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...And there's member's on Grey talk that are nuetral and anti-racing as well, mainly because they don't like the gambling aspect of it or they work in the adoption trenches and see dogs come in in horrible shape. Like I said before you got GPL on one side and the racing industry on the other and the truth lies somewhere in between.
I don't know if this has been mentioned already, but there are also other greyhound message boards and the Greyhound-List that have a different ratio of pro vs. anti racing members/opinions.
GreyTalk is the one that the racing folks are concentrating most of their effort on.
Jay
I disagree. Go back and read some of the posts that used adjectives like "sick," "disgusting" and "inhumane" to describe greyhound racing.Quote:
Originally posted by aly
I don't know why it is automatically assumed that we don't know anything about it here. Not one person has ever denied that there is good in it. We have all acknowledged that.
Their "effort," Jay?Quote:
Originally posted by 7up
I don't know if this has been mentioned already, but there are also other greyhound message boards and the Greyhound-List that have a different ratio of pro vs. anti racing members/opinions.
GreyTalk is the one that the racing folks are concentrating most of their effort on.
You make it sound like a PR campaign---a concerted lobbying effort to spread propaganda and brainwash the masses.
What you are seeing is greyhound lovers of a different sort than you are used to seeing. GT people are finding out that racing people take cutesy pictures of their dogs, have little nicknames for them, and let them sleep in their beds.
We aren't hammer-wielding Neanderthals culling puppies for kicks as GPL likes to paint us.
I am pretty sure almost everyone who used one of those adjectives has come back and acknowledged that there is good in racing, but they were disgusted with the bad :) Some of us did get carried away at first after the post saying that there was NO bad in it so stronger words may have been used.Quote:
Originally posted by jcsperson
I disagree. Go back and read some of the posts that used adjectives like "sick," "disgusting" and "inhumane" to describe greyhound racing.
I say again, that the truth lies somewhere inbetween. The extremist end of the pro-racing faction perceives AR, ARA, and anyone who says anything negative, to be an enemy. If the industry was sufficiently policing itself, there would be very little negative publicity, and no need for anyone else to be concerned about it. It's a cop-out to keep using the GPL as an excuse.Quote:
Originally posted by jcsperson
Their "effort," Jay?
You make it sound like a PR campaign---a concerted lobbying effort to spread propaganda and brainwash the masses.
What you are seeing is greyhound lovers of a different sort than you are used to seeing. GT people are finding out that racing people take cutesy pictures of their dogs, have little nicknames for them, and let them sleep in their beds.
We aren't hammer-wielding Neanderthals culling puppies for kicks as GPL likes to paint us.
Of course, 4D meat is perfectly safe, and anyone who wants to google Alabama Rot will find the connection.
who said their was NO bad in greyhound racing? I did not plan to get into this again, but I shall take a quote from my post that got attacked in the first place:
Quote:
there ARE greys that are treated badly
You also said that they are rarely in danger of being put down, and in your very first post in this thread it SEEMED as if you were saying that ALL racing greyhounds get massages, one on one time, high quality food, and all get placed in homes/rescues.Quote:
Originally posted by cali
who said their was NO bad in greyhound racing? I did not plan to get into this again, but I shall take a quote from my post that got attacked in the first place:
I think that's what Aly meant.
Your wish sounds promising, but the problem is that the number of greyhounds that actually participate in lure coursing is very small. Right now the greyhound gene pool is genetically diverse with more than 500 sires and thousands of brood bitches representing 46 greyhound families.Quote:
Originally posted by K9soul
Ok in all honesty, I really wish it would become a leisure sport and not a money-making business because I think the fact that money and gambling is involved is what makes it, IN MY OPINION, have more potential for some owners to make the dollar their top priority to the detriment of their dogs. I feel the same about horse racing. Now where my education is limited is just how much money is typically involved in it, and how easy it is to "make it big" by having successful racers. I fully admit to being uneducated on that aspect.
