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You think Bush and Cheney were "running and hiding" in the hours directly after the attacks? Puh-Lease. They were hidden, safe and in control. Just like protocol dictates when such an event occurs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary
Who called her brave? Who DIDN'T? There were just so many soundbites I heard and so many articles I read just gushing praise on her for being so brave.
So, perhaps you might address the question now? I doubt it though, that is just not your style.
Ya know what? I do not want my children to have to fight this enemy either. But if we don not defeat then now, they will. Running away without victory will doom us to another generation having to fight them. Call it a curse, but I have seen this enemy face to face. I have been in the same room as some of them before. I understand what motivates them. Reasons why we are there beside (it is totally irrelevant now) we MUST win and not let the politicians turn this into another Vietnam, all in the name of gaining power.Quote:
....I just don't want my son to have to go back....
Sure, Hank might make YOUR Son safe, but she would make your grandchildren have to fight.
A world safe for all people? What exactly does this mean? But other than that... You don't have those things now? Who do you think should provide all the things you listed? The Government? Do you really think our Government should be responsible for those things?Quote:
I want a world that is safe for all peope, clean water, clean air, food on the table, a steady income, retirement benefits, health care, college for my daughter.....
You shouldn't be having a go at Monica old mate. I think you will find that this proud mother of a veteran would agree with every word that you say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckstop31
I am also a veteran, and I believe that another loss because of politicians would be fatal to the western world.
As for provision of these things she asks for by the government, no, I think that is NOT what she meant. Marigold is quite aware of what it costs to be free, and probably more of a patriot than I have met in quite a while. I believe that she is aware of the lies and deceit put across to the public by prospective presidential candidates. So who is one to choose???
They are all after the power, the job, the bucks, the perks that go with it.
I suppose the best anyone can hope for is their own personal choice.
k ???
Wombat
My comments are not a stab at Monica. I could care less about her. Actually, I felt bad for her at the time. She was young, naive and got taken advantage of. My comments are simply about how Hillary handled the situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by wombat2u2004
Fair enough I suppose... Still, I would like to see Marigolds comments here. I just hope that her desire to end the conflict are not selfish ones. By that I mean the simple fact that she wants her son to be safe. Of course ANY mother wants their children to be safe. But how safe will our world be if we run in the face of this enemy?Quote:
I think you will find that this proud mother of a veteran would agree with every word that you say.
I am also a veteran, and I believe that another loss because of politicians would be fatal to the western world.
As for provision of these things she asks for by the government, no, I think that is NOT what she meant. Marigold is quite aware of what it costs to be free, and probably more of a patriot than I have met in quite a while. I believe that she is aware of the lies and deceit put across to the public by prospective presidential candidates. So who is one to choose???
They are all after the power, the job, the bucks, the perks that go with it.
I suppose the best anyone can hope for is their own personal choice.
k ???
Wombat
Also, just for the record, I am quite disappointed with the way the current administration has horribly mis-managed this conflict. I HATE it when politicians play politics with the lives of our soldiers. If a person REALLY 'supports the troops' they will want them to WIN.
They are an enemy in part because we attacked & bombed them withoutQuote:
Originally Posted by Puckstop31
truth that they had harmed us on 9/11.
Just wanted say that my children are not in the military, but if they were,
you would find me to be the most selfish woman on earth.I do understand
Marigolds comments very well. :)
Now let me start by saying.... I do not have children in the military.... for obvious reasons lol. And I think the worst pain in the world would be for a parent to outlive their child.... IMO, there is nothing that can compare.
BUT.... after knowing my mother in law and talking to her about my husbands past deployments I am of the frame of mind that if you aren't supporting their mission you aren't supporting them. She also went through the "not knowing where he was" the "not being able to speak with him" the "constant worry" but she has never and I don't think she would EVER say that she hated their cause or their mission. She was just proud and nothing else. She didn't tell him she was proud and then behind his back talk about how ridiculous it was that he was doing something she claimed she was proud of him for. She passed her time by making care packages for the troops.... writing letters and sending cookies. She was always nothing but supportive. I truly admire her strength and courage.
NOW ... before anyone gets their panties in a twist ... I am not in anyway attacking anyone who wants their children home.... to not want your children home would be a far worse thing. and as mismanaged as this war has been.... our problems with the middle east did not start after 9/11. it just came to a head after 9/11. Troops have been over in the middle east for YEARS before 9/11 was even a twinkle in anyone's eye. To blame the issues over there on one man is simply.... silly. he just decided to do something about it and screwed up. But the problems were there long before... the fighting was there long before... and if we just pull out.... the fighting will still be there long after.
Frankly, Hillary's resolution for this war scares the crap out of me. To simply pull out would be detrimental IMO. Call me selfish but I would rather the war be fought over there.... than to be brought over here because someone thought retreating would just stop it all.
I am married to a VietNam Veteran - 2 tours over there. I am the mother of a Navy pilot - retired.
The VietNam War was a mistake, and this present conflict is even worse. We had no business invading Iraq - they had nothing to do with 9/11. This war has been about money, oil, power and ego from the beginning. I call it George's Folly, and the sooner we are out of there, the safer we will be.
