White Shepherds

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Originally Posted by jackfrost

HD does not run rampant, there are many other breeds ahead of GSD's in that catagory about 40 of them or so and I don't think any other breed is as highly tested I think maybe Retrievers have the same number or so tested thru OFA, the rest aren't even close.

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OFA is not reliable when trying to decide which breeds have HD more than others. I know if my dog got her X-rays done and the vet determined they would most likely come back OFA Dysplastic, I sure as heck wouldn't pay the money to send them in. The reason 99.9% of OFA x-rays that don't come back with numbers say the dog is only dysplatic in one hip is NOT just because hip dysplasia in one hip is more common -- it's because OFA looks at the hip joints TOGETHER rather than seperatly and grades them as such. If the other hip is truly in excellent shape, perhaps your grade as a whole may be better. Pennhipp is a better source for information as the vets must send the results in -- it is illegal if they don't. If you check with Pennhipp or ask your vet, I can guarantee you that the GSD is in the top 5 for hip dysplasia. We don't get alot of GSDs at the shop, and I'd say that GSDs make up the majority of dysplastic dogs we get.

I will also guarantee you that because there are less American white shepherd breeders than German shepherd breeders, and the American white shepherd breed was started in the day and age when we were more informed about health and temperament issues, that German shepherds are more likely to be dysplastic. More breeders, more health problems. White shepherds are also easier to show than GSDs -- if you look at pictures of many of them, they have ear placements and such that would never be acceptable in the GSD ring. Good reason to breed more for health and temperament, less for show. Belgians are the same way. Very easy breed to show as long as you have the temperament. Less of them, less to compete against.

It seems silly to me that people think just because they are breeding colours together, there is a limited gene pool. What if people were breeding black to black? Would there be a limited gene pool then? Of course not. If I bred strictly groenendael to groenendael, would I have a limited gene pool? No...And I'll bet you that there are more white GSDs registered with AKC and CKC than there are groenendael. Lines are one thing -- certain lines can be hard to get away from. But dogs in certain lines aren't always related, nor do lines always stay the same.

Every time I read someone saying that White Shepherd Breeders don't health test and so forth I laugh. I also laugh when people say they can not do the same as a GSD. Everything a GSD can do a WSD can do. If people think otherwise then they are living in teh dark ages and refuse to open their eyes to the facts. Color does not make the dog. Breeding does. It is that simple. I have been asked on other boards to provided proof that their are whites as police dogs, Sch. dogs, Service dogs and so forth. When I do the answer is always the same from the people who beleive the wives tales. "That dogs is a fluke. That is the only reason they are like that." It is halarious. If you don't like the white color fine. Don't own one. But don't lie about them and spread false info just because you don't like them. You don't judge people based on their color so why do it for dogs when all the wives tales have been proven false with Gentic testing. Also as for the health testing I have found that White Shepherd breeders are a lot more open about what is in their lines and a lot more active in trying to correct what is in their lines then the majority of GSD breeders. Great example of this is the White Shepherd Genetics Progect:

http://www.wsgenetics.org/

Which I am a proud participating member of. Yes there are bad breeders out there that don't do any testing. But guess what, there are a ton more BYB breeders in GSD's then there is in WS's. How do I know this? Common sense. There are WAY more GSD's then WS's. Here are facts. White Shepehrds are just as healthy as GSD's, White Shepherds can do everything a GSD can, White Shepherds have just as much of a chance of having genetic problems as a GSD no more or less. This is fact. Anyone who believes other wise is still living in teh dark ages of rumour before genetic testing. Like I said before. Color doesn't make the dog. Breeding does.
Nicole

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Originally Posted by NicoleLJ

Every time I read someone saying that White Shepherd Breeders don't health test and so forth I laugh. I also laugh when people say they can not do the same as a GSD. Everything a GSD can do a WSD can do. If people think otherwise then they are living in teh dark ages and refuse to open their eyes to the facts. Color does not make the dog. Breeding does. It is that simple. I have been asked on other boards to provided proof that their are whites as police dogs, Sch. dogs, Service dogs and so forth. When I do the answer is always the same from the people who beleive the wives tales. "That dogs is a fluke. That is the only reason they are like that." It is halarious. If you don't like the white color fine. Don't own one. But don't lie about them and spread false info just because you don't like them. You don't judge people based on their color so why do it for dogs when all the wives tales have been proven false with Gentic testing. Also as for the health testing I have found that White Shepherd breeders are a lot more open about what is in their lines and a lot more active in trying to correct what is in their lines then the majority of GSD breeders. Great example of this is the White Shepherd Genetics Progect:

http://www.wsgenetics.org/

Which I am a proud participating member of. Yes there are bad breeders out there that don't do any testing. But guess what, there are a ton more BYB breeders in GSD's then there is in WS's. How do I know this? Common sense. There are WAY more GSD's then WS's. Here are facts. White Shepehrds are just as healthy as GSD's, White Shepherds can do everything a GSD can, White Shepherds have just as much of a chance of having genetic problems as a GSD no more or less. This is fact. Anyone who believes other wise is still living in teh dark ages of rumour before genetic testing. Like I said before. Color doesn't make the dog. Breeding does.
Nicole

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Great post Nicole

yeah, you're proof, a handful of dogs, the same exact dogs on two different sites, most from over 10 years ago, a lot from over 20 years ago. If that's all you can show, and its defineatly more than most people that have been working and training dogs in the past 30 years and you're proud of it, fine, but you shouldn't be spreading lies.