By contrast, the AKC registers only about 160 dogs per year. They're pedigrees are saturated with the same bloodlines.
Here is a typical example I clicked on at random on Greyhound-data.com:
http://www.greyhound-data.com/db.php?i=351773
Note its ancestors:
Treetops Hawk 4*4*4*4*4*4*5*5*6
Treetops Flicka of Canfield 5*5*5*5*5*5*5*5*6*6*6*6
Treetops Golden Falcon 3*3*4
Courtmoor Christmas Star 3*3
Treetops Penelope of Canfield 4*4*5*5
Barum Carlanga Conquest 5*5*6*6*6*6*6*6*6
Parcancady Dancer 5*6*6*6*6*6*6*6*6
Parcancady Lady 5*6*6*6*6*6*6*6
Viverdon Fancy Lady 5*6
Compare that disaster with the most tightly linebred NGA greyhound I know:
http://www.greyhound-data.com/db.php?i=261494
Fresh Approach 3*3
My Unicorn 3*4
Final Approach 4*4*4
Onie Jones 4*4*4
Carbella 4*4
It doesn't take a dog breeder to see the difference. AKC greyhounds are dangerously inbred. At 160 dogs a year it qualifies as a rare breed.
Right now, the AKC breeders have the luxury of being able to outcross occasionally to NGA blood. If racing went away completely that "safety valve" would be lost as breedings would plummet. Greyhound racing is the "family business" for 100s of breeders. If they could not make a living at it they would be completely disinclined to continue the expensive proposition of breeding greyhounds---they'd be too busy putting their lives back together and looking for work. Some of these folks are three and four generation breeders whose families shaped the greyhound we have today. Their breeding stock is a storehouse of greyhound genetic history. With these professionals out of the business the breed would be left to the backyard breeder with all that portends.
ok, its not what I intended I know and freely admit that not all racing greys are treated wonderfully, and I did not intend to say that, I did not know people thought I believed that all were treated wonderfully so when I saw alys post I figered I would clear that up lol
Looks like there were misunderstandings all around then :)
So we all finally agree that there is SOME good and SOME bad and we will do our best to help the ones in the bad situations!!! *phew*
Alabama Rot is the same as e coli bacterial infections in humans. Like the celebrated cases in the Seattle area where cooked USDA grade A was mishandled and undercooked, the 4D connection to Alabama Rot is another sensationalized aspect of the ARA story.Quote:
Originally posted by Love Greyhounds
I say again, that the truth lies somewhere inbetween. The extremist end of the pro-racing faction perceives AR, ARA, and anyone who says anything negative, to be an enemy. If the industry was sufficiently policing itself, there would be very little negative publicity, and no need for anyone else to be concerned about it. It's a cop-out to keep using the GPL as an excuse.
Of course, 4D meat is perfectly safe, and anyone who wants to google Alabama Rot will find the connection.
Do you know how many cases of this occur per year? I don't, but the the number almost certainly is very small. The vast majority of farms and kennels have never had a single case. I've been involved with greyhounds for 11 years and have actual personal knowledge of a single case and I have met, handled or seen 1,000s of greyhounds.
Just as in the Seattle hamburger situation, the problem almost certainly has more to do with mishandling the meat rather than the meat itself.
Martin, do you realize how close your description fits a certain, recently expelled greyhound farmer?Quote:
We aren't hammer-wielding Neanderthals culling puppies for kicks as GPL likes to paint us.
Jay
The inbreeding that goes on with AKC show breeders is something I do know about and I find it disgusting and alarming. Some people try to go to a "reputable" AKC breeder in order to get a quality dog of a particular breed, probably not realizing how polluted the bloodlines often are, though I believe some breeds are worse than others, and again not all breeders participate in inbreeding.
That issue is definitely something I feel needs to be regulated...I don't understand why they just don't disallow inbred dogs to be registered and shown. At least then "AKC registered such and such" would mean something..
But then this is a whole different issue and really doesn't pertain to this thread's topic.
