he's doing! He can not and will not be able to hunt as part of the 'team' unless he follows commands - it wouldn't be safe for him.
DH and I had considered using one before he went to field camp -- and nixed the idea because used improperly you will ruin a dog.
If you need to step up to a shock collar then have someone who knows how to properly use it train him. Try other methods first! Cowboy knows what the commands mean - it was just too darn interested in whatever he was chasing or sniffing to comply.