Religious question for Popcornbird

I in no way want this to turn into a bashing of any religion, I'm just trying to understand a little better.....again....yet....

In Afghanistan a guy has been sentenced to death because he converted from Islam to Christianity. From what I've learned here from you, Pops, is that Islam and Christianity are SO close in their beliefs that I really don't see the big deal in this conversion. But in Christianity, we have the Ten Commandments, which one of them is "Thou shalt not kill." It doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill unless you leave the Christian faith, then watch out, you're one dead piece of meat." ! Are these just the radical muslims at it again or is this really a doctrine that Muslims live by?

Unfortunately, I am well aware that quite often through history people have been killed in the name of religion - especially in the name of Christianity. I see this as just another example of that and I am in no way condemning all Muslims or anything like that. I'm just starting to wonder....death/killing seems to be the answer for so many Muslims - like in the case of the Danish cartoons their first reaction was kill 'em!

I can't believe this is really a doctrine of the Muslim faith and I do believe that it is just another example of the radical side of this religion. Unfortunately the sane, calm, reasonable side of the religion doesn't get much press, which leads me there to you, Pops, since I see you as a great voice for the sane, calm reasonable side of Islam. :)

Good question! I have wondered the same thing myself but had no one to ask. I don't understand the killing that goes on in the name of religion either. Maybe Pops can explaine it to us so that we can better understand.

Good question. Looking forward to the explanation for this one. :)

The muslim faith has gotten a bad name lately. Ironically, it is one of the most PEACEFUL religions on the planet. :eek: :cool: However, just like Christianity, some extremist of the faith give it a bad representation. Christianity we have sects that believe in letting snakes bite them and drink poison during their services. They believe if God allows them to "survive" then they are good chrisitians. :eek: Do ALL Christians practice or believe this to be true even though the scripture they follow can be pointed out in the bible?
It is similar to the Muslim religion. They have extremist who's view ONLY match a very small segment of the muslim believe that 99% of other Muslims do NOT believe nor follow in. 99% of Christians don't let snakes bite them during church services that I know of.
Even amongst other Muslims this practice of "suicide bombing" or killing is looked down upon and NOT supported. Their true religion does NOT involve the killing of other people. A true muslim does NOT believe in the hurting or maiming of another person. You are right in that their religion does coincide with many christianity doctrine who preaches the same.
Muslims do believe in Jesus. However, they don't believe he was the "chosen one". They believe that "Mohamed" was the true "child" of God or Allah. I believe Mohamed roamed earth earlier than Jesus did. Our christian bible does not mention Mohamed much nor does it base it's believe system that he was the "chosen one". The Muslim religion instead does. So essentially, the Muslim and Christianity faith just differs on their belief of who the real "Messiah" is and the name of their God. Allah is theirs while God is Christianity's. Jewish people are also similar to muslim in this way as well.
The killing of the cartoonist is more of a "crowd" control issue than religious belief. Yes it was Muslim's there protesting but the crowd got out of control. That is how many of these people we here about getting killed by muslims is by uncontained crowd control at a protest. The suicide bombing part is more of a cultural connection nowadays than religious. It would be more religious if the entire religion supported such acts. However, it falls more along the lines of cultural/politics for suicide bombings.
The cartoon was offensive because the Muslims do NOT believe that Mohamed should be shown in a ridicule such manner. The cartoons published showed Mohamed in "caricature" which is extremely offensive and is a BIG NO-NO or tabu in their religion. We in america are used to having our President caricaturized and don't think anything about how truly offensive that can be. Political cartoons are extremely offensive in their views at times but we believe in the freedom of speech. Other countries of the world it doesn't work that way. They respect their leaders be it religious or political.
Please don't assume Muslim are raised or believe in killing other people to get their points across. It just isn't the truth. They are a truly peaceful religion who have a few bad apples within it. It is more of a cultural issue that has gotten out of control than anything God or Allah has wanted. ;)

I think its afaganniy constiution not Muslim faith.

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Originally Posted by Corinna

I think its afaganniy constiution not Muslim faith.

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It is Shariah/Sharia (you'll see various spellings in different news sources)... basically, a system of civil law based on the Koran and other muslim holy writings (or, at least, based on the Afghani cleric's interpretations of parts of those books). The afghani constitution actually now contains a lot of tripe about religious freedom, which is pretty much soundly negated by also embracing a 'muslim' law that says anyone who rejects Islam has offended Allah and should be put to death.

I am no expert on any of this but from my view it is some countries using the religion to control the populas, they can dictate all sorts of things and keep the women from voting them out by the use of religion.

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Originally Posted by caseysmom

I am no expert on any of this but from my view it is some countries using the religion to control the populas, they can dictate all sorts of things and keep the women from voting them out by the use of religion.

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Some countries? Just out of curiousity, which countries with predominately Islamic law do you consider to be the ones that do NOT subjugate women?