Just a little information about this whole 4D meat.
I've worked with greyhounds within the industry for about 10 years now.
The words Alabama Rot are thrown around way to much. I had a trainer call me the other day and say he thought one of the dogs had the "rot"
Turns out the dog had a small nick that he didn't see, got infected and created a wound.
How many of you have missed a small nick or scratch, that you never knew existed and then a day or two later you have an infection in the cut.
In my 10 with the greyhounds I have NEVER seen a case of Alabama Rot. There may have been things that people thought it was but turns out it wasn't.
Just a little more information about Alabama Rot from the book Care of the Racing Greyhound by Linda Blythe, James Gannon and A, MOrrie Craig
"The cause of the disease is not specifically known and may differ from area to area, but bacteria or bacterial toxin invading therough the skin layers is believed to be the basic problem."
So now you have a weakened system this is when ecoli or other bacteria will take it's opportunity to attack the system.
So just like humans a healthy human can eat raw or rare meat and not have to many problems. Normally at most get a bit sick and throw up or something.
But take an older person or a very younge person, or a person with a weak system and give them raw or rare meat the the possibility of greater sickness will come about.
That's all, also I haven't posted in this thread for a while and just wanted to say
HELLO :)
Actually, I was alluding to Grey2K's position paper on greyhound racing that was the centerpiece of their attempt to ban greyhound racing in Massachusetts. It alleged that the preferred method for culling puppies was by "bashing" them. It was written by a nitwit lawyer who simply dredged up stuff from ARA websites. When it quoted actual mainstream media sources, the articles quoted ARA spokespersons or groups, but offered no substantial evidence that culling actually exists.Quote:
Originally posted by 7up
Martin, do you realize how close your description fits a certain, recently expelled greyhound farmer?
You're right, though. Jerry Calhoun flipped out and killed a greyhound with a hammer. He was reported to the authorities by racing people, the dogs on his farm were taken care of by racing people, and he was banned for life from the NGA.
Hey, nice job on the poll. Caroline was all indignant about me asking Global members who were also GTers to vote in the GT poll, but conveniently left unmentioned you being here recruiting people to participate. :rolleyes:
I did that for no other reason than to annoy you. :p
Jay
Thank you for another perspective. It gives me more to think about. I've never known anyone that is involved in Greyhound racing. I don't know that we have it in California.Quote:
Originally posted by jcsperson
Hi everybody. This is my first post here...
Before addressing any issues, I want to introduce myself to everyone. My name is Martin Roper. I'm a small-time racing greyhound owner and long-time pet owner. I'm not a trainer or farmer---my expertise in greyhounds is mostly in the area of greyhound pedigrees and breeding. I am on the staff of the world's largest breed database, http://www.greyhound-data.com/index.htm. My work in the field is accessed by breeders across the U.S. and even overseas. I am very closely affiliated with a nearby greyhound farm for which I make many of the breeding decisions.
My visit here was prompted by a visit to GreyTalk by several PTers recently. Some have come back here and reported that we are saying that they know "nothing," or are "ignorant" and "stupid." What they failed to reveal was their own behavior over there. Most posted anonymously, so it's hard to say who said it, but one PTer proclaimed him/herself to be "completely educated" in greyhound racing and proceeded to rattle off a litany of fallacies. Considering that there are greyhound trainers, farmers, breeders and adoption reps who have decades of experience in the breed, you can only imagine what kind of reaction that got.
Let me be the first to admit that I was the one who used the term "ignorant." If one looks in the dictionary one will find that it means, "lacking education or knowledge," or "unaware or uninformed." The statements made by many of the "guests" over there, and indeed some members over here, clearly show a lack of knowledge of the facts.
I see many of my GT friends (even you, Jay) have done a fine job representing greyhounds in a very factual manner. The truth is that those who represent the breed can be better custodians of greyhounds. What some people on the lunatic fringe of the AR/ARA world are saying, however, hurls the most outrageous accusations at greyhound racing. Judging by some of the posts here, a lot of that seems to have stuck with people whose only source of knowledge is "a guy I met who has greys who has no reason to lie" or "a web site about greyhounds."