Ok, I won't take OFA's word for it, I'll just take it on your word from your "shop" on the HD. I"m sure you've seen many more.

as for people breeding just blacks, yes, they are ending up with a smaller gene pool, but not as small as the whites by far cause Blacks aren't selected against like the whites, not for the past 100 years or so, give or take. But breeding for color in not a good practice.

The big big big difference is that blacks aren't or haven't been selected against. They do show up regularly in GSD litters. Very very very few whites actually will show up in a a GSD litter by someone that isn't breeding specifically for whites. Another big big difference, I could put pages of black GSD's that just in the past year that have proven themselves in working venues, a much better showing than a handful from the past 30 years of whites.

In fact i've seen more ACD's, Corgi's and JRT's working than White GSD's over the years. Kinda says something to me.

And Nicole, if your dogs can do everything, PROVE IT, work your dogs, don't just say it. If you think i'm picking on you cause you have white dogs, i could care less, I"ve had it in with many GSD breeders that talk a lot of talk, but prove absolutely nothing. Are any of your dogs titled? I can see by your site they are not. Have you even produced any dogs that have gone on to do any work? have you even had any litters to be claiming these things?

The burden of proof really isn't on me, I don't have to prove a negative. you may love your dogs etc, but to claim they can do anything, when in fact they aren't doing anything is a lie. I gotta say, i've looked around on quite a few WGSD breeder websites and they are all the same. Words words words, and more words, accompanied by some claims and zero proof. No tests, no titles, no nothing. Talk is cheap.

you are pretty cold jackfrost.. :eek:

WOW sounds like someone had a bad Christmas. I had a great one.

I have done a search of Schuzund clubs, just teh US ones. I was shocked at how many whites are actually in Schutzund. They are quite common actually. I also contated a few of the clubs. They also told me they are not as uncommon as most people think. And many excel at it. And some don't. Just like with any breed. Some do well some don't. If you don't want to do the REAL research yourself to see if these dogs are out there doing these things then stop attacking the ones that provide proof that they do. I gava only a couple of links to just show you that they do do this stuff. Those pages showed many different dogs doing different tasks and that is why I provided those links. I am not going to sit here all day to list the many sites there are showing these dogs are titles and do do the work that a GSD can do just because you are too lazy to do it for your self and choose to beleive rumours instead of fact.

Too me it looks like all you want to do is attack something, have something to hate. It is sad that you choose the white shepherd for that. I am no longer going to sit here and keep providing proof of the facts just so you can close you eyes and cover your ears and say No No No. I provided the proof. I provided the facts. For those truely wanting to learn I will continue the discussion. But all I get from you is you want to attack and fight. Not discuss. Oh well. Your loss.

I hope everyone is having as Merry a Christmas as I am.
Nicole

I can assure you my christmas was great.

Since you've done the search of Sch clubs that have whites, post the links please. I'm far from lazy, in fact I've titled a few dogs this year myself and you? Just wondering. I have lots of contact with sch clubs from the west coast, the east coast, and everything in between. Contact with LEO's MWD's, Importers, etc. and I think my "searches" for good dog's everyday has more than proven to me that a working WGSD is a very rare occurance. Again you give me nothing but words.

I have not chosen the white shepherd to hate, I could care less. I've chosen "BS" as the culprit. Trust me, BYB's of the GSD world don't get any love from me either, nor do the ones that have not proven their breeding stock thru working titles, or actual work.

you have not provided me any proof, save for all intents and purposes about 10 dogs over the past 30 years. I could find 10 JRT's with Sch titles over that time period as well. Don't get me wrong, i love a good JRT, but I don't think anybody is really going to argue that qualifies them as being able to do the same things as well or better than a GSD.

I asked if your dogs are titled? and No they are not. I saw that for myself. Are their parent's titled?

Have you produced any dogs that are now working? Titled?

again, I don't have to prove a negative. If you really want me to dig up the results from the past year or two and show you that there were very few if any WGSD's that were titled in that year, well, let's just say i'm not going to waste my time. You really expect me to to go and find all the sites for wgsd's again just to show you that their breeding stock are NOT titled? Sorry I don't have to prove a negative.

As the American white shepherd is bred primarily for therapy work, the titles you will generally see on an AWS are TDI, TT, CGN, CGC, etc. Nicole is breeding for therapy purposes. These titles basically do not mean anything to me -- a freaky dog can pass these tests. Hence why I wouldn't rely on titles when looking for a therapy puppy. I would rather meet the parents myself.