(Of course,'subjugation' is based on western ideals of gender roles, but I'm still interested in hearing...)

Here's an update on that man:

An Afghan man threatened with execution because he converted from Islam to Christianity is expected "to be released in the coming days," an official says.

I started a thread on this when I heard that.

http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?t=101453

Got very few replies. Figured my thread was politically incorrect. :rolleyes: It is abhorrent to me and I really wish someone could explain why converting to a new religion should be punishable by death. Human rights anyone? Freedom of speech/thought/conscience anyone? Scary!

Pam,

I saw this thread and replied then I saw yours...it had nothing to do with your politically correctness.... :D

I just watched channel 2 news and it looks like the man will hopefully
be released based on Afghanistan law that states their is
freedom of religion.
The news stated that Islamic Law states Conversion is punishable by death,
thus the conflict.

Yes, they've been saying that they were trying to cave into pressure by releasing him as 'insane' and therefore incompentent to stand trial, but the clerics are still openly advocating a lynch-mob waiting to "tear him to pieces" as soon as he is on the streets. Right now, being turned loose in Afghanistan might be the worst possible thing for him, and the best thing for the people wanting to try him. All their 'friends' in the U.S., Europe, and other places will have been pacified that they upheld religious freedom, and the clerics will be satisfied that he is dead and has been made an example.

Gosh, I want to CRY!!! No Debbie, you haven't done anything wrong :D, but I typed a HUGE, long reply, and when I clicked on post, I got 'logged out' and it never went through. I clicked on back, and my message was gone. UGH!!!! I sooooooo want to cry right now.

'sigh'

My fingers are tired. Patience, patience. I will try to type it up again, but not now. Maybe later tonight. Maybe tomorrow. I need to go eat dinner, and I'm pretty upset about my reply not going through right now.
Wah. :(:(:(:(:(

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Originally Posted by popcornbird

Gosh, I want to CRY!!! No Debbie, you haven't done anything wrong :D, but I typed a HUGE, long reply, and when I clicked on post, I got 'logged out' and it never went through. I clicked on back, and my message was gone. UGH!!!! I sooooooo want to cry right now.

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Whew! When I first read the "I want to CRY!!!" I thought I really screwed up in how i asked this - whew! :) Sometimes I come out and ask questions that might not come out right so I'm always worried how they'll be taken by the questionee - glad that wasn't the case here. :)

Pam, sorry, I didn't see your post. I usually don't read a lot of the Dog House posts so that's probably why I missed it. ;)

No hurry, Pops. I'm just sorry your post was gone because I know you put a lot of time and thought into it, which is why I respect your opinion on all this.

That's a bummer that your post got logged out. You are the best spokesperson for Islam that I've ever encountered. If people knew you they would realize what your faith is REALLY all about. Too bad they don't let women be imams.

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Originally Posted by smokey the elder

Too bad they don't let women be imams.

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Still didn't get a chance to sit down and type all over again, but quickly, I did want to respond to this. No way would I want to be an imam. :eek::o LOL! That's like a woman pope of a woman priest. It just doesn't happen. Though men and women are equal before God, that doesn't mean they don't have different roles in society, in certain issues. This is one of them. Though there are women scholars, knowledgable women that people ask religious questions from, an imam is just different. That's a man's role, and as there have never been women popes or priests, there won't be women imams either. I don't get why its looked down upon in Islam, but in Christianity, if men take care of a particular 'role', its okay. :confused: Some roles are for men and its WEIRD for women to take that role, and some roles are for women and its WEIRD for a man to take that role. Imagine a woman growing a beard, or a man giving birth to a child. There ARE women who have hormonal issues and can grow a beard, but if she let's it grow, everyone would think she's awfully strange...because, that's just a man thing. Weird comparison, I know, but I'd rather leave some things to the men and keep some things to the women with the men out of it. :D :p

Oh PCB I don't think saying that we wish you could become an Iman is saying Islam is chauvinistic. I wish the pope could be a women, heck I think if women lead nations there would be a lot more peace on earth.

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Originally Posted by caseysmom

Oh PCB I don't think saying that we wish you could become an Iman is saying Islam is chauvinistic. I wish the pope could be a women, heck I think if women lead nations there would be a lot more peace on earth.

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I wish that were true, but I lived for a year in an all-women dorm in college, and I can tell you that women can be meaner, nastier, and more back-biting and vicious in nature than any guys I have met. Not the women of Pet Talk, of course ...

Perhaps we wish Popcornbird could be a world-recognized leader as a teacher of peace.

Oh Karen, you reminded me of all the drama with my teenage daughter...oh maybe never mind :D

Centuries ago...Jews being tortured to death for refusing to convert to Christianity...the Crusades that did much the same, spreading Christianity through Europe...and yes, some Muslim and other religious laws that demand death as punishment...

It just seems to me that a few radicals will twist religious words to justify their own ends.

And it seems pointless, to me, to single out a religion that is doing such things right now as "unique".