I hear at length the term "the racing industry" bantered around like there is some single entity, some CEO or board of directors, some oligarchy of corporations that "runs the show." The truth is that there are some 400 kennel owners, 400 farmers, hundreds of trainers, and 3,000 NGA members who act as individuals. Each of them is responsible for his or her own behavior.
The breeding and raising of Greyhounds is regulated by the NGA. They are the most tightly regulated dog breed on earth. Farms are regularly inspected by the NGA. Farms found to be deficient can be fined, suspended or even shut down. Egregious violations are met with a lifetime ban from the NGA. I invite comparison with the AKC to see if similar standards are enforced.
Once the dogs are at the track, they come under the scrutiny of the State Gaming Commissions. Kennels and tracks are regularly inspected and the dogs are randomly checked for illegal substances.
Add in the scrutiny of the ARA crowd and the compliant press that hangs upon their every word, and greyhound racing has a light shone on it like few areas in the dog world.
It might interest some of you that I started out adopting a dog from and volunteering for an AR group. I raised $1,000s for them and relayed what they told me far and wide. Without having seen greyhound racing with my own two eyes I had nothing to go on other than what they told me.
It's been quite a journey. A couple visits to a track ("nice---nothing really scary here") to a kennel ("hey---this is nicer than my HS football locker-room!), to a farm (you mean, these pups get to stay with their moms until three months of age and then stay together as a litter 'til 12 months instead of getting jerked out at 8 weeks to live with a human family?").
Pardon my pride here, but greyhounds are the most carefully bred canines on the planet. Their bloodlines go back to the 1700s. They are bred to a performance standard, not one of appearance. Unlike its AKC cousin, of which less than 200 are whelped per year and are grotesquely inbred, racing greyhounds are bred in sufficient numbers to keep the gene pool diverse and healthy for the forseeable future.
Rather than go back and debunk, one by one, all the previously posted errors, I invite you to ask questions and my fellow greyhound enthusiasts will try to answer them as clearly as possible.
Long, I know, but thanks for reading.
How thoughtful of you.Quote:
Originally posted by 7up
I did that for no other reason than to annoy you. :p
A recent study showed that every Sheltie on Earth is the genetic equivalent of a cousin. Using a scale called the Coefficient of Inbreeding, a process I won't go into here (do a Google search for an explanation), one can figure out how closely bred our animals are. Most AKC dogs are highly inbred.Quote:
Originally posted by K9soul
The inbreeding that goes on with AKC show breeders is something I do know about and I find it disgusting and alarming. Some people try to go to a "reputable" AKC breeder in order to get a quality dog of a particular breed, probably not realizing how polluted the bloodlines often are, though I believe some breeds are worse than others, and again not all breeders participate in inbreeding.
The racing greyhound is one of the most genetically pure breeds because it is bred to a performance standard rather than a written breed standard. I study the methods of the great thoroughbred breeders like Federico Tesio. He claimed that if one crossed a TB with a Standard Bred horse it would take 20 generations to bring the progeny back up to the level of the TB in that mating.
Over the centuries all sorts of crosses were attempted to add certain traits to the greyhound, the most famous of which were Lord Orford's Bulldog crosses in the 1700s. All were miserable failures despite claims by some that our present-day greyhounds descend from those crosses.
If one looks at photographs of the great 19th century coursing dogs and compares them with contemporary AKC or NGA dogs, it's pretty clear which has remained true to type. Throw a racing blanket over one of those old coursers and it would not look out of place in the Post Parade at Derby Lane. AKC greyhounds, on the other hand, look to me like statues of greyhounds stylized by the sculptor to suit his artistic whim. To my way of thinking, they represent a genetic dead-end for the breed while the blood of the great coursing dogs flows through every racer.