The sooner he is out of office, the safer we will be.
IMHO.
My father had 3 tours. What is your point? Even better how about you spell Vietnam correctly...Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace
How do you think we will be safer if we leave Iraq? Also, yes Iraq probably had nothing to do with 9/11, directly. But that was not the reason we went anyway. Granted, the reasons touted by the administration where wrong and stupid from the start. Too bad nobody had the guts to call it like it was. But now the reason WHY we are there does not matter anymore. We ARE there.
I cannot wait to see your answer as to how we will be safe if we leave defeated? 10 to 1 you show just how ignorant most Americans are as to just how serious this is. This is about WAY more than George W. Bush. Curse him for screwing this up so bad.
Look at things without your prism of hate for the President.
You must watch to much TV. You obviously do not know anything about this enemy.Quote:
Originally Posted by lizbud
What is your freedom worth to you then? What would you pay? Think about it a second before you answer. Think about what our freedom really is.Quote:
Just wanted say that my children are not in the military, but if they were,
you would find me to be the most selfish woman on earth.I do understand
Marigolds comments very well. :)
Would YOU die for it? Or is it better to be a slave?
As I said, I was stating my own opinion - just as everyone else here has stated theirs. Why are you so defensive? And why do you not respect that we all may differ? I'm not trying to change anyone's mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckstop31
The VietNam War was a mistake, and this present conflict is even worse. We had no business invading Iraq - they had nothing to do with 9/11. This war has been about money, oil, power and ego from the beginning. I call it George's Folly, and the sooner we are out of there, the safer we will be.
The sooner he is out of office, the safer we will be.
I totally agree with you Grace.
Everyone knows now that George Bush and his pals lied to us about the WMD. We were led into this war on false pretenses. Our own president lied to us. Our friends around the world do not support us, they have no respect for Bush. Laying to us and endangering our people is not being a good leader, or a good man. If someone such as Hilary voted for the war it was because Bush gave false statements. She like most people belived him, that was her mistake. I sure she won't make it again.
I totally support every military personal. That does not mean I have to support the war. I pray for their safety and do what I can to help them all come home safe. If I am being selfish wanting my son safe, well then be it so. Every sane mom wants that. There are mothers in the Middle East that encourge their sons and daughters to strap bombs on themselves and blow up as many innocent victims as possible. I do not can not understand this.
If you knew me you would know how proud of my son I am. He has so many talents, he is such a good man. He served his country proudly and in fact still does. I am behind him 100% but I don't want him to have to go overseas and suffer both physically and mentally for a lie. People don't understand war, they think it is over for you when you return, it is not. The things you see, hear, smell are with you a lifetime. People talk about the stress of 9/11 well if you are in a war zone 9/11 is EVERYDAY and everyday you are in the Towers watching people you love die. That is war. We as a nation suffered and wept for our people on 9/11, more soldiers have died overseas for this war then died in the towers. It was a horrible thing that happened that day. And it is a horrible thing that is happening to our children and husbands now. One of my best friend's husband just came back after serving a year. He is a different man. Gone is the sweet, loving father and husband, in his place is an angry, bitter, frightened shell of a man. I don't know if their marriage will surive. That is war. No man or woman who serves is ever the same. No family is ever like it was. As the strongest country on this planet we should be the peacemakers. Instead we have a president that lied to us and led us into a war, killing our people, damaging families and leading to disrespect through out the world.
As for the question what is freedom worth to me? Freedom does not have to come by war, it can come by kindness as well.
Puckstop wrote: "10 to 1 you show just how ignorant most Americans are as to just how serious this is. This is about WAY more than George W. Bush. Curse him for screwing this up so bad."
Yup...I gotta agree with that one. Too many heads in the sand.
Wombat
I am going out on a limb here with a statement with which many will not agree. I personally don't think Bush lied to the American people. Just think about it for a minute. If he knew beforehand that there were no WMD how long did he think he could keep up the charade? Wouldn't he have realized that the minute we invaded them the truth would come to light and he'd look like a fool or, worse yet, a liar. Come on, I don't know anyone who would put themselves in that position. I believe he was given inaccurate information and acted upon it. Of course then the blame for that can be leveled at him for choosing those people in the first place. His fault, in my opinion, was having no exit strategy. I hope that the next president can bring this to a close (hopefully before then). I just don't see Hillary being that president.
Since this thread has really derailed...Quote:
Originally Posted by Marigold2
"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003 | Source
"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002 | Source
"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998 | Source
"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998 | Source
"We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 1, 1998 | Source
"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998 | Source
"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton.
- (D) Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, others, Oct. 9, 1998 | Source
"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998 | Source
"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999 | Source
"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002 | Source
"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source
"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002 | Source
"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002 | Source
"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002 | Source
"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002 | Source
"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002 | Source
"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002 | Source
EVERYBODY was duped by Saddam Hussein.
While a nice thought to have, both human nature and history disagree with you. Freedom always has a high cost.Quote:
As for the question what is freedom worth to me? Freedom does not have to come by war, it can come by kindness as well.
I agree with you Pam, you are so very right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pam
Wombat