The human race is like a box of chocolates - there are a few nuts in there, and it's hard to tell where they are!

(Sorry Forrest)

Catty1

I seriously doubt there would be more peace on earth if there were all female leaders.

For example:

Elizabeth of Russia
Catherine I
Catherine the Great
Queen Elizabeth I
Golde Meir
Queen Victoria

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Originally Posted by caseysmom

Pam,

I saw this thread and replied then I saw yours...it had nothing to do with your politically correctness.... :D

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:) No problem Caseysmom. :) My question is whether or not this is Islam doctrine. If it is a few nut cases that's one thing, because every religion has a few of those. :rolleyes: If this is part of their doctrine that is something else.

PCB, I respect your philosophy about defined roles for men and women, but I must respectfully disagree. (Maybe this is why I'm Pagan and not Christian or Muslim.) "Imam" was intended as a symbol for a highly respected individual of the community. On the radio show 51 Percent they had a bunch of women Islamic scholars on that had some very interesting things about theology from a women's point of view.

CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapc....ap/index.html

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Originally Posted by KYS

CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapc....ap/index.html

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Well if this is correct, and I believe it probably is, we have our answer in these quotes....

"Rejecting Islam is insulting God. We will not allow God to be humiliated. This man must die," said cleric Abdul Raoulf, who is considered a moderate and was jailed three times for opposing the Taliban before the hard-line regime was ousted in 2001.

And this cleric is considered a moderate? He won't allow God to be humilated? Can God not take care of himself? It seems to me God has been doing that since way before this man, or anyone for that matter, ever was born. This is a message of hate devised in the heart of man. Nothing could be further from the heart of God than the shedding of innocent blood.

"We are a small country and we welcome the help the outside world is giving us. But please don't interfere in this issue," Nasri said. "We are Muslims and these are our beliefs. This is much more important to us than all the aid the world has given us."

Afghanistan's constitution is based on Sharia law, which is interpreted by many Muslims to require that any Muslim who rejects Islam be sentenced to death.

While parts of the Afghan constitution are based in Sharia,it also acknowledges the United Nations Declaration on Human Rights. Part of the UN declaration is freedom of religion, so in following sharia law as strictly as they are, they are violation thier constitution. (Unfortunately, most of their judges are muslim Imams)

Chris, thanks for the CNN link.I think this quote from the article speaks
volumes about this country & their so-called democracy.


"But Said Mirhossain Nasri, the top cleric at Hossainia Mosque, one of the largest Shiite places of worship in Kabul, said Rahman must not be allowed to leave the country.

"If he is allowed to live in the West, then others will claim to be Christian so they can, too," he said. "We must set an example. ... He must be hanged."

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Originally Posted by popcornbird

That's a man's role, and as there have never been women popes or priests,

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Not to change the topic of the thread, but just a point of history that is debated. Was there a female Pope?

Pope Joan?

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Originally Posted by Cincy'sMom

Not to change the topic of the thread, but just a point of history that is debated. Was there a female Pope?

Pope Joan?

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NO< there has never been a female Pope and thier never should be according to the Catholic religion. I agree w/pcb: certain roles are for men and others are for women.

It seems to me that pretty much all spiritual doctrines claim that death will come to those who desert the 'true' faith, whatever it might be. The difference here is that the people practicing the religion are the ones that want to carry out God's justice for Him. To me, that seems like they are over-reaching a bit and taking on a bit more responsibility than God assigned them. I may be totally misinformed about Islam, but I thought that Allah was the all-powerful, all-knowing distributor of justice and wisdom, not the men who happen to worship Him.

Our destination after our life ends here is determined by our decisions, actions, beliefs, etc. I think that the one that converted will have more peace with the situation and the results than will the clerics calling for his demise. The convert (I'm sorry, I don't remember his name) is confident enough in his new faith to face death head-on, and the clerics of Islam that are calling for his death seem to me to feel threatened by the introduction of a new religion in 'their' country. If they are so confident in their understanding of Allah and what He would have them to do, why do they feel so threatened by one convert? Why not just let him go his own way (the wrong way, according to Islam) and suffer his own punishment in his own time?

I happen to practice Christianity, and am therefore most familiar with it; if you look at the big picture, Christianity teaches that all those who do not acknowledge Christ will go to an eternity of punishment in Hell (e.g. eternal death) while those who maintain purity of faith, motives, and action will inherit the eternal life in Heaven (obviously, since no one is perfect, we accept that Christ was the sacrificial atonement for the world's sins, and our mistakes will be covered by that sacrifice, etc. etc.) I have never thought about killing someone for converting to Islam from Christianity! I think that is ludicrous! God created men with free will; choice of religion is a free-will kind of choice.

We all think we are right, or we wouldn't think that way. We try to convince others that our way is right; that is how converts from or to any religion come about. Threatening death to someone is not the best way to change their mind, at least it doesn't seem that way to me.