It might interest you to know that greyhound racing began in Emeryville, California in 1919. It flourished there until its popularity became so great the better financed horse tracks and owners conspired with legislatures to get it banned because of alleged ties with organized crime. The real reason was that greyhound racing was kicking the ponies' butts at the box office. There has not been greyhound racing in CA since, but neighbors Oregon, Arizona and Mexico all have tracks.Quote:
Originally posted by Tonya
Thank you for another perspective. It gives me more to think about. I've never known anyone that is involved in Greyhound racing. I don't know that we have it in California.
This is VERY interesting...Quote:
I study the methods of the great thoroughbred breeders like Federico Tesio. He claimed that if one crossed a TB with a Standard Bred horse it would take 20 generations to bring the progeny back up to the level of the TB in that mating.
I guess my purpose for pointing this out was to debunk some of the theories that greyhounds were crossed with Terriers or Bulldogs (Orford) to make them more aggressive. The prey drive gained would be more than offset by the speed lost and it would take several generations to get the speed back by which time the aggression gained would be so diluted as to be meaningless.Quote:
Originally posted by sherpayluvsgreys
This is VERY interesting...
It would have made more sense to breed high-prey greyhounds to other game greyhounds to get the aggression they needed while retaining the speed.
If twenty generations would be lost by breeding a TB to a Standardbred, very similar horses conformationally, imagine how many generations would be lost breeding a Greyhound to a Bulldog. I don't doubt that people tried it---I do doubt that the progeny of any of these crosses survive in our present day pedigrees.
Quote:
Originally posted by 7up
I did that for no other reason than to annoy you. :p
Jay
:rolleyes:
WHOA! I had no idea Greyhound racing took place in...EMERYVILLE?!! Wow. Have you seen what it looks like now *ROTFLMAO*. Malls, honey---everywhere-malls...I live 20 minutes away from Emeryville and often go there to shop.Quote:
Originally posted by jcsperson
It might interest you to know that greyhound racing began in Emeryville, California in 1919. It flourished there until its popularity became so great the better financed horse tracks and owners conspired with legislatures to get it banned because of alleged ties with organized crime. The real reason was that greyhound racing was kicking the ponies' butts at the box office. There has not been greyhound racing in CA since, but neighbors Oregon, Arizona and Mexico all have tracks.
Do you know the exact location of the former track? Wow, that's amazing.:eek:
... :eek:!!Quote:
Originally posted by dogs_4_me
:rolleyes:
I don't. Sorry.Quote:
Originally posted by Giselle
WHOA! I had no idea Greyhound racing took place in...EMERYVILLE?!! Wow. Have you seen what it looks like now *ROTFLMAO*. Malls, honey---everywhere-malls...I live 20 minutes away from Emeryville and often go there to shop.
Do you know the exact location of the former track? Wow, that's amazing.:eek:
You might try to look up a local historical society---almost every area has one---and ask them if they have more info on the track.
EXHIBIT: "Emeryville's Wild Gambling Past"
http://www.oaklandlibrary.org/Seasonal/Sections/ohrshowoak_emeryville.html
Emeryville Historical Society
Donald Hausler (510) 652-8276
Nancy Smith (510) 652-8276
I think everyone who read through all this carefully got a pretty good education. Most folks found out quite a lot that they never knew and many assumptions that they had made were shown to be founded on misinformation. The lesson learned is to never base your beliefs on hearsay or propaganda.
I never did figure out who here was "completely educated in greyhounds," the self-description that person used on GreyTalk. For whatever reason this individual chose not to reveal him/herself.
If anyone has any questions about greyhounds as a breed or greyhound racing, I can be found pretty easily over at GT.
Thanks for reading.
I had thought that the person who claimed to be educated was K9Soul -- and she joined the board, thus revealing herself??
I kind of forget what was said in that thread (and I wish everyone was capable of doing so... as to move on.) but I do believe who posted that mentioned they had a Greyhound mix, which would be K9Soul?