Those are certificates, not titles and I'm not aware of any breed clubs that use those as proof of breed worthiness. Which clubs use the TDI, or CGC or CGN as proof of breed worthiness? Just wondering?

I would rather meet the parents in any case, that's not the point.

I didn't ask specifically for titles, working dogs count, titles or not. ANy working dogs? and don't give me an example of s service dog that is so impt that it can be taken out of service without replacement to whelp and raise a litter for a month and a half. That's called a pet.

If you're going to make claims about white GSD's being smarter, more drive, and healthier, your darn right those titles mean everything. Put up or shut up, talk is cheap, so far that's all ive seen, excuses and words. Test your breeding stock or don't make hallow claims.

Nicole has stated that she was breeding for service dogs, now you say she is breeding for therapy dogs. There is a big difference, so which one is it?
Before getting a therapy dog you need your cgc, which Nicole has not said her dog had. How can you breed for anything if your dog is untitled. I have to agree with Jackfrost on this, all I've seen so far are 30 or 40 yr old links and pictures.
As for service dogs or therapy dogs there doesn't seem to be any that can pass cgc to become one.
Also there are absolutely no white GSD schH dogs. This I have checked out with our German friends who run a school for training schH. They have all the information from the other schools as they run together.
Maybe Nicole means that people train them by themselves for the fun of it (which can be very dangerous) but there are no graduates anywhere, nor any police dogs.
From what I have been told, the whites are lacking in temperament and nerves, therefore aren't suitable for much of any work.

Give it up wolfsoul. These two people have decided to live in teh dark. Let them. They are hurting no one. Anyone who honestly wants to learnt eh truth will read this thread and will see the proof I and others haev provided. Saying ther are NO police or Sch. White Shepherds is laughable to say the least. Notice how aggressive these two are in they posts. It is sad the hate they are showing. They do not want to learn the truth. They only want a fight. I have seen people like them before. They latch on to something and won't let go no matter teh proof they are shown. It is a waste of my time and yours to try and show them teh light. You and I an just about anyone else reading this thread will see the anger in their posts and will see that we do provide links. I am not going to sit here all day providing links because they do not want to do it themselves. I have much better things to do with my time. Just ignore them.

The white Shepherd is just that. A white Shepehrd. Anything a GSD can do a White Shepehrd can do. That is a fact. Genetic testing proved all teh old wives tails about whites to be false. It has been proven that Whites are just as healthy, intelligent, trainable and so forth as a GSD. Those are facts. If they choose to ignore facts let them.
Nicole

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Originally Posted by jackfrost

Which clubs use the TDI, or CGC or CGN as proof of breed worthiness?

If you're going to make claims about white GSD's being smarter, more drive, and healthier, your darn right those titles mean everything.

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I obtained my dog's CGN from CKC. No titles prove breed worthiness. Titles are just something that tell people you do stuff with your dog, and if you reply on them for proving breed worthiness, I caution you greatly, as no title will tell you such.

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Nicole has stated that she was breeding for service dogs, now you say she is breeding for therapy dogs. There is a big difference, so which one is it? Before getting a therapy dog you need your cgc

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Service dogs provide personal therapy -- thus making them therapy dogs. My dog is my service dog -- I still prefer calling her my therapy dogs. Makes me sound a hell of alot less helpless. Therapy,service,whatever. No, a dog does not need a CGC or CGN to be a therapy dog -- they do not need any titles. MY girl's mother was a therapy dog and went to nursing homes, and she did not have her CGN or CGC. All she had was her Can CH. My boy's grandfather was a therapy dog. All he had was his CDX.

Yes Nicole, you are right. I don't think I will continue. My breed's variety (the groenendael) suffers alot of hate and disrespect in the schutzhund and french ring venues because it is a black dog. I just hate seeing a colour disregarded just because other colours are "better." My co-breeder had to leave the schutzhund club because the people basically forced her out with their cruelty. Her dogs were black, therefore they were not good.

Wolfsoul I totlaly agree. I have seen examples in every type of titled dog where the dog has excelled in getting that title but because of temperment I would NEVER ever consider breeding the dog. Take for example show dogs. I have seen some outstanding examples conformation wise but the dogs temperments were awful but because they looked so good and had all teh titles they were still bred. I have seen some awsome Sch. dogs that also had awsome titles but off the field their temperments were unpredicatable and should not have been bred but were because they were Titled. Titles are great. Shows you do things, as you said, with your dogs. it is a peice of paper that proves your dogs can do that. But at the end of the day it is just a piece of paper. Great post Wolfsoul.
Nicole

Wolfsoul all it is is racism. That is it. That is how I am many other see it. When the rumors are proven false with genetic testing and the dogs have proven to do the same as the "proper colors" but a few still choose to spread lies and hate about them then it is just racism. Some people need something to hate and take their anger and fustration on. So base their excuses on the color of a dog.

You and I and most others know the truth or are learning the truth about our wonderful dogs. Nothing that people who resfuse to open their eyes and ears say can change that. You and I will continue to educate the ones who truely want to learn and that is what matters.

I am sorry your friend went through that.
Nicole