I could be wrong though. :)
Do you think maybe we can all let this thread die down and sink into the history of the board, and possibly share your pets -- comments on others -- and contribute to the rest of the board instead of sticking to this thread and other greyhound topics? I'm know i'm not the only one who would like for this to happen.
It would be nice if you guys to stick around and contribute to all of PT, and I appreciate those who have. :)
I've been waiting for that myself, Kay.
Actually, everything that I had previously thought was only confirmed. I never said that every single racer was bad, but there are a lot of bad ones out there. I have a problem with the bad ones and I have a problem with the gambling aspect. I have a problem of the mass-production of these dogs and I have a problem of them becoming disposable after they lose too much (not implying this is ALL of them). So all my opinions and beliefs remian the same. It has been fun talking to a majority of the people who came from Greytalk though and I hope they stay (doesn't look like you are).Quote:
Originally posted by jcsperson
I think everyone who read through all this carefully got a pretty good education. Most folks found out quite a lot that they never knew and many assumptions that they had made were shown to be founded on misinformation. The lesson learned is to never base your beliefs on hearsay or propaganda.
I never did figure out who here was "completely educated in greyhounds," the self-description that person used on GreyTalk. For whatever reason this individual chose not to reveal him/herself.
If anyone has any questions about greyhounds as a breed or greyhound racing, I can be found pretty easily over at GT.
Thanks for reading.
I was one of the ones who posted Anonymously on the thread that was deleted. I didn't think to reveal myself only because no one there knew me anyway. I also didn't want to take the time to register because I don't have a Greyhound myself and this board takes up all of my forum time anyway. I am one of the ones that said I know Greyhounds - the BREED, not so much as the racing industry. I already stated in a previous post in this thread what I thought of the assumption that we don't know anything about Greyhounds here, so I won't repeat it.
I think I've said all I'm going to say on this subject. Its been great talking to people who have come over and given their opinions in a respectful manner. I hope to hear more from you in other threads on this forum!
I have never been to a dog race, nor would I ever go to a dog race. (or a horse race, for that matter)
Just for the record I was not the person who stated that I was completely educated on greyhounds. I'm not sure who said that, most of the people posting as guest did not say who they were over here.
I did learn things, especially different perspectives, but I also still have my own opinions and views on it all, mainly that the truth lies in the middle between the two extremes. I didn't want to keep arguing and stating my thoughts here as I felt I had done that enough already. I did enjoy coming to understand different perspectives, but no longer wish to debate the issue :)
i belong to the same message board and instead of just believing what others write, i beg you to please go out and volunteer for groups, and go to tracks farms and kennels, get very invovled adn see FOR YOURSELF waht is going on.Quote:
Originally posted by cali
I belong to greyhound message board and I have been there far longer then I have been on this board, I have learned a great deal from these people who are by the way rescuers as well. I hardly think I know all, but just because I have differning opinions hardly means I dont know anything, frankly I will continue to research and form my OWN opinions, which I have been doing for years now. I dont follow the crowd, and I dont buy into so called "statistics" that people make up on the spot. and frankly YOU are the one that needs to wake up and see things from another perspective, evedently you are to narow minded to look on the other side :rolleyes:
anyone can write anything on a message board or on the internet, when you see with your own eyes bad conditions it really wakes you up.
I think the whole point is to realize that there is a lot of good and evil in just about any endeavor where animals are involved (i'm including humans in that description).
Never in a dofgjifdhn08hykfnhoifhypsjohlkdfhgoisjg billion years would I go to one of those cruel, stupid races!~
this thread is old theres people that replied to it that havnt been on in eaons please don't bring it up again it's just going to make conflict AGAIN. And I know your new but don't go finding old subjects and bumoing them up.
Please view. And consider the following.
http://greyhounds.org/
If you had read through this thread, you'd see that site had already been posted about and discussed. You deleted your other greyhound racing threads, why are you bumping up buried ones now? :confused: You have obviously not read what the greyhound people have had to say about it here.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyhoundGirl